Proper wire selection

Some tips.  I always look to find out if used would work.  My layout used throw away 14 ga stranded copper wire that was used for instrumentation in a chemical plant that had an explosion.  They do not used spliced wire for instrumentation.  Since that time 40 years ago, I have found a dozen or so 500 ft spools or partial spools of wire at garage and estate sale for less than $3.00 or so, wire of various gauges.

The only color wire that has dedicated color is the common and it is black.  I use any color and label the wire at the control panels as to what its purpose is and at it destination.  I have simple hand drawn sketches of most circuits but no over wiring diagram as it would require too much work to make and keep up to date.  There are several Common wire junctions, that consist of a brass 1 inch flat head screw and two brass countersunk finishing washers with the flat sides to the inside to accept the wires and a black common wire is daisy chained to 4 or so locations on the bottom of the train board.  This system keeps a Common always close where ever it is needed.

I have found that using two or twin wire that is close together gives problems on AC with induction between the wires that interfered with track switch solenoids operation.  I made sure not have my single wires run parallel to each other.

You can find a complete write up of building my layout on the OGR link below.  There is an index on the bottom of post 1 on Page 1.  The page for wiring is page 1, post  8a.  There is a post on building a compact track diagram control panel also as my layout has 34 track switches.  Even if you use modern 18v systems for train control,  control panels are nice or maybe necessary if you have a large number of track switches.

https://ogrforum.com/topic/evo...95#60276340902001695

Charlie

@Godale03 posted:

Hello,

As I am getting closer to laying track I am starting to think about what type and kind of wire I will need to start getting together so I have everything I need once I get to that point. I am thinking with a layout that is in a 30x40 space would need something like 14 guage 2 conductor stranded wire. I am running Atlas track and I am using the Atlas terminal joiners. What other wire will I need to have on hand to wire switches or other accessories down the line? My plan is to keep things color coded so I can identify by the wire what it is running to... if that is even possible. I have heard that you need to take your time wiring so that it is neat and organized and easy to troubleshoot when the time arises.

Tom

I think you are on the right track.  I would suggest:

• 12 gauge (rather than 14) / 2 conductor stranded wire.  Or if 2 conductor wire that large proves expensive, it is cheaper to use 12 gauge individual wires - just make sure 1 is red and the other is black.
• Color coding and a wiring plan are essential.  Use a pair of colors for track power, e.g. red / black.  Use another for switch power.  Below is my wiring convention.  Doing a large layout without such a plan is asking for trouble.
• 
• Taking your time to wire neatly (label) is essential to finding problems later.

My thread https://ogrforum.com/topic/prr-panhandle-2-0 captures my experiences building a large layout.  I discuss the problems and my mistakes as well.  Electrical discussion begins on page 15 of the thread.  DO NOT USE SUITCASE Connectors.

Best of luck,

George

Thank you for the information everyone, I appreciate it.

A few more questions?

First, can you recommend part/item numbers for wire and where to purchase them?

Do you guys have wire type recommendations for accessories?

Atlas switches will require 3 wires.... I watched a few videos online and Eric's Trains was the best I have found so far. He used what looked like ribbon cable to wire up his switches. However I can't find what he used online.

I have heard that DCS is a bit tougher to wire. I figured I would go with a Star type rather than a common bus style of wiring.

I am going to be running Legacy and DCS. I am using 4 lionel 180W powerhouse power supplies, as I am completely digital. I have no conventional engines. I have heard that for Legacy to work, you need to tie all the grounds for each level of track together so legacy works. How do you accomplish this? I plan on using MTH terminal blocks, and I have been advised that I should use the black terminal blocks under the table for wiring power and ground to the tracks as this will make it easier to troubleshoot problems in the future.

I want to make sure that I do my wiring correctly and neatly. I have seen some layouts where the wiring looks to be hastily installed and spaghetti junction under there. I know there is a lot of wiring especially for larger layouts. There will be a certain amount of spaghetti under a layout. Hopefully I can mitigate as much as possible. I am not near wiring as of yet, so I have plenty of time to gather supplies and gain some knowledge before I start.

Another piece of information I have heard is that the new WTIU does not like lionel power. Is this indeed true? Is there any known fix or workaround? If so, does anyone know if MTH will correct the issue if such an issue does indeed exist?

Tom

Tom,

I can't help you on the DCS or WTIU issues; I happily run TMCC which is older but simple and ultra reliable.  My layout is wired as 8 busses, 1 / power district.  Each bus is independently powered by a Lionel PH180 or PH135 with fuses in line between the track and the power supply.  One surge protector controls power from the wall.  I recently installed a whole-house surge protector.

Anyway, as to wire and electrical supplies, here are some of my resources:

• 16 gauge zip cord (2 conductor):  https://www.pacergroup.net/16-gauge-zip-cord/
• Wire:  https://www.waytekwire.com/
• Wire:  https://www.delcity.net/store/Wire-&-Cable/
• Amazon lists many sources for 2-conductor wire.  I try to buy American made copper wire.
• Wire and tools:  https://www.mayerelectric.com/
• Connectors, terminal blocks, jumpers, spade connectors:  AllElectronics.com is gone, but their successor is https://aretronics.com/

Best,

George

@G3750 posted:

I think you are on the right track.  I would suggest:

• 12 gauge (rather than 14) / 2 conductor stranded wire.  Or if 2 conductor wire that large proves expensive, it is cheaper to use 12 gauge individual wires - just make sure 1 is red and the other is black.
• Color coding and a wiring plan are essential.  Use a pair of colors for track power, e.g. red / black.  Use another for switch power.  Below is my wiring convention.  Doing a large layout without such a plan is asking for trouble.
• 
• Taking your time to wire neatly (label) is essential to finding problems later.

My thread https://ogrforum.com/topic/prr-panhandle-2-0 captures my experiences building a large layout.  I discuss the problems and my mistakes as well.  Electrical discussion begins on page 15 of the thread.  DO NOT USE SUITCASE Connectors.

Best of luck,

George

Thank you. That is one nice excel spreadsheet!

Thank you, Tom.  The spreadsheet also names some suppliers for wire and other components, e.g. brfo6535, MPJA, Summit Racing.  Pico8147PT is a part number for parallel (2-conductor) wire.  I also buy spools of 22 awg gauge from Jameco.  Posi-locks are much easier to use and more reliable than wire nuts, in my opinion.

The tabs on the spreadsheet marked "Eastern Power Districts" and "Western Power Districts" hold numbered feeder wire taps for their respective districts.

George

I totally agree with George on the 12 AWG recommendation.  My layout is 23 x 40,   250 foot main line divided into 4 power districts.  Each one supplied with the 180 Watt PM.   I didn't go the 2 conductor cable route, but purchased individual rolls of 12 Gauge Stranded, Tinned high quality wire, in 4 colors, plus White for the AC/Common Bus Wire which runs across the entire layout.  So every power district is tied to the 12 gauge common conductor.   

I don't run DCS, but initially ran TMCC then upgraded to Legacy and have had no issues.   If you haven't.... do some reading up on powering the Legacy Control base from a different Duplex Outlet than your 180 watt power supplies, and potentially not using Surge Protection for the Base Controller...   I am not an EE, but I ended up moving my Legacy base to the center of layout, and powering it from a duplex on a different circuit breaker, and I power it up, prior to powering up the 180 Watt Power Supplies on the ZW-C.  It just runs better and more reliable, for me. 

I have a DC power bus on the layout as well,  12 VDC, which powers a NJ International Brass B&O CPL signal system. The negative side of the DC power supplies, are also tied to the White 12 Gauge AC Common bus so my insulated rails trigger the signals.

Switch machine power for the DZ1000 is provided through a 16 VAC bus wire, much like George Recommended.  I have a quite a few Tortoise machines on the layout as well they are powered by the 12VDC bus mentioned above.

@chris a posted:

I didn't go the 2 conductor cable route, but purchased individual rolls of 12 Gauge Stranded, Tinned high quality wire, in 4 colors, plus White for the AC/Common Bus Wire which runs across the entire layout.  So every power district is tied to the 12 gauge common conductor.   

Something that I see as a fairly common theme is the use of heavy gauge wire to every power district, yet having one common return for all the power districts.  Note that if you need #12 wire for each power district, your common return has to be able to carry the current from all the power districts back to the power panel, that would require a #8 return.  I'm sure some folks take this into account, but I don't see it prominently mentioned, and it certainly should be!

I have a 12 x 24 layout with an extension for the 10-track freight yard.  I used all #14 OFC pure copper stranded wire wire for my wiring.  Each power district has a home run for both the power and common back to the main power panel.

@gunrunnerjohn,  Thanks John for your post about needing a larger Common Return, if one did not do the "Home Run" wiring configuration to each district.  I am one of those that didn't take that into consideration !!!   

@chris a posted:

@gunrunnerjohn,  Thanks John for your post about needing a larger Common Return, if one did not do the "Home Run" wiring configuration to each district.  I am one of those that didn't take that into consideration !!!   

Well, I couldn't tell for sure, so I tried to make my admonishment somewhat ambiguous.   I suspect most of the time it may not make much difference, the bigger the layout, the more important it may become.  The exact mix of traffic on each power district is also going to make a difference.

Let's see... your layout is at least three times the area of mine...

Another thing I did was to put my power distribution panel in the center of the layout so the length of the wire runs was minimized as much as possible.  My goal was to never see a 1V drop from the transformer voltage anywhere on the layout.

Yeah, the good news is it's built in irregular shaped modules, so the buss cables for power distribution go through 30 AMP rated oversized terminal strips every 8 -12 feet...   

I figure I can work my way from the source and either replace some of the White Common AC 12 gauge conductors between the terminal strips, or just add additional cables to enlarge the Common Drain side of the circuit.

Sounds like a plan.   I'm sure that all the power districts aren't running at full load, some of the sizing is obviously theoretical based on max usage of all circuits.  FWIW, our modular club has the same issue.  I pointed it out some time ago, but it's never been addressed.  As long as it doesn't bite me in the butt, I'm letting sleeping dogs lie.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Something that I see as a fairly common theme is the use of heavy gauge wire to every power district, yet having one common return for all the power districts.  Note that if you need #12 wire for each power district, your common return has to be able to carry the current from all the power districts back to the power panel, that would require a #8 return.  I'm sure some folks take this into account, but I don't see it prominently mentioned, and it certainly should be!

I have a 12 x 24 layout with an extension for the 10-track freight yard.  I used all #14 OFC pure copper stranded wire wire for my wiring.  Each power district has a home run for both the power and common back to the main power panel.

I will definitely reach out again as I get closer to wiring. Thank you for the idea of moving the power panel to a more central location of the layout. That will make sure that I don't have excessively long runs. My layout is not quite 30x40, that is just the size of the room. I think the longest piece of benchwork is 30ft. Once I get more of the benchwork completed I can post some more pictures and see what you guys think would be the best way to tackle the wiring. My biggest concern at this point is getting a list of the wire (gauge, amount, type) along with all the appropriate connecters. Once it comes time to start pulling wires I will reach out again. Even though this is all new to me, I am not afraid of the wiring part, I just want to make sure I go about it smartly.

Tom