Rate the 3-R streetcars--best to worst

I don't know what you mean by;

followed by the Western Hobbycraft streetcar (although I'm not wild about including a car that uses pirated parts).

Corgi are 1/50.

 

I like the Atlas ten window semi-convertible trolley. It has a wide range of prototypes, generally pre-WWII, although a handful ran in Lisbon, Portugal until 1996. The Bachmann Peter Witt is Baltimore prototype and the Western Hobbycraft trolley a Johnstown, Pa prototype. The K-Line trolley is a Brooklyn prototype and the width and length are good, but the height is out of scale.

 

 

 

From the Q car company website:

 

• <big>Due to the unlicensed use of our parts on their models and unpaid license fees we will not longer convert to power, repair, or provide components for ANY model offered for sale by Car Works of Warren, New Jersey, regardless from what source they were purchased. The same embargo exists for the Western Hobbycraft Johnstown car for the same reason.</big>

 

Jeff C

 

I'm not at all familiar with the Atlas car. So it scales out good for 1/48 scale? Is the K line car not tall enough?

 

Jeff C

 

 

The Atlas car is the Industrial Rail trolley, but without the fire issues and metal gears instead of plastic on the Industrial Rail trolley.  Separate thread here. And another thread here.  I'm not sure how it scales out.

 

At 1/48 the K-Line trolley scales out to 17 feet high whereas the prototype is 12 feet high. The top of the pole measures 24 scale feet, overhead is usually 18 to 22 feet.

Well, I don't know about any dispute with Q Car or what it involves, but in my opinion the Western Hobbycraft trolleys (no longer being made, but possibly still available) are the very best 3-rail O gauge trolleys around.  Beautiful scale models in every respect.

 

I also like the Bachmann Peter Witt car, MTH trolleys (with PS2), the Atlas Industrial Rail trolleys, the Corgi models, and some Lionel models, pretty much in that order.  I have plenty of each in my extensive trolley collection.

I'm trying to look at the various models from a 3-R scale perspective, and I agree that the WH model is a good Looking scale model. I own a Corgi Pcc and a birney and they are nice models, but they look a little odd running on 1.25" track.

 

Jeff C

Commenting strictly on appearance/scale fidelity, St. Petersburg is far and away the best and most expensive.  Powering the models obviously adds to the expense.  Would rank Corgi next, even though the PCCs are scaled 1:50.  They do match up nicely with their 1:50 GM transit buses, however.  Corgi Birneys are 1:48, I believe.  Would rank Western Hobbycraft next, but only for Johnstown.  Los Angeles and San Francisco are in the ballpark for their real-life counterparts but not exact.  Like Western, Bachmann Peter Witt is accurate for Baltimore only, and somewhat in the ballpark for LA.  Other cities are laughably off.

 

Following the rules of the game, haven't included oldies like Car Works, Ken Kidder, and MTS, although they do show up from time to time.  If one of these appear on ebay, grab it if you can afford it.

 

 

Trolleys came in a very wide range of track gauges.  Historically non-standard gauges were often a franchise condition so railroads could not buy up traction lines and run freight cars down city streets.

 

The prototype for the Corgi PCC is the Philadelphia Transportation Company 2700 series which was built for 5 foot 2 1/2 inch track or Pennsylvania Broad Gauge. Pittsburgh, New Orleans and Cincinnati also used this gauge. O gauge track scales out to 5 feet at 1/48 so it is very close to the prototype. Baltimore's track was even wider at 5 feet 4 1/2 inches. The other extreme is Lisbon at 900mm (or under 3 feet).

I have one St. Petersburg Tram Collection and it is a magnificent trolley but care must be taken to keep them out of the sun to prevent warping. Each model is a very limited production. Prices are about $450-$550 for a non-powered model.

I did not include St. Petersburg in my list because I consider them more of a collectible item that an operator item.  Very costly--especially to have them powered--and I am perfectly happy with the scale size and detailing of the Western Hobbycraft models.

 

Again, this is from an operator perspective, and particularly for one who might be looking for a nice trolley as an addition to a model railroad and not exclusively as part of a trolley/traction focus or operation.

The Bachmann Peter Witts are beautiful, but I have one complaint about them.  The rollers are very small, and so are a problem with gaps on the third rail.

 

As for the Atlas Industrial Rail trolley, my one experience was not impressive.  After an hour of running the motor crapped out.

 

Stuart

 

 

i'm looking at it from a trolley/interurban modeling perspective, so I wouldn't rule out a St. Petersburg model, or a brass model. Let's get some perspective on the cost--the total cost of a high end model isn't out of line compared to most scale O 3-R motive power--even with adding a power truck. But I certainly don't mind spending less whenever possible

 

Jeff C

Who out the makes the best looking Brill trolley? 

 

Jeff C

That is a subjective question.  I like the Atlas O trolley, but I'm leery of the Industrial Rail trolley.  The MTH Brill is a more stylized trolley to me.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the Bowser trolleys.  Made of steel, reliable, comes in several color schemes and a little over a hundred bucks last I knew.  No reverse unit though.

Western Hobbycraft.

They are no longer being made.  I have several of them.  They come with open-frame motors and have no reversing capability.  I haven't found them to be anywhere near as detailed as the others mentioned here.  They do have metal bodies and frames, but have plastic roofs.

I thought the detailing on the Bowser Brill was pretty sparse. I was wondering if the MTH BRILL body was any better...

 

Jeff C

Significantly better.

From what I've seen of Q car's website this guy just really, really does not like three rail O scale.

Well yeah...all of his products are directed toward scale trolley modeling, but some of his parts are very useful for anyone involved in O scale traction modeling.

 

Jeff C

quote:

They are no longer being made.

 

According to the Bowser web site, the "O" gauge Brill Trolleys are available. Curiously, they are listed under the discontinued items page.

Here they are: Trolleys

Yes, they are still available--at least some of them--but are no longer being manufactured; hence, the listing as "discontinued."

On their "O" gauge page, there is a banner that says "Many Trolleys are back in stock".

This led me to believe that they decided to make some more.

I guess they could have been put together from parts on hand, or retail returns, or something like that.

That's a trick question. The best runners are the Bowser models, because of the heavy old-time motors. If you add Q car poles and Q car accessories they look good (removing the figures in the window and adding frosted pane). The Gorgi PCC's and Birneys look best, but the beetle motors burn out quickly and only the old-time large motors (which make you remove the seats) are suitable for daily operation. The new Industrial Rail (Atlas) are great, if you buy Q car poles and add a few Q car accessories (wooden walk=boards on root, for example). The MTH trolleys are bizarre in look and scale. Somebody must have been on drugs when he designed their PCC cars. Hobbycraft is good, but they are no longer in production and you have to fib if you want to buy a replacement motor or gears because they are from Q car who have an embargo on servicing them. 

Western Hobbycraft would be my pick. They were priced for any budget at one time. Don

I have the RailKing SF Muni PCC streetcar.  I wish I could find a scale version of this without the silhouette passengers.  Matt

That would be/is my pick as well.  Can't beat them for the money (and detailing).  Smooth operators, too!

 

Unlike Tommy, I do not consider the Bowser Brills or Birneys to be the "best runners" by a long shot.  With the open-frame motors, they are noisy and they run too fast.  And they don't come close to some of the others in terms of overall detailing.

+In all of this discussion no one has mentioned the Golden Gate Electroliner ot the 3 car North Shore Line train.These were available in 3 rail versions.

Those are great, of course, but I think the original post was more directed at what most would regard as convention trolleys…Birneys, Brills, PCCs, and the like.

 

As he noted:  "Let's stick with streetcars that are widely available, or at least somewhat available." 

I would love to have an Electroliner, and there have been a few showing up on Ebay. I'd imagine they would be restricted to 045 and larger curves.

 

I'm licking my wounds right now after an unscheduled $1200.00 car repair--and half of that amount was train money I'd accumulated from e-bay sales of my N scale collection.

 

Jeff C

You are absolutely right. The Bowsers are noisy (but so are real trolley cars) and they do run fast. On the other hand they have a certain "tinplate toy-train charm", which I prefer. But the heavy-duty motors will run continuously for a long, long time, and if the gears are lubricated, better yet. Removal of the plastic window screen allows for more ventilation of the motors. But you are correct in stating there are runners better in scale. slow speed operatrion, and quality. But if I had a store window display going on 24/7 I'd pick a Bowser.

Some of the responders mentioned St. Petersberg cars. I would not say that these fall in the reasonable price category for a 3 rail trolley by the time you power it if you can find a power truck that will work.The probem with 3 rail trolleys is that you only have the Bowser/Pittmen truck or you have to reconfigure an Atlas or MTH power truck to work with the car you want to run. You may have to accept tht the sideframes will not be those  that should be with the body.For 2 rail we have Q-Car with a wide variety of sideframes and at one time Current Line who may or not still be in business.

 I hope the trucks by ScaleRail work out and he can make them commercially available.There are still a lot of the old Walthers North Shore kits floating around and they ae fairly straight foward to build.The power trucks were something else.I went nerly nuts with the first Walthers trolley I built was a North Shore Merchandise Dispatch car.The truck was mounted in a metal ring which held two pieces of the floor together.Ran well tested outside the car but when mounted in the car within the ring would not move.Later on I thought about it and decided there must have eddy currents caused by the ring that caused problems. I kept the truck and after the war scratch built a McGuire Cummings snow sweeper and it worked well.

  Keep on with the trolleys and you will discover the trolley freight both with steeplecabs and box motors and trailers.Don't forget workcars which ran the gamut from rotary plows ,to ice diggers and 4 wheel side dump cars.

  Enough of my prattling just have fun.

I have Western Hobbycraft, MTH and Lionel trolley cars:

a) Western Hobbycraft has superior detail and runs really well, but lacks a modern electronic control system like DCS and Legacy;

b) MTH has 2-truck Brill convertible cars, PCC cars and bumper cars. Overall the MTH cars with DCS PS2 operate the best. The MTH bumper cars run smoother and reverse easily at much lower speed than the Lionel bumper cars.

 

Good points, Bill. I might consider a St. Petersburg streetcar, but it would have to be a model that I just couldn't do without--and so far that hasn't happened.

 

Jeff C

The MTH PCC seems to be based on a Pullman post-war PCC. Only two cities had these cars Birmingham for a couple of years later Toronto (4700s) for the longest time and Chicago. I see it really in the corner windows at the back and the operators side window from some angles.  But where would MTH find a prototype to measure?  There were also post war Pullmans in Boston, Cleveland and Shaker Heights but these were split sash cars.

I like the look of the Corgi cars, even if they are slightly undersize.  That can be a advantage when modeling an urban area I think since these tend to be relatively small portions of a layout.  Bowser makes a power unit for both the PCC and the Birney.

 

As mentioned, the Bachmann Peter Witt is Baltimore prototype (Brill 1930)

and is really only right for Baltimore.  Great looking model though.

 

Bachmann's G-gauge single truck open and closed cars are also based on cars at the Baltimore Streetcar Museum.

 

Dave Wilson

 

 

 

 

I've the red and cream silent version of that one...painted on folks too. I cracked mine open long ago...just because..and found the motor and board would be in the way of any interior..probably a tad worse for sound cars as they'd have more board{s} I'd bet. I toyed with the idea of just seats by the windows and clear glazing, but the motor would still show.....eh, it's good enough - for me.

{and will be even better when I someday soon letter it to Burlington, probably "transpertation dept"!}