Public auction sale

Why have a few drifted this off topic? Why do folks have to push their opinion on others some times leading with snarky comments to try to prevent other post?

 

Every train show I have been too, everyone bargains.  Even on nice stuff in the $7 box.  Polites no thank you or OK I will do it.

 

There are whole world wide markets that are based on bargaining and dealing.  Many consider it fun or sport.  G

quote:

Why not just price it at $25.00 firm?

 

I don't sell mailorder. At train shows, I would prefer to set prices firmly, but most folks expect to dicker. When I set prices firmly, my sales suffer.

Thats just how it is in my area 

Good luck with that.  Unfortunately, prices are going to be skewed by the "buyer's premium" (18%) and Maryland sales tax (6%).

Called today. They will accept my PA license. So I won't have to pay the 6%.

I don't know how any dealers survive on just selling Lionel & MTH trains. The markup is very little, maybe as little as 10% in some cases. I seems to me that the stores that are making a profit are selling more than Lionel & MTH such as HO & N gauge trains where the markup is much greater, as high as 40 to 50%. 

Because people like to think they are getting a deal. You always have to leave yourself some wiggle room when selling your trains. I do the same thing at York when I have stuff to sell. Everything I put up usually sells so I must be doing something right.

 

Yes I do look for the best price when buying and try to sell to maximize my dollars, something wrong with that? 

 

You know Harry, you really have to mind your own business and stop trying to tell people where and how to sell their trains or anything else. I didn't ask you you for your advice and I don't want it. 

quote:

 Are your prices real? Did you build in "wiggle room?"

 

Generally, when I decide to let something go, I want a quick sale,not max dollars. For a while, I was putting rock bottom prices on my items, which resulted in a lot people walking away when I would not dicker. I am back to putting in "wiggle room"

Not to sound like a wise a** But I now know where i'll be on the 17th........... Thats gonna be a good auction.

Good luck with that. Unfortunately, prices are going to be skewed by the "buyer's premium" (18%) and Maryland sales tax (6%).

 

As its an hour's drive, I may attend as well.  There are a couple of lots I may be interested in, I just haven't decided yet.

 

Guess I don't understand why prices will be skewed?  Everyone bidding should be taking into account the buyers's premium in whatever they bid.  I don't see the sales tax as a big deal either as someone with a tax exempt form will have business expenses that a hobbiest wouldn't have.

 

Jim

""You know Harry, you really have to mind your own business and stop trying to tell people where and how to sell their trains or anything else. I didn't ask you you for your advice and I don't want it. ""

 

David, well said.  Voicing an opinions is one thing, stating in a manner that criticizes other views is the turn off.  G 

Have not seen anyone mention going to find something they really want. That is why I buy stuff. And if you are a good salesman, get what you can. If you are a good negotiator, get they best deal you can if you enjoy doing it. Last time I went to a train show, someone tried to quote some book value. I asked him if he wanted to sell it or take it back home. I usually only buy used, unless it is a specialty crafted item. I say that if you are doing this for fun, at least pretend to sound like you are having fun. And if you are doing it for a living and can not make a living, than get another job. As a kid I quickly learned that a paper route was more profitable and had better cash flow then selling Lemonade. And I could still enjoy Lemonade. Some other kid stepped up and took over the stand. Remember, while it is a hobby for some, it is still a market driven industry with the goal of extracting as much of our money from us as possible. Having spent over $10k this year alone, 5% - 10% quickly adds up. Some people buy new cars without blinking and talk about supporting the dealerships. Some of us shop the used car adds. I say set your bottom line, and decide what is more important. Cash flow or getting your price. If no one wants it at your price, don't complain.

Eddie, I've heard this 10% above cost thing for years and just don't believe it.  Standard retail markup is 50% over wholesale.  So with only a 10% markup a LHS would have to sell, for example, 10 $1000 engines in a month to make $1000 dollars.  Do the math, rent, salaries, utilities, at 10% the LHS would ten times that many engines to come out ahead. just my opinion.

The point I was trying to make is that the realized prices will be artificially low because of the buyer's premium and the sales tax.  For example, an item that you would normally bid $100 on, you will only bid $75 because of the other factors.  Possibly, this is good for you but bad for Marty and his creditors.

That's the way auctions work.  This one is no different than countless other auctions that take place every day.  It's one of the "risks" of going the auction route when selling items.

The point I was trying to make is that the realized prices will be artificially low because of the buyer's premium and the sales tax. For example, an item that you would normally bid $100 on, you will only bid $75 because of the other factors. Possibly, this is good for you but bad for Marty and his creditors.

 

The premiums cover the cost of doing business for the auction house.  The plus side for the seller (or in this case the creditors) is that the item will sell and, hopefully for them, the auction house drums up enough potential buyers that items sell at a fair price.

 

Buyers don't realize any benefit by paying buyer premiums.  In fact, the potential buyer needs to be aware of the buyer premium at all times, at it impacts the price they pay.  It really isn't difficult to get caught up in the moment and forget the extra fees.

 

Jim

 

 

You know Harry, you really have to mind your own business and stop trying to tell people where and how to sell their trains or anything else. I didn't ask you you for your advice and I don't want it.

 

Pot, meet kettle.  And his name isn't Harry.

 

--Greg

LionelBill,

 

When I opened my hobby shop in the 1980's I could buy Lionel track for 50% off of retail and all other Lionel items at 40% off retail from distributors. I paid the freight from them to me. In the 1990's I owned a Lionel distributorship and the margins had decreased so that I could wholesale track to dealers for 35 to 40 percent off retail, and other items were 25 to 35 percent off retail plus freight. Some "special" items were lower than 25 percent off retail. In the 2000's as the sales manager for a different distributor track items had decreased to 30 to 35 percent off retail, sets and other items had decreased to 25 to 32 percent off retail and high end items 12 to 20 percent off retail, plus freight. In some cases the freight charges make the discount as low as 10 to 12 percent off retail. You may not want to believe it but these are the way it is nowadays. We gave up the line as a wholesaler after Lionel closed the west coast warehouse and moved the shipping to the east coast. We had to pay the freight from the east coast to the west coast which cut our margin so thin that the line was no longer viable for us to continue. While there are still some direct accounts that can and do discount Lionel most dealers buy through distributors at a reduced discount so that it takes dealers to sell a pot load of paint, scenery, cork, etc. to keep the door open. It might be something to think about when a dealer is unable to give the deep discount people think they are entitled to just for walking in the door.

 

Now there are some manufacturers that still offer a reasonable discount to their dealers, there are barely a handful that offer anywhere near 50 percent. There are sales, promotions, early buy deals and the like but the above is more of the norm than the special deals. When you consider all that it takes to own a brick and mortar store (rent, utilities, wages, taxes, insurance, restocking, etc.) these days I am thankful any time my LHS offers a sale on anything much less Lionel.

 

Something to think about.

 

Regards,

Randall

Bill,  It is low for many of the items.  If you can deal direct with Lionel, you probably get a better deal (Big Ten or what ever the latest number is).  The rest buy from the distributor.  Expensive Engines have a low margin (18-22%),  add the shipping cost and there isn't much left. MTH is similiar.

 

There are sales by the manufacturer that help on some over stocked items.

 

The real money is in N/HO/G plus used.  That is where a small dealer has to make payroll.

 

What I think I see happening by some of the smaller dealers, is buying on the delayed payment.  Getting the merchandise and selling at any price (internet and York)  to make a little profit and then dump the rest at cost to have the money to pay the bill when it arrives.  The model being make any amount of money on free money.  G

Randall, speaking as a Trains Dept. manager at our LHS, I would say you are quite correct. 

 

And the referenced perception is quite wrong, if not 20+ years out-of-date in the world of costs for off-shore production, wholesale distribution, marketing, shipping,  and retailing. 

 

But, hey, we don't have time for even rudimentary discussions about such matters in the K-12 classroom.

 

Re..."Something to think about."   Most people won't/don't. 

 

Re... "the deep discount people think they are entitled to just for walking in the door."  It has insidiously become inculcated as 'The American Way', unfortunately. 

 

Many years ago the tinkling sound of a bell at the entrance door of a retailer heralded the celebrated tradition of a retail customer seeking to buy goods and/or services at the local establishment that was part of the town/city fabric. It was quite a symbiotic relationship.

 

Now that same door bell seems to take on the perspective of John Donne's Meditation XVII, "NUNC LENTO SONITU DICUNT, MORIERIS"... Now this bell tolling softly for another, says to me, Thou must die....Better known by the title "For Whom the Bell Tolls", later adopted by  Ernest Hemingway as the title of his famous novel. 

 

It is a more somber tinkling tone, indeed, to a retailer.

 

KD

 

 

Greg,

 

Another person heard from that has no idea and likes to insult people about something he has no idea about. Please Greg, keep it to yourself.

  I don't have the deep pockets some of the members of this forums have.  I can't afford to drop $200, let alone $1500, on a steam locomotive.  So price is a consideration.  I find that if I wait a while, usually I'm able to get what I want at a price I can afford to pay.   

You just proved my point without realizing it.  The quote "and his name isn't Harry" was not referring to you.  I was literally informing you the poster is not named Harry as you keep posting.  As for the "pot, meet kettle" quote....that was directed at you.  I don't understand how someone can post their view and then take offense at someone posting an opposing view.  If you are insulted then I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

--Greg

Your point illustrates the very real possibility that there is too much product on the market chasing after too few buyer dollars.

Interesting KMK.  Is it possible too much product is being dumped?

 

In the past, I've seen MTH produce Major League sports items, for example, and wonder, does any of this stuff really sell?

 

On the other hand, Williams products appeal to me not only because of price and quality, but because I have yet to see any Williams done up in Major League paint schemes.  I wonder how much of a market there was for the Coors Silver Bullet train that came out a few years ago?

 

Just my two cents.

I have picked up more that a few items on the for sale. I don't like this "wiggle room" stuff. I hope that more people don't fool with the seller than do.

I have ***umed that the seller was just getting rid of stuff he/she did not want and was giving us a chance before e-bay or some other source. Guess me dumb.

Larry

I never bought anything from Marty, but I got the idea that he was a hobbyist and nice guy first, and dealer second.  I sincerely hope this has not killed his enjoyment of the hobby.

 

A really, really nice guy bought a kit manufacturing business - paid too much, probably, and overestimated the market.  I think the business failed, and we all suffered, not because we couldn't get parts, but because he and his spouse were no longer part of the social interaction.

In the enterprise computer/networking business, manufacturers are operating at 50% or better (way better) margins in most cases.   Value added resellers are lucky to make 10% when it's all said and done - often times less.  If you think trains are bad, walk into and IT shop and try to sell something.  They pretty much all expect 40% off list right off the bat.   If seen deals push to 85% discount (!!!) and the manufacturer still makes a nice buck.  The resellers have to make their money on services (implementation, etc.).  It's so bad now that many customer wait until the end of the fiscal year on purpose because they know it's desperation time for some companies.   I work in the industry, and in the end it's our fault.  We trained/conditioned them very well - they learned the game and now many play it better than we do.  And the guy in the middle suffers the most.  

 

In short.  Lenovo is still making a LOT of money on the laptop you bought at Best Buy.  Best Buy probably made 10-20 bucks, but they (hopefully) sell a bazillion of them.  Different market, of course, but them's the rules.  

It doesnt matter, they'll take the total proceeds from the auction, divide it on a pennies on the dollar  percentage to the secured creditors, and what ever is left owed gets discharged in the bankruptcy. Marty walks away with NO DEBT, bad credit, No merchandise, but can move forward with his life. 

I had a business go belly up 10 years ago and had to file chapter seven. I had NO OTHER options. I am not proud of this. However, aside from having a bankruptcy on my credit, it granted me a "Fresh Start". I learned alot of lessons from all that.  I started my current business 7 years ago with $50.00 in my pocket out of the shed in my back yard, we now gross over 1 million  a year. 

So, hopefully Marty can look back, and reflect on what went wrong, and start over. 

I am still  not sure why some posters on here are acting like this is the end of the world, and that any one that goes to auction is an a** hole for preying on the down fall of a train dealer. 

I guarantee any one on this forum or anywhere else for that matter doesn't give a second thought to hitting up a local store (doesn't matter what type) when they have a 50% off going outa business sale. 

Untill you have been self employed and lived through the BS of owning a business (its not near what its cracked up to be) you have no room to talk about how or why a business failed, negotiating, mark ups, mark downs, price checking, bankruptcy, etc. 

I bet if any of these posters who claim they price check and "go for the best deal" and assume making ridiculous offers on products is okay, would change there minds after spending a day in a business owners shoes.  

Who ever coined the phrase "the customer is always right" was high on Crack Cocaine. 

In closing, I am trying to be positive here. I just wish people could see things from the "other side" of the sales counter

Ryan

Ryan, As a cofounder of an S corp since 1984, I am baffled to hear you say that one needs to be on a certain "side" to express an opinion. We have been custom fabricating architectural products since incorporation. No product line, no advertising. Even though I believe in supporting my vendors as much as taking care of my customers, everything is a negotiation. And I am never insulted if a client asks for a discount, and would find it amusing if a vender was insulted if I asked for one. Business is not personal, and feigning that you are offended is just one of several strategies to get to ones goal. To me it is as transparent as good, guy bad guy and feel no need to use it. But our company has skills and services not readily available. We still manufacture in downtown Boston when it seems everyone else decided to take their chances elsewhere. I also find it odd that some feel that hobbyists are required to support or even follow someone else's idea of how business should be conducted. But the customer is always right in the sense that he is not obligated to buy from you if you do not meet his needs. And it is the business mans job to figure out what those are. If it is to get a Deal, then price so you can give him one. If it is good service at any price, then give him better and better and keep raising the cost of the service. That is the game we call Capitalism. When a hobbyist sells something it is usually because they no longer want it. Do not get upset if no one wants it bad enough to pay what you paid when you wanted it. Maybe you originally made a bad decision and should of negotiated better. FMH

One of the things that I really like and respect Lionel for and that is their ability to recognize that they needed to improve customer service. They really have little control over Chinese QC. From what I read on this forum, people respect and want to be recognized as worthy of good interactions with the people they buy from. More so than good product with bad service when they have a problem. And great prices for junk loses its appeal quickly.

FMH, I can't quite seem to get into words what I was trying to say.....  Its late and I'm tired.  Anyway, I own a scrap yard.  for example, customer "A" brings in 200 pounds of aluminum cans. that's what we call a "premium sale" he gets 5 cents more per pound.  Then customer "B" brings in 2 pounds of aluminum cans and expects a premium price. I actually LOSE money on customer "B"'s sale, even at regular price. but I have to stay competitive, or people will go elsewhere. Yet, for example, customer "B" goes on a recycling forum whining and complaining not understanding why he cant get the same price as the guy who had 200 pounds of cans. 

 

I just get tired of listening to my customers stating well, I can go into the city and get 2 cents more per pound, blahh blaaahh blaah. and, I spend the better part of the day trying to explain to them that the "city is a 45 minute drive one way and not worth it for the extra 20 cents they'll get, not to mention the 15.00 worth of gas they'll use to get it. some of my customers get it, others don't.  all they see is that 2 cents more per pound.  On Fridays i have to listen to drunks call me an A**hole and that its my fault that they don't have enough metal buy another case of beer. 

 

So I guess that a business owners perspective on customers depends alot of the type of customers they have to deal with. 

 

Respectfully

Ryan 

Ryan, I can understand your frustration. You are in a tough business and in your case, your "vendors" really can be crack heads. We use a local scrap yard. They pick up and provide containers to sort aluminum. Clean vs painted. We sell tons of scrap a year. I do not haggle with them. Just check the market for scrap prices once and awhile to keep them honest and weigh an occasional box myself. In my case they are "clients" in that they provide me money, and I provide a product. Scrap metal. In my case it is Win/Win. Material cost has already been factored into job it was purchased for. It is waste, so it is cluttering my shop. In this case, having a good "client" who also provides a useful service while paying me is rare. If I were you, I would get a nasty dog and post your purchase prices based on amount delivered daily. And refuse to negotiate prior to unloading. The drunks will figure it out quickly. If you lose a few, they will come back. But if they do not, so what. You said you were losing money on them anyway. Take care. FMH

Besides the buyers premium I think most auction houses also have a sellers premium. So if this house has both Marty's creditors will realize less.

I'm still on the fence about going to the auction.

 

I did send them an e-mail, however, asking if there was a preview prior to the auction and got the following reply:

 

Our preview dates are as follows: Thursday, November 15, 2012>> 10:00am to 8:00pm Friday, November 16, 2012>> 10:00am to 4:00pm

 

Jim

You are making an apple and oranges comparison.

 

This is a bankruptcy sale of the assets of a failed business.  It is, for example, not the same as selling off the estate of a deceased train collector.  Most of the items Cooper is auctioning off are of more recent manufacture and are destined to become part of the inventories of other toy train dealers. 

 

The realities that govern the liquidation auction of a failed business are different from those relating to the lifetime accumulation of a serious train collector (who probably had little or no debt on his acquisitions.)

 

The serious buyers will not be deterred by the way this auction is being conducted.

Well, did the auction via online bidding, and as i suggested earlier, it WAS A GREAT AUCTION, Contrary to popular belief here.

 

After buyers premium and tax, I spent a tad over 4K and got over 150 freight cars, 40 plus loco's, 20 some dummy units, 2 ZW transformers, and 40ish passenger cars. 

 

where's the smiley face with the middle finger ?  just kidding. I'm sure some one will have some smart a**ed comments about this post.....  and how much I spent and how I screwed the train shop owner for participating in the auction, etc 

I was at the auction in person, and recognized a few of the Baltimore area OGR forumites from their avatars.  (I will have to add me avatar if I can ever take a good picture! )

 

Probably 50 - 60 folks in person at the auction.  There were a few folks who must have been dealers who picked up a lot of the Williams stuff.  Prices (including the 18% buyers premium were reasonable).  Most of the folks present seemed to be hobbists.  As with an auction, some lots went for less than I thought and some went higher.  I was kinda suprised at the price of silhouete passenger sets, many of these went for more than I thought they would. 

 

I only picked up three lots, but one of them was a very nicely done oil painting for the train room that was at a very reasonable price.

 

Overall, I think it was a good sale.  I think there were a lot of satisfied buyers and I would think that the creditors will get what they could have expected to receive in any auction environment.

 

Jim 

Sounds like stuff went cheap?

 

Gunny

Some stuff.  Certainly a lot of the Rail King and Williams lots went for what I thought were fairly low prices.

 

- Mike

JD and Mike, I thought they were giving the williams stuff away. Those girls gg1 pass sets list for 600, were going for 100, to bad there a hard sell

 

I was SURPRISED at how much the K-Line stuff went for

 

JD, sorry on the Rail King, I ran em up and won most of it..........  I still feel, even after buyers premium, I came in lower than whole sale. 

 

The MTH Premiere went reasonable

 

I wish I had more money for this one, but the wife wants new furniture for Christmas  and after she saw what I spent, I HAVE TO BUY HER New furniture this year.......  And she said I have to re paint the whole down stairs......Darnit..................