PS3 Engines not seeing watchdog signal from WTIU

there not seeing the watch dog signal are you sure that you have the dcs turned on other wise it will start up in conventional mode and start up immediately!!!

Alan

Hold on, let's step back and look at the entire scenario:

A Watchdog signal is ONLY sent when a channel first sees the power turn on in that channel. Caveat- also needs the electronics of the TIU powered and ready to sense that power on event to be able to send the watchdog.

I don't claim to know everything about the internal structure of the new WTIU- but what I do know is it takes time for the processor and operating system (similar to the WIU structure) to boot up from first getting power via the power adapter. I don't know if there is a secondary microprocessor involved that is the "TIU" portion of WTIU, such that it can boot rapidly and send a watchdog before the WIU portion completes booting up- which again takes significant time.

So again, what I don't know is your entire scenario. Lets say you have a power strip, and that power strip is what you use to power on your system at the beginning of a session. Let's also say you are using track power transformers that turn on track power- as soon as you turn on that power strip. The old scenario of a TIU +WIU, the WIU could still be booting up but the TIU and it's processor boot within seconds of power on- so it could send out a watchdog.

Let's say you replaced all that with the new WTIU and it's power supply is plugged into the same power strip. You walk in, turn on the power strip, your transformers apply power to the track inputs, at the same time the WTIU just got power from the power adapter and possibly still booting up. This could allow track power out to the track and yet the WTIU was not even ready to send a watchdog.

Bottom line, we need a lot more details of how exactly your setup is powered and wired, is the WTIU fully powered first and booted up (it's power adapter in a constant on outlet)? When and how are you turning on track power and what source (transformers)?

@Vernon Barry posted:

Hold on, let's step back and look at the entire scenario:

A Watchdog signal is ONLY sent when a channel first sees the power turn on in that channel. Caveat- also needs the electronics of the TIU powered and ready to sense that power on event to be able to send the watchdog.

I don't claim to know everything about the internal structure of the new WTIU- but what I do know is it takes time for the processor and operating system (similar to the WIU structure) to boot up from first getting power via the power adapter. I don't know if there is a secondary microprocessor involved that is the "TIU" portion of WTIU, such that it can boot rapidly and send a watchdog before the WIU portion completes booting up- which again takes significant time.

So again, what I don't know is your entire scenario. Lets say you have a power strip, and that power strip is what you use to power on your system at the beginning of a session. Let's also say you are using track power transformers that turn on track power- as soon as you turn on that power strip. The old scenario of a TIU +WIU, the WIU could still be booting up but the TIU and it's processor boot within seconds of power on- so it could send out a watchdog.

Let's say you replaced all that with the new WTIU and it's power supply is plugged into the same power strip. You walk in, turn on the power strip, your transformers apply power to the track inputs, at the same time the WTIU just got power from the power adapter and possibly still booting up. This could allow track power out to the track and yet the WTIU was not even ready to send a watchdog.

Bottom line, we need a lot more details of how exactly your setup is powered and wired, is the WTIU fully powered first and booted up (it's power adapter in a constant on outlet)? When and how are you turning on track power and what source (transformers)?

If I recollect correctly from my testing, when you power the WTIU up, it will not pass power from the inputs to the outputs until the device is fully booted up.

So if you use bricks to power the Fixed inputs and power everything on with the flip of one switch. The watchdog shouldn't be an issue.

However, if someone runs in passive mode, then there could be a problem with track power being applied and the WTIU not ready to send a watchdog.

@H1000 is correct. I power up two power strips one right after the other. (Same as I did for the TIU/WIU) So what I mean is that the track power and WTIU Power are on within seconds of each other, but the WTIU "clicks" on the track power after it boots. I know this because I can hear it click, and I have LED power indicators on my track loops that come on a few minutes after I turn on the power strips and the WTIU boots up. BUT, PS3 engines start up in conventional when the track power comes on. YES, I have all settings on the WTIU set to Fixed and DCS signal ON. So I am at a loss. Only thing I can try is conventional reset as I mentioned. I have not tried this yet. Wil I have to do this all the time, seems odd.

Mike

Let the WTIU boot up and  thru all the cycles ( almost 2 minutes for mine ) before applying power to the inputs or there will be no watchdog signal

@Jim Teeple posted:

Let the WTIU boot up and  thru all the cycles ( almost 2 minutes for mine ) before applying power to the inputs or there will be no watchdog signal

Jim, I will try this. It doesn't make sense to me since the WTIU seems to click on the power when it boots up, but I will try! Thank you.

Mike

Another option is to always have the WTIU on. Just like your home router never turns off.

From the MTH  WTIU Quick Start Manual:

3. Plug the WTIU into an AC wall outlet.

4. Wait 2 minutes for the WTIU to initialize.

When ready, the PWR, WI-FI, and TRACK LEDS (4) will be on.

The track LEDS will be green.

5. Apply track power through the WTIU. The track LED will change from green to purple.

@Jim Teeple posted:

From the MTH  WTIU Quick Start Manual:

3. Plug the WTIU into an AC wall outlet.

4. Wait 2 minutes for the WTIU to initialize.

When ready, the PWR, WI-FI, and TRACK LEDS (4) will be on.

The track LEDS will be green.

5. Apply track power through the WTIU. The track LED will change from green to purple.

I’m assuming this was in the box? Nothing in my box but the unit, power wart, and antenna. Guide would have been helpful. Unbelievable. Thanks again!

Mike

Try changing from Fixed Channel 1 to Fixed Channel 2. My Fixed Channel 1 is bad. It sends through the voltage but not the control signal.  Also make sure the voltage is source is not from chopped waveform device like the Z Controller or CW80.

@LT1Poncho posted:

I’m assuming this was in the box? Nothing in my box but the unit, power wart, and antenna. Guide would have been helpful. Unbelievable. Thanks again!

Mike

PDF File of quick start guide attached

The WTIU works different than the old TIU, i Use to just turn on a power strip with everything powered up, but not with this, i have to wait till the WTIU boots up then turn on the power for the tracks or the engins will just take off at full speed.

Dont ask how i know this .

@Bruce Brown posted:

Try changing from Fixed Channel 1 to Fixed Channel 2. My Fixed Channel 1 is bad. It sends through the voltage but not the control signal.  Also make sure the voltage is source is not from chopped waveform device like the Z Controller or CW80.

All 4 of my channels are used. I may switch them around, but I don’t think it will make a difference. It is the start up procedure.  I haven’t tried the new start up procedure yet. Just seems stupid to me. This makes it hard for someone with the units and transformers under the layout. Luckily I have two surge protectors and can configure to turn one on before the other. I half wish I only got into Lionel.

I am wondering about the idea of leaving the thing on all the time without track power. Hate to do that.

Mike

Mike

scroll back i sent the quick start manual.

I actually had a very similar issue.  Mine started with not being able to run power from my ZW-L through my WTIU to the track.  That turned out to be an issue with the power strip I was using.  I posted about that here.

New to DCS Can't Power Tracks Through WTIU? | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum

BUT once I had that issue solved, the ZW-L and WTIU would work fine unless I powered off the track to change out rolling stock / engine.  When I powered the track up again, the WTIU would take too long to recognize power and the engine would race off at full throttle.  The green lights on the WTIU would take too long to turn purple, some major delay in recognizing full track power.  I would have to grab my Legacy remote and kill the layout power. 

I never sorted that out, I just rewired my WTIU into passive mode vs running power through it and I have had no issues since.

Update

Well, now that I got the startup information from you all (thanks @Jim Teeple) that wasn’t included with my WTIU, things are working. Interestingly, I was also dealing with a situation where the power would keep clicking off and on, like something was shorting the WTIU, whenever I moved some freight cars that were parked on a powered siding, I found that one of the cars had out of spec wheels that were shorting on a switch. This never happened with the old RevL TIU/WIU. Removed that car and no issues. It seems this WTIU may be more sensitive to shorts etc. Maybe this is good for protection of the internals, maybe not. Time will tell I guess.

Mike

@H1000 posted:

If I recollect correctly from my testing, when you power the WTIU up, it will not pass power from the inputs to the outputs until the device is fully booted up.

So if you use bricks to power the Fixed inputs and power everything on with the flip of one switch. The watchdog shouldn't be an issue.

However, if someone runs in passive mode, then there could be a problem with track power being applied and the WTIU not ready to send a watchdog.

Yes, I run in Passive mode.  Before I installed the WTIU I would flip my main power switches and everything comes on (TIU, Track, etc.).   Now because it takes nearly 1-1/2 minutes to bootup (2 minutes if using ethernet cable instead of wi-fi, I timed it.) the engines will startup before the WTIU is ready.  Until the purple lights come on, on the outputs, I am not sure any signal comes out.  So now I power up the WTIU first and when booted up, the turn on track power.

It's strange and not what I was expecting. 

@ArtsModelTrains posted:

I actually had a very similar issue.  Mine started with not being able to run power from my ZW-L through my WTIU to the track.  That turned out to be an issue with the power strip I was using.  I posted about that here.

New to DCS Can't Power Tracks Through WTIU? | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum

BUT once I had that issue solved, the ZW-L and WTIU would work fine unless I powered off the track to change out rolling stock / engine.  When I powered the track up again, the WTIU would take too long to recognize power and the engine would race off at full throttle.  The green lights on the WTIU would take too long to turn purple, some major delay in recognizing full track power.  I would have to grab my Legacy remote and kill the layout power.

I never sorted that out, I just rewired my WTIU into passive mode vs running power through it and I have had no issues since.

Art, YES same issue. What I had to do was set up one of my track blocks with a toggle switch to turn the power off of just that section and put new locos and rolling stock on there without shutting the power down to the WTIU or the rest of the track that may have trains on another loop. All my transformers are on a surge protector under the layout. Shut one off, shut em all off. I have one of @gunrunnerjohn’s watchdog signal generators on the loop with the toggle switch so nothing starts up when power is switched back on that block.

Mike

@LT1Poncho posted:

Art, YES same issue. What I had to do was set up one of my track blocks with a toggle switch to turn the power off of just that section and put new locos and rolling stock on there without shutting the power down to the WTIU or the rest of the track that may have trains on another loop. All my transformers are on a surge protector under the layout. Shut one off, shut em all off. I have one of @gunrunnerjohn’s watchdog signal generators on the loop with the toggle switch so nothing starts up when power is switched back on that block.

Mike

I use two power strips, one of which has track power on it and the other my command bases. Rather than use the rocker switches on the power strips to turn each one on, I wired each of them to a separate common household white light switch mounted on the layout fascia. That way, it's easy to flip a switch and turn the bases on first, wait a minute or two and then flip on the other power strip that has my track power source on it.     

Well I thought it was fixed. Turning the power on as suggested worked about 4 times. I came back down and tried to run trains this afternoon. Last three tries of turning on WTIU letting boot then turning on track power and some PS3 engines, not all, but some are taking off as before. I’m to the point where I’m just gonna send this thing back and limp on with my half dead RevL. No more MTH stuff. I’ll stick with what works more reliably. Thanks for all your help!

Mike

why don't you just send your old TIU to MTH and have  Don repair it then it will work perfectly!

Alan

@Alan Mancus posted:

why don't you just send your old TIU to MTH and have  Don repair it then it will work perfectly!

Alan

I wasn't aware they would repair a likely 10 year old RevL??

Mike

Yes TIUs can be repaired.  I repair them also. G

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

I run in Passive mode. ...the engines will startup before the WTIU is ready.  So now I power up the WTIU first and when booted up, the turn on track power.

Sean

In Passive mode trials on a testbed layout, I compared 1) first powering up the track and then waiting 2 minutes for the WTIU to turn on, vs 2) first powering up the WTIU and then waiting two minutes to apply track power via a separate switch.

I found no difference. In both cases the PS3 engines powered up in conventional, neutral mode. Thus the WTIU, unfortunately, is not putting out periodic watchdog signals like @gunrunnerjohn's device.

I then had to press START UP, then SHUT DOWN, then START UP....multiple times until the engines went into DCS mode.

After going through this inconvenience, everything works well including simultaneously running Lionel Legacy with the CAB3. I use a 22 uH choke between the red power supply terminal and the red WTIU output terminal (going to the center rail.)

@jstraw124 I’m seeing exact same issues. It seems the WTIU is extremely sensitive to the slightest short. Things that the old units never coughed at. I too have rewired things not in passive but just to attempt to get the WTIU to start up every time. Normally.

One loop I found a small issue with a pinched wire. On a second loop I couldn’t find anything shorting after hours of unwiring each track block. Finally I came to the conclusion that something in a B unit of one of my Legacy sets was the problem. It was on the track for some testing by accident and then taken off. After removed, the WTIU booted and changed to purple normally. If I put it on the track and try to boot up, everything stays green when I apply track power, and no power ever gets to the track. This legacy ABB unit is a month old, runs fine, has always run fine, so I have no clue.

My issue now is getting two WTIUs to talk to each other in Super Mode. I don’t know if MTH is still working on that or what, but it doesn’t work. I can get the WTIUs together on wifi based on the instructions, but engines go unresponsive when I go to a section powered by the second WTIU. I’m back to square one again.

Mike

@jstraw124 posted:

My plan for the new unit is to install it in passive mode for two reasons.  One is to be able to run Legacy engines without waiting for the 2 minute boot up, if I don’t have any M.T.H. engines on the layout at the moment.  Second reason is it appears the best way for me to introduce a TPC 400 to one of the loops.

Sorry you had what sounds like a bad unit. Maybe with the new one bench test it first so you know it works.

Update: still trying to get this WTIU(s) to work. Seems anytime I put a Legacy engine on the layout, it causes the WTIU to I guess short out, cut all track power. LEDs go from purple to green. Both WTIUs. I’m using a Base3 with wire from Upost going to commons on distribution blocks. Is anybody else having this issue with a Base3 and WTIU??

More testing……seems I can have kne legacy engine on the track and it will run fine. If I lash up, or have another engine sitting on the track and powered up, WTIU will click power off to track??? No idea what’s happening.

Mike

Great advice on this thread.  I run passive mode using a Remote Commander, now upgraded to WTIU.  My dread has been calmed, because have a GW-180 on one channel, and Legagy Powermaster (conventional mode) on the other - so can bring the throttles up from zero after WTIU does its long boot up.  BINGO!!  DCS engine sees the watchdog every time.  Very happy running trains today without issue.  Thank you OGR Forum contributors.

Tagging onto @Mick60's comments, it seems that a desirable approach to running in passive mode is to install a switch between the 18 VAC power source and the output red terminal on the WTIU. That red terminal is connected to the center rail.

With the switch in an open-circuit setting to prevent voltage reaching the WTIU and track, the WTIU is first turned on until all the indicators are green (taking about 2 minutes). Then the switch is closed to provide 18 VAC voltage to the WTIU output terminal.  The WTIU indicator will turn from green to purple, and voltage will be applied to the track. Apparently, the voltage application to the WTIU output terminal immediately sends the watchdog signal to the track. The engine will then be "quiet" and into the DCS mode.

I find I still have to cycle once through the START UP and SHUT DOWN sequence for my iPhone to get full control of the engine.