Passenger Car Recommendations

First step is to find out what railroads served those towns. You can search the web for maps of the likely railroads, PRR, Erie, Lackawanna, Reading, etc. Up to around 1940 they likely would have been mostly all heavyweight cars. Later mixed trains. Madison is a fictional name for heavyweights but the cars were simply heavy weights. Erie had some cars mostly unique to them called Stillwells though not sure they have been made in three rail yet.

Pete

For Connellsville during that time period, Golden Gate Depot PRR P70 coaches would be perfect.

Hello BillYo414, looking at the Official Guide of the Railways from September 1951 it shows the B&O had Passenger Service to Connellsville, PA. It was also served by the PRR, P&LE, P&WV, and WM but ONLY freight services.

I believe Connellsville was on the B&O main line to Pittsburgh and beyond so maybe some B&O guys can chime in with more information as to cars used in the years you're looking at.

russ

Connellsville was on the B&O main and was the route of the many name trains including the Capitol Limited, the Ambassador, the Columbian, and the Washingtonian to name a few. 

B&O passenger consists are really interesting as they didn't have many matched trains like their Main competitors for the Chicago-East coast market in the PRR and the NYC.  Trains were generally heavyweight cars and operated fairly late into the passenger era with the big name trains getting the newer equipment like the Capitol.  However, B&O took great pride in the quality of their service and the Mount Clare shops modernized many of their heavyweights over the years. 

You really can't go too wrong with what cars you choose.  The current GGD offering of the Capitol Limited is as accurate as you will get in O scale and their heavyweight offerings of coaches and 12-1 / 8-1-2 Pullman Standard Sleepers are very consistent with what you would see on a B&O train.  However, understanding that this is not in everyone's budget, nor do they fit on every layout the Atlas Premier offerings, or the Lionel 18" heavyweights are good stand-ins.

I have a few B&O passenger cars in my fleet including a Weaver PRR B60b in late simplified B&O blue and yellow paint and this GGD 12-1 Pullman in the classic B&O paint scheme designed by Otto Kuhler.

The B&O certainly had colorful and classy trains.

I have a video made in 1951 by the Kodak Photography Club that documents two passenger trains leaving Rochester for Pittsburgh by way of Salamanca on the previous Buffalo, Rochester, and Pittsburgh tracks.

Both are pulled by Pacifics with the first having a heavyweight baggage and coach and the second having a baggage and two coaches. The cars are all blue with yellow stripes with one car having the gray window panel. One engine has the light color (white??) boiler and square coal tender and the other is painted blue with a Vanderbilt tender. A third train is seen coming from Buffalo lead by steam and with four gray and blue cars so the paint schemes overlapped.  I think this was taken the last year of B&O passenger service from Rochester. Probably typical of short line passenger service them

The video is called “Vanishing American” but the source I got it from has no more that I am aware of.

Pete

Billy - Without a doubt the GGD B&O passenger cars are the gold standard!  Unfortunately for me GGD cars are out of my budget range.  In addition the GGD cars would not be able to negotiate the curves of my layout.  

I grew up on the B&O's Washington Division between Baltimore and DC.  As a youth I saw many of the B&O's premier passenger trains and locals come whizzing by my favorite chosen train watching spot.  I used to climb a signal tower just so I could see into the strata dome car .. most likely the Capitol Limited.  

Since these two B&O Premier trains passed through Connelsville ... You may be interested in reading this book by Joe Welsh " Baltimore & Ohio's Capitol Limited and National Limited" published by Voyageur Press.  It documents these two train's histories complete with photos of cars and locomotives used throughout the train's history.

  Another book of interest would be "The Royal Blue Line" by B&O historian Herbert Harwood .. published by Greenberg.   Also " The Baltimore and Ohio Railroad"  by Reynold and Oroszi  published by Voyageur Press.

To Jonathan's point, I always found the B&O passenger trains to be made up of interesting equipment ... mostly a mix heavy weight cars that were reconditioned and given a streamlined appearance by Mt. Clare Shops in Baltimore.  Occasionally  there would be a light weight stream lined car or two in the consist.  B&O didn't purchase many streamlined passenger cars directly from manufactures.  Instead they chose to refurbish and upgrade existing heavy weight cars to give a streamlined appearance.  

A B&O passenger train of particular beauty was the Cincinnatian designed by Olive Dennis,  a design engineer employed by the B&O.  She did a terrific job designing the interior and exterior of this train.  P7 Pacifics purchased by the B&O in 1927 were given a streamlined shroud which gave the locomotive a sleek Art Deco look.  The 5 car train was inaugurated in December of 1946 running between Baltimore and Cincinnati and vice versa during daylight hours.

Good luck in assembling your B&O fleet of passenger equipment.  

Here are some photos of part of my B&O fleet.

18 inch coach by K line.

18 inch Station Sounds Diner " Martha Washington" by Lionel.  Although this car was assigned to the Columbian which ran to St. Louis it may have occasionally been assigned to B&O passenger trains passing through Connellsville?  BTW -B&O's Columbian was the first air conditioned passenger train in the U.S.

As Johnathan mentioned regarding the B60b RPO by Weaver; here is my Weaver B&O RPO car.  Note:  I believe this livery to be after1960.  I think ( and I could be wrong here ) this livery was adapted after the 1963 B&O and C&O merger.  I just thought I'd show it anyway even though the livery may go beyond your historic window of time.    Livery aside, this type of RPO car would have definitely seen service during the period you inquired about.  

I don't think there were real passenger cars called 'Madison cars'. The only Madison cars I'm familiar with are what are also sometimes called Irvington cars - semi-scale Lionel passenger cars first introduced in the late 1930s. They were fairly well-detailed cars, but a bit smaller than full scale cars to allow them to go around tight three-rail curves, but still look OK with a scale-sized Hudson.

https://ogrforum.com/topic/wha...-scale-passenger-car

@wjstix posted:

I don't think there were real passenger cars called 'Madison cars'. The only Madison cars I'm familiar with are what are also sometimes called Irvington cars - semi-scale Lionel passenger cars first introduced in the late 1930s. They were fairly well-detailed cars, but a bit smaller than full scale cars to allow them to go around tight three-rail curves, but still look OK with a scale-sized Hudson.

https://ogrforum.com/topic/wha...-scale-passenger-car

The so-called Madison cars were produced in 1946 through1950. They're actually heavyweight cars, and were a three-car set, constructed of bakelite, and the car names Lionel used, and lettered on the sides of the cars, were Irvington, Madison and Manhattan. Those names were used because Irvington and Madison were local towns near Lionel's New Jersey corporate office and manufacturing facility, while Manhattan was borrowed from their main sales office in Manhattan, New York. As a shortened name, the set just ended up being called the Irvington cars, or - more commonly - the Madison cars.

The most beautiful B&O passenger cars I've seen are the 18" streamlined aluminum set Lionel produced back in 2004, I believe. This is a lousy picture - when actually seen in person the cars are stunning in appearance, at least to me. Also their paint job is a dead ringer for the prototype. There's a reason these cars are so hard to find.

@BillYo414 posted:

What style of passenger car would have been used in the small coal towns of Appalachia between 1920-1960?

Post from above:

Hello BillYo414, looking at the Official Guide of the Railways from September 1951 it shows the B&O had Passenger Service to Connellsville, PA. It was also served by the PRR, P&LE, P&WV, and WM but ONLY freight services.

I believe Connellsville was on the B&O main line to Pittsburgh and beyond so maybe some B&O guys can chime in with more information as to cars used in the years you're looking at.

Russ

Bill your question is pretty open ended.  The number and type of passenger trains running were way different in 1920 vs 1960.  In the twenties there would have been locals, many of which probably using open vestibule wooden cars.  I would venture that the RR's sited above in 1920 may have all been running some "mixed" passenger trains.  If you are truly interested in that era, you can do some digging now that you have the RR's.  By 1951 a far different scenario.  The decline in local rail passenger service started way before 1960.  During the depression (1930's) many short run and branch line passenger trains were curtailed.  The comments made above give good information for the 1950's.  So to answer your original question probably ever type of passenger car you can imagine might have been used.  That could include Combine cars, "doodlebugs", and possibly combine type cabooses.

@BillYo414 posted:

...I see Atlas is coming out with some Madison Heavyweight cars but as I understand it, Madisons are a fictional style of passenger car?  I'm not opposed to them by any means but I would like to follow a prototype if there is one to follow. ...

IMO, the Atlas heavyweight cars are very generic.  Probably representative for the period, but IMO they're rather expensive for what they are.

I didn't see that you mentioned what radius/diameter curves you're using - that's a major determining factor when choosing passenger cars.  Even on O72, there's a lot of overhang for anything beyond 15" cars.

Everyone has different objectives, but my opinion is to run whatever looks good to you.

Apparently there was one run of Irvington/Madison cars in 1941, including a set that included the 763E Hudson. They weren't produced again until 1946 due to the war.

Up until recently, Bachmann/Williams made similar cars, decorated for several railroads plus a "Luxury Lines" generic version in red similar to the originals.

Since it appears the B&O was the only operator of passenger trains into Connellsville during the entire timeframe you mention, the Atlas (former MTH) Premier heavyweights might be a good choice.  They are a decent approximation of Pullman Standard cars plans selectively compressed to 72' scale feet and while generic, do represent a great number of the cars that were in service during the steel car era.   

In rereading your original post, I hadn't considered branch line service that might have come to Connellsville, so I did some quick research. 

The broad-gauge West Penn Railways was based out of Connellsville as part of their 339-mile interurban service until 1952.  I'm not sure that is what you had in mind, but it sure would make for some interesting modeling.

Earlier than the period you are researching but this was a rather gruesome article on the wreck of the B&O Duquesne Limited in 1903.  Journalism was certainly more colorful at that time.

A look at the 1946 Pennsylvania Railroad Timetable shows that Connellsville was not listed as a stop which is understandable as it was always a branch line.  It is possible that some branch line service may have gone there prior to WWII.

Finally, it appears that the WM & PL&E stopped serving Connellsville in 1939 when service to Union Station stopped.  Again, for that time period, steel cars would be the most common and wood cars were largely out of service by then.  I know more about WM passenger service, but I am sure the PL&E might be similar.  A baggage car, a mail car, and some coaches would be most appropriate.

Not sure if this is helpful or not, but it might help a bit in research.  However, it is your railroad.  Nothing to say that the B&O, PRR, WM or P&LE couldn't have served this town with some form of service on your version of this part of the world!

I cannot thank everybody enough for the information shared. Sorry it took me so long to get back. I finished painting the ceiling near the layout and then we had some weather that damaged siding on the house. Anyway, this is what I was hoping for and it's the reason I left it so open ended. I take a lot of time and information to get my ratio of fiction and non-fiction right on the layout.

Also, since I forgot in the original post, there's no concern about minimum radius. I have 0-72 or greater on my mainline and at the passenger station. The length of the siding for the passenger station is a concern. I believe I was only able to squeeze 4 or 5 feet in there. It may be infuriating to some but this sounds like an opportunity for interesting switching operations to me

The links and book recommendations everyone provided were very helpful. I wasn't having a ton of luck with searches and I haven't had a chance to do any non-internet research. This was very helpful. I'll be hitting up my local library to see if which books they can get for me. American Steam Locomotives by William L. Withuhn just came in so I have to go pick it up.

The passenger station is set in a fictional town dominated by coal mining. My family mined coal in Daisytown and my wife's family mined coal in Connellsville so that region is the natural choice for inspiration for the fictional town on the layout. We currently live in Youngstown, which has old stations still standing from B&O, PRR, Erie, and P&LE (the freight station anyway). My steel mills are set in a fictional suburb of Youngstown. So I figure the best options for passenger cars would be any heavyweight style car in the schemes of B&O, PRR, or P&LE. Any thoughts? I think that splits it down the middle of realism and alternative timeline in my opinion. Any of those railroads could have operated a passenger route from Frick's coalfields to the mills in Youngstown...if each fictional town on my layout has the customer base to finance the operations

It sounds to me like there was only a few main designs of passenger cars (probably by manufacturer such as Pullman?) and then each railroad customized and utilized as they saw fit. Is that a fair statement? GGD and Atlas are at the top of my list. I don't yet own any GGD/3rdRail products and I have been happy with Atlas freight products so far. So I think I can't lose between the two.

Again, I appreciate the contributions. You guys should get together and write a book haha

Bill, Atlas is now making the old MTH 18” Heavyweights. For 18” cars, MTH, K-Line, and Lionel from prior to 2010 are excellent though a few years both had bad trucks. Lionel after 2010. Atlas Trainman did 60’ cars, also OK. All 3rd Rails are 21”.

BTW Pullman made sleepers, lounge and maybe observation cars. Not coaches and head end cars. Pullman cars may have passed through your towns but unlikely a local would use them.

No need to get all the same brand. Mix and match is more prototypical.

Pete

Try the Pullman Digital collection here for more info than you could possibly need. https://collections.carli.illi...llection/nby_pullman

Seeing the town is fictional but still based on real life. You don’t have to have prototypical accuracy. Have you thought of running a mixed passenger train. I’m thinking a mixed local based on the former MTH woodsided cars. Lionel offers 2 packs that have combines or baggage cars to go with a coach. These are great looking cars and still ran in the early 50’s in rural areas. Often what your describing for operations didn’t involve the best of the fleet. Mix in a few freight cars providing goods for the locals living in town and the passenger car operation could be based on providing workers for the mines. They offered some beautiful paint schemes for these cars. But I’d go for some of their simpler schemes that could be re relettered. Maybe create your own shortline.

Branchline and locals were often just 1/2 (combine) to 2 cars.  To make them less of a drain for the railroads they often were part of a mixed (freight/passenger) train.  Jonathan also mentioned there was and Interurban line there.  Since you mention somewhat fictional, run what you like, it would be hard to prove it was NOT prototypical for the early part of  the era.  In 1920 guessing not a lot of people in that area owned cars, and not sure how many roads existed to operate them on.

Good Evening Bill,

Here's a little info on a train that you might consider modeling as you could combine several different railroads in it's consist,  but it's only from the late 1940's through the mid 1960's.

In 1949 the P&LE purchased 4 Alco PA1's,  and in 1952 purchased 2 more Alco PA2's  that were to be used on their morning and afternoon Steel King passenger  trains that ran between Pittsburgh and Youngstown.   These trains carried cars from both the P&LE and NYC which included RPO's,  baggage cars, coaches,  and also through sleepers coming off other NYC routes(Chicago,  Cleveland,  Buffalo).   These through cars were generally interchanged at Youngstown although the P&LE engines occasionally ran through to Cleveland.   In addition to these cars within the NYC System,  the P&LE also interchanged with the Erie(and later in the 1960's the Erie Lackawanna) and also the B&O.   The Erie cars,  usually coaches and a diner would be handed off to the P&LE at Youngstown and would be carried in the Steel King consist to Pittsburgh and back to Youngstown.   The B&O cars usually also coaches and a diner generally came off the Washingtonian and were handed off to the P&LE in Pittsburgh and ran to Youngstown where  they would be handed back.  All the cars from all the railroads would be a combination of steel heavyweights to the lightweight streamlined cars.  The Alco PA's only lasted to the late 1950's and they were scrapped in the early 1960's.   After that P&LE steam boiler equipped passenger GP7's took over and the passenger business declined and the trains became shorter and shorter.   I believe the Steel King trains were discontinued in 1962.

Bill; I apologize for dropping into this conversation so late but, based on info provided in one of my Western Maryland books, WM and P&LE both had trains serving Connellsville within the first part of your time period - from about 1920 till 1931.

These two trains (nos. 7 and 8) were remnants of two former through passenger trains (equipped with sleepers and diner) that were handled from Baltimore to Connellsville by WM; from Connellsville to Youngstown via P≤ Youngstown to Cleveland via Erie; and Cleveland to Chicago via NYC. Trains were named the Chicago Limited westbound and Baltimore Limited eastbound. These through trains ran only from 1913 till 1917 when they were essentially replaced by a series of local trains operating over much the same railroads via loose connections.

On the WM and P&LE portions of this route, these trains operated from 1917 till roughly 1931 and were short coach only trains - presumably heavyweights. These two coach trains would appear to have been the last regularly scheduled passenger trains through Connellsville on either WM or P&LE.

Curt

@BillYo414 posted:

I cannot thank everybody enough for the information shared. Sorry it took me so long to get back. I finished painting the ceiling near the layout and then we had some weather that damaged siding on the house. Anyway, this is what I was hoping for and it's the reason I left it so open ended. I take a lot of time and information to get my ratio of fiction and non-fiction right on the layout.

Also, since I forgot in the original post, there's no concern about minimum radius. I have 0-72 or greater on my mainline and at the passenger station. The length of the siding for the passenger station is a concern. I believe I was only able to squeeze 4 or 5 feet in there. It may be infuriating to some but this sounds like an opportunity for interesting switching operations to me

The links and book recommendations everyone provided were very helpful. I wasn't having a ton of luck with searches and I haven't had a chance to do any non-internet research. This was very helpful. I'll be hitting up my local library to see if which books they can get for me. American Steam Locomotives by William L. Withuhn just came in so I have to go pick it up.

The passenger station is set in a fictional town dominated by coal mining. My family mined coal in Daisytown and my wife's family mined coal in Connellsville so that region is the natural choice for inspiration for the fictional town on the layout. We currently live in Youngstown, which has old stations still standing from B&O, PRR, Erie, and P&LE (the freight station anyway). My steel mills are set in a fictional suburb of Youngstown. So I figure the best options for passenger cars would be any heavyweight style car in the schemes of B&O, PRR, or P&LE. Any thoughts? I think that splits it down the middle of realism and alternative timeline in my opinion. Any of those railroads could have operated a passenger route from Frick's coalfields to the mills in Youngstown...if each fictional town on my layout has the customer base to finance the operations

It sounds to me like there was only a few main designs of passenger cars (probably by manufacturer such as Pullman?) and then each railroad customized and utilized as they saw fit. Is that a fair statement? GGD and Atlas are at the top of my list. I don't yet own any GGD/3rdRail products and I have been happy with Atlas freight products so far. So I think I can't lose between the two.

Again, I appreciate the contributions. You guys should get together and write a book haha

Hi Bill,

As stated the Heavyweights will fit the ERA .  We have not discused be fore but I am A P&LE fan,  I have the A@a Berk ,a steam engine that maybe should  never been built, I also have a PA1 NYC road number 4204 which was the road number of the P&LE's PA-1.  The only thing the loc is only marked a New York Cenrtral (no System) added  one of these days intended to some how ad the "system" on the side.

Now in the are you ae modeling the P&LE used parent company NYC PASSENGER CARS ONLY MARK AS  "New York Central". It was not until the Penn Central was broken up and the courts seperated  the PL&E any from the NYC did the P&LE mark thee passenger cars as "P&LE". by then the cars were  paint green streamliners.

Ron