Replacement speakers for K-Line Shay

Trainman-

I've been pleased with the speaker included in the Electric Railroad kits, so I would recommend messaging Boxcar Bill for his input. I've seen small 2W speakers on eBay too, but I would recommend going to Bill first.

-John

None of those speakers will fit. They need to be the pancake type no taller than 6mm. ERR and BB speakers are too tall.

Call up Brasseur Electric Trains, 989-793-4753, they have all the parts you need.  I had the same problem and got mine from them here is the number you need to tell them.

Or go to their site,

http://www.traindoctor.com/contact/contact.asp

Great people and fast delivery.

laz57

Not trying to be smart but I guess people just don't bother to read the original post. I know about Brasseur trains speaker. The problem is the it is too weak. In order to work well with the RS board you need a speaker that can handle at least 1 watt.

That is what is wrong with the K-line speakers and the replacement one at Brasseur. It cannot handle the wattage coming from the audio board. That is why they make an annoying crackle sound and often fail.

TRAINMAN9,

  My speaker went dead and when I put the new one in it worked just fine. Just trying to help.

Thanks. I just want to go a little better than just replacing what was there.

Do you have the owners manual? I'd like to have a copy.

Hi TRAINMAN,

  Yes I have a copy.  My wife will scan it tomorrow, and then I can email it to you.

Hi TRAINMAN,

  E mail me and I will forward the scanned copy K-line Shay manual.  Email address is in member file.

laz57

The problem with trying to upgrade the speaker is apparently they didn't leave enough room for an improved model.

Just sent e-mail. We lost our power due to severe storm. Just got it back.

That's right. When K-line designed the engine they had to use Lionel TMCC boards, motor driver, audio and the R2LC. They take up a lot of room so they were forced to use a very shallow 2 1/4 inch speaker. When Lionel redesigned it they used the Legacy boards which did not take up as much room so they were able to use a mini-Fatboy speaker rated at 2 watts.

I did receive the speakers on Friday. They were not the listed wattage on the suppliers web site. They were marked 8 ohm 0.5 watt. I called and complained they got a tech on the phone who looked up the specs and said they will handle up to 1 watt. So I'm going to try it out and install one. The do have a mylar cone, the K-line one is paper, so that might improve the sound. I'm also going to replace the sound chips with Lionel Shay ones, K-line used a generic Atlantic steamer sound set.

I'll post the results.

Actually, as evidenced by the K-Line cruise control, they apparently weren't restricted to using Lionel's motor drivers.

MTH has some 50mm 2 watt 8 ohms, and there are even others that are smaller, Think Lionel does too.

That is the problem with some of these discount electronic sales sites.  The speaker isn't always the one shown on the web.  Seems like they get clearance speaker lots.

The 8 ohm .25 and .5 W speakers are pretty standard from Lionel, Williams, and MTH conventional locos.  G

Do you have the part number for the MTH speaker? I'll hold off installing the one I have until I can get that information. 50mm might work but the height might be a problem. It cannot be higher than 8 mm.

Well in any event there is very little space inside the engine due to the height of the boards.

The closest thing I see in the MTH speaker chart is the BF-4500010 and it's only .5 watts, it's 50mm x 9mm.  I seriously doubt you'll find a 2-3 watt 50mm speaker that's 8mm tall or less, certainly not from MTH.

Height is the biggest issue. I did a lot of internet searches before finding one listed by Mouser. The specs on their website indicated the correct dimension 2 1/4 inches and less than 9 mm in height. It was listed as being 8 ohm and 1 watt.

What I got from them was 8 ohm and 0.5 watt. The tech said it can handle up to 1 watt without distortion. What do you think?

I think I'd probably believe the ratings from the manufacturer, but I've never seen the speaker.   It's probably more trouble to send it back than keep it, so give it a try.

FWIW, a proper baffle makes a huge difference in sound, even a thin one around the speaker back.

I second that. And if you do, please let me know!

I'm sure a lot of people would love to find such a product.

Yes, your height restriction knocks down the list but here are a few examples:

MTH BF-4500013 is a 8 ohm 45mm dia 8mm tall .9W made by Unison

BF-0000010 is the 8ohm 28mm dia, 7mm tall 1.0W also Unison

The Climax BF-0000029 is a 16ohm 40mmx28mm 5mm tall 1.9W  This may be an OK fit for a RS Audio set up even though it is 16ohms.  The Climax had good sounds despite this small speaker.  This was a STAR.  Unfortunately it may no longer be available.

In HO MTH has an 8ohm Veco that is 28mm dia 5.4mm tall at 1.5W and a 11.4mm tall at 2W.   G

None of those would work because they are not the right diameter. The speaker area in the frame is exactly 2 1/4 inches in diameter and the fit is important. It is held in place by the black interior insert in the cab.

I did the installation the other day and also replaced the generic chips with Lionel Shay RS chips. The new speaker is performing much better than the original due in part to it having a mylar cone instead of a paper one. The sound volume is much higher with little if any distortion.

One thing that I did discover is there is a little more clearance than I thought. The only thing that would need to be done to allow a taller speaker is to move one of the capacitors on the audio board to one side and I would have about 3/4 of an inch of clearance. The only other issue is still the diameter. I have found 2 and 3 inch 8 ohm speakers with ratings of 1 and 2 watts but I'm not sure they would work.

For now I'm going to live with the new speaker but keep looking around for a better alternative.

Not sure why smaller diameter doesn't work.  There are other methods to restrain the speaker.   G

If the replacement speaker has a reduced  diameter, there wiil possibly be pre-existing holes in the frame that are now fall "outside" the diameter of the new cone size. It is essential that these holes  be *completely sealed* so that there is no short air-path between the front of the speaker cone and the rear of the speaker cone. 

Good idea.  I'd probably find a plastic cap of the right size and bond it to the speaker to insure it was acoustically isolated, I notice that when I do this for other applications I get a lot better sound.  That way you can just secure the assembly with a little tape or hot glue in the speaker location.

The frame of the shay has a 2 1/4 inch round section where the speaker sits. There are no mounting holes of any kind that would secure the speaker. The speaker is held in place by the three screws that are inserted in the cab interior piece which is made of black plastic where the engineer and fireman sit on either side. Once the screws are inserted it is a very snug fit.

There is not enough room to do that.

I'm going to do a search for 2 inch diameter 8 ohm speakers and see what I can find. As far as I can tell I should be able to secure it using the existing method, three screws holding the cab interior in place, used for the 2 1/4 one.

I think there would be only a 1/8 inch space between the sides of the 2 inch speaker and the insert in the frame where it would sit.

However, for now I'm going to see how well the one I installed performs before replacing it.

Well, I found two 2 inch speakers. 8 ohm 1 watt with a depth of 7mm and the other 8 ohm 2 watt with a depth of 1/2 inch. The former will fit and the latter would be close. Both use mylar cones and have great frequency response.