Removing TMCC

Please pardon this very basic question, but are you having problems with your TMCC engines when they are being run in command or conventional mode?

 

I have several non-Lionel engines that I currently run conventional (although I hope to hook up my new Legacy base this weekend) and have never run into overheating issues.

 

Jim

my legacy engines which are an upgraded TMCC NEVER even get warm.  And if you have been following my posts I mainly run on the club layout which is a large layout.  now I do not run them for more then an hour at a time but I check the motor when I park them and the motor is not even warm. and I pull around 30 cars at a time plus a caboose.

 

so if your tmcc engines are getting warm I would start looking for an issue.

I think so. At least on some.

The speed sensor is not on the motor, so it should be able to run separate with mods.

Running the motor fwd only from a bridge rectifier, or by adding a reverse unit too.

Once its power is sufficient, the remote could operate sounds.

You might be able to separate the features on the Lionel board?

And I think there is a speed step adj. or max speed you may wish to check out too

 

 

 

How long/heavy are your trains? I have no heat issue at all with my few tmcc in conventional mode. Can or Pullmor, all run pretty cool cool.

Charlie:  If I had to guess, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.  My guess is that your real problem has something to do with your wiring and/or your transformers....or maybe your remote.

 

Yanking out the TMCC "parts" will get you nowhere fast, IMHO.  The cliché of "throwing out the baby with the bath water" comes to mind.

I have around 70 TMCC, Legacy, and DCS command locomotives.  I've never had any overheating issues with anything that didn't have an obvious defect that needed fixing.  Lee Willis runs tons of TMCC/Legacy/DCS stuff all in conventional mode, and I've never heard him complain of this issue either.

 

I have to believe there's something else working here.

 

I believe Alex M. got one of those last year at a show. While at the show, some knowledgeable train guys knew something about them and remedied and tested on their layout before he went home. There is something that binds the drive. Not in the repair manual.

 

Email him about it.

 

here's one old thread;

https://ogrforum.com/t.../slow-dragging-motor

 

Ok, here's Alex M. thread-old hard grease and a hard break-in needed.

https://ogrforum.com/t...show-in-somerset-n-j

 

So, don't gut it, tune it and it will look and run great!

I also agree that there is something else wrong. I have several TMCC engines, several Legacy engines, and several conventional engines. They all run about the same heat wise (barely warm) pulling at least 10 cars for a hour or more. All of the will fly off the track at full throttle so how fast any one runs is not an issue. Making the engines conventional can be done but I don't think that will cure your problem. I would be looking for a motor alignment problem that's causing it to bind maybe.

Ron

Something here may be having an effect on speed & controls.

 

http://youtu.be/l3HmEZ_qw5Y

 

 

 

 

Could incorrect power supply phasing, be the heat issue source?

What power supply(s) are you using?

If more than one, are they phased correctly by testing? 

 

Thank-you for your responses and the link to the big guy in the Lionel video. I did not understand much of either, sorry, but I will address your responses as best I can. I am middle-aged, hear me ramble.

 

First, I have a ZW-C with the 180W packs, one on the track and one in the carton (18V x 10A=180W to the track.) The track is a 15'x12' oval using atlas with 091 curves and a siding with 7.5" turnouts. The track is just laid on the bare wood floor with an additional hot wire running to the opposite side of the track to prop up the voltage. From this humble setup, I hope to learn enough about model trains to set up something more permanent. For now, I want my mistakes to be easily fixed. I find the atlas track, with its 5/64ths flat top, to provide superior surface area to give locomotives the most traction possible.

 

I own the two 700e's and a 6-18009 L3a that are, mercifully, non-command units. These 3 non-command units fly around the track and even tip a little in the atlas 091 curves, but they have no traction tires and the drivers are not sprung, so they slip easily and can't pull too many die-cast freight cars at once (side note: I refuse to play with lighter plastic trains because it makes my skin crawl to hear them clicking around the track.) The 763's are almost identical to the 700e's except that they come with a wireless tether, traction tires, TMCC, and some extra lights, and they run extra slow in conventional mode, even with the old grease chipped out and replaced with new stuff. I'm also running the gunmetal Commodore Vanderbilt with TMCC, a close cousin of the 763's, and it also plods along, although it is a little faster than the 763s. I also run two 6-28069 CCII TMCC Niagaras, which are pretty fast and pull long trains, but they are plagued with design flaws, including plastic drive shafts that easily break, so they've spent most of their life in the carton at the repairman's shop (6-8 week turnaround time.) My Legacy Milwaukee Road S3 4-8-4 (6-11267) is comparable to the Niagaras, but with a stronger drive train. My only non-steamer is a UP Veranda which is almost as fast as the non-TMCC 700e Hudsons and L3a Mohawk, except that it has traction tires and pulls 20 die-cast freight cars without hesitation. That's it for my stable. I'm not trying to show off, but I figured someone might have a tip to make one or the other run better. I also have some post-war Marx and Lionel stuff that I accumulated when I didn't know any better (3/16th-scale on O-gauge track looks dumb.)

 

I bought the Legacy 990 system last November 1st at the show in Syracuse because everyone I know is screaming about how great command mode is and my dream was to one day run an actual lash-up with a long train. I hooked up the 990 and, after many calls to Lionel customer support and a trip back to the dealer for a demonstration, got each locomotive with tender rolling in command mode (except for both of the Niagaras sitting in the repair shop.) The 990 is incredibly complex and the Lionel support rep admitted that the software is poorly designed and the manual is poorly written (both the GUI and manual are created by Lionel systems engineers FOR Lionel systems engineers.) One by one, I ran each of my locomotives using the 990, with the tender for sound, and pulling nothing else. Each lasted only a few minutes before overheating and slowing to a crawl. The 990 has sat in the box ever since and the dealer says that it is not the cause of the problem even though nothing overheats when run for hours in conventional mode with a heavy train in tow. The Lionel customer support rep also had no answers as to why the 990 was causing my engines to overheat. Anyway, at least partial store credit is an option (no refund because this barely used 990 is still "used".)

 

So, I am hoping to remove the TMCC or Legacy from my locomotives because command mode is too confusing to be fun, it tries to destroy my engines, and I think that the on-board command circuitry must be introducing a parasitic load that impedes performance in conventional mode. Once this is done, I hope these engines will run as fast or faster and pull longer trains than my 25-year-old conventional units.

 

So, is TMCC/Legacy a plug-and-play item that can be easily removed while preserving the Railsounds and smoke? Can TMCC/Legacy be removed at all? If not, it seems that I should dump the 763's, Commodore Vanderbilt, and Niagaras on eBay and reinvest in simpler-running Williams/Weaver/3rdRail/Key/OMI/PSC-type units. The S3 and Veranda run well enough in conventional mode to suppress their TMCC/Legacy provenance, so I'm keeping them and leaving them unaltered.

 

I've watched many hours of the big guy from Lionel talk about TMCC & Legacy and managed to learn some things, but the little guy doing the 990 videos needs to step away from the coffee because he talks way too fast. What I have pieced together so far, from experience, is that TMCC/Legacy is a poorly executed idea that makes running trains a nightmare. Maybe the hardware and software from MTH is easier and better to use, but I haven't tried it and it will take me a long time to sell off my Lionel stuff before I can get enough money to re-equip with MTH, or 2-rail, or Lithium-ion/remote or whatever.

 

I have not researched the ogr threads or forums, etc. I just google a topic and hope there is a link to one of them. I am not a web genius and I don't know how to navigate this kind of website or even facebook for that matter. Your replies are appreciated and they are forwarded to my Hotmail account for easier reading. I'm hoping, at the very least, that this reply gets posted to the right thread ("removing TMCC".) If not, I apologize if I've interrupted a discussion about something else.

what volt is the transformer set at when running in command mode?

 

again all the 990 does is tell the engine what command you tell the hand held to carry out.

 

a few things to try;

more power drops, you stated "with an additional hot wire running to the opposite side of the track to prop up the voltage."  add some more.

 

what size wire are you using?  14 and 12 gauge is what the club used and I feel that is too small.

 

 you stated "What I have pieced together so far, from experience, is that TMCC/Legacy is a poorly executed idea that makes running trains a nightmare."

 

in my opinion nothing could be farther from the facts.  legacy hooks up to your layout with ONE wire on the outside rail. turn it on, push your engine number, turn red knob and run a train.  there is a good possibility that you are over thinking this, (have seen this at our club, until I explain how simple it is).

 

 

is there a club near you that you could go to and they will help.

 

if you were in san diego we would.

You are the first guy I've read that wants his engines to go faster.  Most guys are interested in slow speed operation.  Why don't you just run them in conventional with your ZW?  I do agree the Cab2 is more complicated than it needs to be, especially for a first timer.  Maybe you should use the Cab1L.  It is much easier to understand and work with.  Then you can learn more about the Cab2.  As far as the overheating issues, I defer to the other guys.

Charlie,

With the Legacy 990unit completely disconnected from the track, have you tried running the offending engines (the ones you say are too slow) in conventional mode from the transformer? If, they are still running too slow, i would suspect the problem to be mechanical and not TMCC related. Report to us on this test.

Next you mentioned chipping out old grease; are you sure you were able to remove all of it? Every last bit? Sometimes it is necessary to use a grease cutting solvent like WD40, and then blot/wipe out all the remaining solvent prior to adding fresh grease - Lucas Red & Tacky seems popular with many respected members here, although my preference is Bosch Purple Grease.

Now report back to us.

 

jackson

If your control system checks out ok,  you might want to replace the 18056 motor brushes.  I did and its top speed has increased quite a bit.

Try this and it will answer a lot of questions some body near you has to have a layout with command hooked up to it see if you can take your command engines over and see how they do there( your local hobby shop should I would think) and see if there's the same problem if not it tells me either the unit or something isn't wired correctly it could be as simple as you have the ground wire going to center rail from transformer so the wire from the outside rail to the command unit isn't hooked to ground.  Which might cause a problem as your not getting a correct current as it's hooked up backwards. ( I might be saying this wrong and may be confusing you as you say your not that much electronic wise ( I'm not either but have learned do some things with trains) any way what I'm trying to say is if you accidentally hooked your center rail to the ground hook-up on the transformer and hooked the pos on the transformer to the outside rail and the command unit you may be causing some interference that could be doing some of this as you say your conventional engines run fine.  

A quick way to tell if the connections are reversed would be blow the horn/whistle. If the bell rings, its reversed.

I don't know how imperative AC input & neutral polarity is for signals, or earth ground either. 

 

I know that works for conventional engines with horn/whistles and bells but wasn't aware it was also the same in command mode but thinking about it it does kinda make sense but for some reason seems I did that once and it didn't matter but knowing me probably wrong. Again I'm not that up on the electronics really.

You can simply unplug your TMCC or Legacy, run ONE ENGINE AT A TIME in Conventional Mode, and try the horn/whistle vs. bell trick.

 

You're really trying to eliminate the obvious...or as much as you can...at this point.

 

Visiting a layout with TMCC and/or Legacy up and running can't be beat either, IMHO.  Again, just try to eliminate one potential issue at a time.

If the engine has can motors,  you can't just chuck the electronics and run on AC. You have to do something else.

 

Concerning the question about MTH engines with all their electronics, running conventionally, I would say Mr. Wolf has one heck of an accomplishment, they run really smooth. I have had two MTH powered engines I bought on a whim. One was a CTA set, very smooth starts, sold it in a "Something has to go today" rage sell. Another was a set of Chicago Central GP30, gave them to my younger bro that is a DCS guy.

The "polarity" or "phasing" of the transformer connections doesn't affect operation in TMCC.  The key in TMCC is connecting the command base to the outside rail.

If you haven't tried it, do the same conventional test with a Legacy locomotive, you'll have a similar experience.

But what MTH has done to allow activation of features like firing either coupler, starting or stopping PFA, and turning cruise on or off, locking out reverse unit, and now turning on or off a light feature conventionally with bell and whistle, is quite an accomplishment and added benefit for the conventional operators.   G

I read this topic earlier today and it stuck in my craw.  I'm starting to see a pattern.

 

There was a similar topic not long ago.  In it, I mentioned experiencing the same problem with my 18071 SP#4449.  I suggested a proper lubrication would solve the issue since that was what I had done.

 

Wrong!  What initially seemed corrected finally stopped moving completely.  No amount of resetting solved the problem.  Power operates the smoke, sound and lights but no go.  As these electronic brains begin to turn 20 years old I'm wondering if the boards finally crap out due to aged capacitors?  It's common for electrolytics to die because of long periods without use.

 

I have the offending engine on the bench now and will swap out the caps on the L2RU board...hopefully tomorrow.  What have I got to lose?  Will check back with the results ASAP.

 

Bruce

Those LCRU 2 were pretty bullit proof, and I don't think they were heavy on capacitors.

 

Cold solder joints, broken wires under the insulation from the movement, occasional TRIAC or optical isolator failure.

 

If this is the LCRU 2 version without the programming pins, I would do a RESET with the Lionel codes.  Could be as simple as that.   G

Thanks to everyone who replied. As a forester, and not an electrical engineer, I have no idea what most of you are trying to say, and my lionel repairman does not know how to improve the performance of the 763's or the Niagaras.

 

To recap:

The wiring to the track is correct. The bell sounds with the bell button and the whistle sounds when the whistle lever is pushed on my ZW-C 180W. I learned how to wire bells and whistles using my old TW. The common ground on the 990 Legacy base was wired to the outside rail. I checked all of this before starting this thread.

 

Even before I discovered that it caused my locomotives to overheat, the 990 remote was confusing and it limited the top speed of my locomotives. (Yes, my locomotives ran faster using the transformer and slower using the remote.) The only things I liked about the 990 remote was that it really increased the smoke output and made the whistles a little louder. I should also mention that the 990 controller's performance was erratic: sometimes a locomotive would respond to a command, but often it wouldn't.

 

The ZW-C transformer with 180W power packs is new. The 700e's, Mohawk, Commodore Vanderbilt, Veranda, and S3 4-8-4 all fly around the track. One of the Niagaras did too, when it worked.

 

All but one of the locomotives, a 763, are new. I am the only person to run them other than the Lionel repairman. All locomotives have been greased and oiled, so friction is not the problem. True, the electronics may be 20+ years old, but the 763's still run, although really slow and they barely pull anything, even after replacing the grease and installing traction tires. I'm convinced that the TMCC boards are sucking the life out of the 763's, I just want to know how to remove them and retain the lights, smoke, and sounds.

 

I re-oiled the Commodore Vanderbilt and 763's. The CV is now faster than my 700e's and Mohawk, but still not as fast as the Veranda, which is the fastest, strongest, and heaviest (12 lbs.) Lionel locomotive I've ever seen. The CV, although fast, can only pull about 10 of K-Line's die-cast box cars at once. (The Veranda will pull all 15 of my die-cast box cars plus another 8 die-cast coal hoppers.) So that only leaves the 763's, which showed no improvement after oiling, as candidates for a TMCC-ectomy or the eBay scrapyard.

 

Speaking of the scrapyard, I got word back from Lionel today. There is no fix for the problematic CCII NYC Niagara driveshaft. What's the point of celebrating a century of Lionel with an engine that looks good, but doesn't run? If I want a locomotive that doesn't move, I'll buy one from Hallmark. Lionel had over a decade to fix this problem and their only solution is to recommend that I replace the failed part with the same part. Lionel LLC's apathy is just staggering.

 

Since my first run of each engine using the new 990 Legacy controller, which resulted in every engine overheating, I have kept the 990 in its box and run everything conventionally. I tested the S3 4-8-4 using an older Legacy controller and a ZW-L, at my Lionel dealer, and there were no overheating issues, so I'm convinced that the 990 controller is doing something to make the locomotives overheat, and considering how little these new 990 controllers are selling for, the word must be getting out. Lionel suggested that the ZW-C may not be compatible with the 990 and their solution was to upgrade to the ZW-L. I believe that the 990 is a poorly designed and defective product and see no reason to spend another $900 for the ZW-L to see if I can get the $300-legacy controller to work. Someone suggested downgrading to a TMCC cab-1 remote, which is starting to sound really appealing, although some of my locomotives are equipped with Odyssey and I was warned by my Lionel dealer that TMCC cab-1 remotes do not work well with Odyssey-equipped locomotives.

 

At this point, the solution seems straightforward. Sell or trade in my 990 remote and run all of my Lionel locomotives conventionally. Barring any real solutions for the 763's and Niagaras, sell those as well, since they will always break down or run poorly. Finally, I will be very careful about buying any more Lionel locomotives. If I really need to run in a command environment, I'll start over using an MTH transformer, MTH controller, and MTH locomotives, which will happen just as soon as I win the lottery.

 

If anyone can tell me how to remove the TMCC from the 763s or really fix the driveshaft on a Lionel CCII Niagara, I am still listening. However, I have decided that I will no longer try to make TMCC/Legacy work. Good luck to everyone who still believes in TMCC/Legacy, I'm glad you found a way to make it work and I hope it doesn't ruin your locomotives.

Well, since the 6-18056 has a wireless tether, simply swapping out the locomotive's TMCC board for a conventional AC control board would give you conventional operation and the RailSounds would drop into conventional mode, no changes to the tender required.

 

Let me get this straight. 

1. You want to run your Lionel engines really fast while pulling 15+ die-cast cars and not overheat. 
2. You don't like the 990. 
3. You don't like Lionel service. 
4. You don't like TMCC or Legacy.
5. The Cab-1 wont work like the 990.
6. The ZW-L is too expensive
7. The drive shaft on the CCII Niagra will need to be replaced with a Lionel part and you don't like it.

SOLUTION:

 

Sell all of your modern Lionel equipment.

 

Buy used conventional Lionel, MTH, RMT and/or Williams and don't worry so much. It sounds like you hate what you are doing and life is too short.

Hi Charlie, I hear your frustration and feel for you. You don't need a ZW-L transformer or a ZW-C that is known to have problems from day one. If you still have that old TW hook it up and crank it to 18 volts and then try the Legacy remote. 

 

Give it a try,you maybe suprised !!

 

Doug

Charlie,

I understand your frustration, but really think the problems can be solved. Start by running the locomotives in conventional mode from your old TW, all pulling the same consist of cars. Note any variations in speed and temperature. Then, again using the TW cranked to 18 volts, connect Legacy (one wire), program each engine the same, and run them with the same consists noting speed and temperature. In other words, let's keep as many possible variable constant and see the results.

 

Finally, try to get a local (Rochester, Syracuse, Buffalo) member to come over and try to help sort this out. I'm about 3 hours away in the Albany, Schenectady Saratoga region or i'd consider heading out your way to try to sort this out.

 

Don't give up yet.

 

jackson

Charlie, after seeing what you use, I don't doubt that you are hooked up correctly.

But at 15'x12' you may not have enough drops.

 A slight loss in amps could play a large roll in your heat problems too.  Although the track is newer (I assume), wire conducts much better.

Something like this should be tried even if you go 100% conventional.

One feed on each side of switches at least. Moving them, even inches, has results. There are going to be slight gains, and losses experienced, in different locations, by different locos too

 

 

 I'm not a "command" fan, but it seems like it interested you enough to try it.

Out of fairness to yourself, if not the mfg; To not pursue a simple solution, but gut it all instead, and spend more money, on what are actually similar products, just seems like a reaction, not a well thought out decision.

  But if that's your choice, it can be done. Williams by Bachmann, and others, also carry an electronic reverse board you could use along side your sound boards.

 Anyhow IMHO, that's why your not getting straight "how to" answers at this point. 

Nobody wants to be hated later for helping you now, in what may be a bad choice.

 That said, price reverse boards, and maybe a bridge rectifier for can motors, depending on the board capabilities.

 You will need to do some basic electronics work. A meter, and a soldering iron might even be required. I learned to solder in 4th grade, its not hard with the right stuff.

 (hey you can measure the conductivity, and wattage of the trees later if you want )(really) Or just use the iron for wood burning a new nametag after

(sounds like you have/had a cool job)

Just to update, my plan did not work.  Since this is beginning to diverge from the OP's issues I'll leave it at that.

 

Bruce