Saginaw PRR 4-6-0 G5 - Advice and Information Needed

SHould be able to replace those screws pretty easily even if you have to re-bush the siderod. I'd probably just try and turn a copy of the missing wheel on my lathe , understand if you don;t have a lathe, that won't work.  Saginaw only made those three loco's.  I do not know if the the CLW 2-8-0 lead wheel would be the same or not..  If you decide you don't want to mess with it, I would be very interested as I am sure would others lol.

The other thing I would say is that it is pretty likely that those side rod screws were actually originally hex head.  That is the way most of my SC loco's are/were.  The screw on the front wheel may be a replacement, those are the ones that had to be flush to clear the mainrods.  My SC instructions actually say to install the hex head screw and then file it down till it clears the main rod lol.

But this is Saginaw.  I agree that the rear hex head is probably original, as is probably the front slotted head screw.  But I question the eccentric screw - that has to clear the eccentric rod.  Check that first.

Ignore the side rod looseness, unless the drivers bind up.  Re-bushing and re-quartering are advanced topics.

Lead truck?  Just buy a used freight truck with steel wheels, and steal them.  Might have to unpress and press a wheel.

Is it 2-rail?

Nice find Jim, is there a story that goes along with this loco? On my Saginaw H-10 the driver nearest the cylinders is just a pin, no screw or hex nut. This sounds a lot like what Dennis is describing, as in his SC instructions.     cTr.....( Choose the Right )

that looks like it was well built.    It should work out nicely if the mechanicals work out.

As for the lead truck, the freight truck idea is good.    Also getting an axle from an H10 (2-8-0) is good.    I checked the prototype diagrams, and that lead truck, and the lead truck on the PRR H10 both used 33 inch wheels.    so the wheels should match on the models too.    And most freight cars in that era  used 33 inch wheels.    I think .667 is 33 inches in O scale.

I have  used freight truck engineering plastic wheels on a couple of steamer lead trucks because the metal ones sometimes hit the frame and shorted out - this is 2 rail.     I used Athearn wheelsets and simply ground the needle point off the end of the axle.     i did have to shim the axle in the truck sometimes.

As for the slotted screw and hex screws.    In the photo it looks like that slotted screw is countersunk into the side rod to provide clearance for the main rod to rotate by.    The hex nuts on the other wheels are probably original too.   If the screws and wheels have good threads, I would keep them as is.    You could make or find bushings perhaps for the rod holes if needed but wait and see how it runs as mentioned above because doing anything to any of the rod holes, may affect quartering.

Thanks for all the replies. I know nothing about the history of the engine. Would the kit have required the builder to add all the piping, and would the materials have been included? It's way over-scale in thickness. Do I leave or try to replace?

Freight truck wheels are an idea but would lose some of that original "clunkiness". (Here I am talking about preserving the "clunkiness" in the trucks while thinking about eliminating it in the piping!) It's a 2 rail engine; the missing wheel has an insulated center. The remaining wheel on the other axle has a fiber washer behind to prevent shorting against the frame.

If those hex screws on the rod are original, the flat washers behind them are a mystery. The washers hide the rod ends. It's unlikely the kit was designed that way. The right front driver rod has the same hex nut and washer; the left has the slotted screw. The left is the only rod without slop.

While I have not yet taken this apart, it appears the drivers are captive to the frame. Same with the lead truck.

More to come.

Progress.

Now at home I shot the rod screws with WD-40 and let it sit a while. The screws would still not loosen. Heating the heads with my 80 watt soldering iron for about a minute did the job. So far I've unscrewed the right rear and center driver screws.

The shouldered hex screws indeed look original. The shoulder diameter is 0.125 as is the diameter of the center driver threaded crank pin. The hole in the main rod is a loose 0.125, maybe about 0.127-8; the rearmost side rod hole is a tight fit at 0.140 and the hole is not round. So, the clearance is in the 0.015 range.  Seems awfully sloppy to me.

As to the washers. They have square holes and appear to have been added to better contain the rods behind the hex head screws. They can't be original. When it all comes apart I'll see how it rolls with rods on and motor off. Remember, I'm the guy without track or a layout, but I do want to see this old girl working right.

@jjscott posted:

Thanks for all the replies. I know nothing about the history of the engine. Would the kit have required the builder to add all the piping, and would the materials have been included? It's way over-scale in thickness. Do I leave or try to replace?

Yes, the original builder would've formed all the piping and even drilled holes for the stanchions himself. I'd leave it, it looks good. I've never had an unbuilt Saginaw kit, but I assume they included several brass or copper wires in the kit, though probably not enough as I've seen with other kits.

Most two railers are not collectors, they are modelers and prefer to make models look most like prototypes, rather than restore them to some original look.    When I say most, that is relative to 3 railers.     I'm sure there are many 2 railers that are collectors also

MY opinion is do the pipes what ever you like.   IF  you want a more prototypical look, go ahead and replace them, if you liek the original model look, just clean them up.

That elongate hole might have been done by the builder to reduce bind rather than caused by wear.   I build an All nation kit years ago, and the instructions included the advice to file the rods to remove bind.

Yes.  Put the rods back on and try a "roll test". - if it rolls freely, do not mess with it.  Have at it with the pipes - I always upgrade my doorstops with lost wax castings and better piping.  Well, not always.

Here is what a really rough Saginaw G5 looks like.  It runs (barely) and is "original".  I haven't had the heart to remove someone else's attempt at hand-lettering.  I am waiting for another G5 main frame (I can trade an H10 frame) to build up a good looking Saginaw G5 to complete my collection.  I may yet fix this one, with new motor, firebox, etc. - but not this week!

that one does not so "rough".    It looks like a little TLC and a new paint job would make a credible model.

but if  you want to keep it as is as a collectible, then I can see looking for a new one.

No - just the frame casting.  I have all the other parts - boiler, cab, tender, cylinder block . . .

The front truck is repaired. I am fortunate in having a metals supply warehouse not too far from my house. They have no minimum order, so I got a 1" piece of brass about the right diameter. A wheel was turned up on my purchased used in 1972 original Unimat. I got it as close to original as my modest machining skills allowed. It's the right diameter at least. The new wheel is on the left.

Nice job...yet another terrific thread about this wonderful old stuff...👍

Mark in Oregon

@jjscott posted:

The front truck is repaired. I am fortunate in having a metals supply warehouse not too far from my house. They have no minimum order, so I got a 1" piece of brass about the right diameter. A wheel was turned up on my purchased used in 1972 original Unimat. I got it as close to original as my modest machining skills allowed. It's the right diameter at least. The new wheel is on the left.

Looks good to me.

Me too.  Welcome to the doorstop club - it can be fun!

Well, the true "horror" of doorstop ownership is now revealing itself as I begin disassembly of the beast. Before starting I put the engine on the sole piece of track I have and touched the tender wire and frame with leads from a 12v battery charger. The results were a few inches of movement forward and reverse. Success, it runs. Pictures are posted for those few souls who have interest in these things. With the boiler off the frame and the headlight removed, a second success was reavealed. The bulb lights.

I discovered the fire box is a sheet brass piece soldered to connect the boiler and cab. Unfortunately, the original builder dented the firebox on the left side to install piping. The dents were noted when I bought the engine; I thought then the builder had filed grooves in the casting. Fixing that without filler would have been a problem. Now, with the firebox being sheet brass the dents should be removable.

In all, the workmanship is fairly crude in both material and method. There are many solder blobs underneath. It takes a massive amount of heat to do anything on the castings. The bell bracket was broken in shipping. I had to resort to my propane torch, then my big Weller gun and desoldering braid to get the mounting screw removed from the boiler. That seemingly simple task is a harbinger of how tough it's going to be to upgrade the G5. I need some time to decide just how much I am willing/able to do.

The frame was laid on its back and power applied to the motor. It does run in forward but jams after 1/2 of driver rotation in reverse. Everything needs a major cleanup before I can begin an assessment.

Jim

Cool stuff, this. 😁

That's an interesting motor; looks like your average open-frame HO type on steroids. Is it a Pittman?

Mark in Oregon

DC - 91.  Good for O Scale; fits in a firebox without those ugly bulges.  Bulges were for the original K&D.

Does the mechanism roll freely each direction, as in down a slight incline without finger help?  If so, don't mess with the rods.  Look for end play in the worm shaft/armature.

If you replace the firebox, you jig the entire thing up securely, then heat only the castings with a Mapp torch and pencil burner.  Takes about five minutes to get the casting hot enough.  Mine has dents too - I plan on doing a new boiler section.  Someday.

It does not roll in either direction. It is so dirty and recently sprayed with WD-40 to try and free up the rod screws that I am soaking the mechanism to begin the cleanup. To get the rods off I will have to resort to the hot soldering iron on screw head method. Hopefully, tomorrow.

Motor looks OK. I was expecting an AC motor similar to what is installed in that early Japanese K-4 I have. Pleased it's DC.

What are you soaking it in? And for how long?

Mark in Oregon

I thought I would just try some dish soap in hot water. I'll let it sit for the night. It may not cut through the old grease and oil. I'll find out. I shot it with carburator cleaner first; it took some of the heavier crust off. For the motor I will use contact cleaner.

@bob2 posted:

...snip... I haven't had the heart to remove someone else's attempt at hand-lettering.   ...snip...

The same applies to this car(one of two) that I have that was built July 1939 by Tommy Arnold:

Note that the other side and the other car is in somewhat worse condition.

One of Weaver's first brass offerings, was the Pennsy G5. 

There was no drawbar on my G5. I assume it was just a flat bar between tender and locomotive. There appears to be a broken screw in the bottom of the loco frame and a brass fitting on the bottom of the tender - with the missing bar connecting the two. Can anyone confirm whether the tender fitting is original? It looks to be cobbled up.

The binding preventing the wheels from turning was caused by a loose eccentric crank. Once freed, the wheels with valve gear attached rotated smoothly. I did have a devil of a time getting the rod screws loose. I was afraid of breaking the screws and leaving a frozen stud in the driver. It took multiple applications of WD-40 and heat to the screws to loosen things up. The right front rod screw has yet to be loosened.

There are some bent valve gear parts that need straightening. While everything is turning smoothly, I don't like the sloppiness.

It looks like the tender frame is wood; what are the pieces that are "covering" the truck screws for?

For those of us who have an interest in this kind of stuff, but not necessarily access to it, these kinds of threads are absolutely invaluable.

I sure appreciate you (and everyone else,really) taking the time to post all this.

Fascinating...

Mark (still) in Oregon

Yes, tighten those rods.  Then, when it binds up, check the quartering.  If adjusting that does not cure the bind, make sure all crankpins are equidistant from the axle centerlines.

Alternatively, when you tighten the rods, do so carefully so you can file open the rod holes back to the point where the imperfectly pinned drivers will roll without binding.

Even real locomotives had some slop.  You can hear it - " clank - clank."

@bob2 posted:

Even real locomotives had some slop.  You can hear it - " clank - clank."

Maybe you could put in a patent for that sound; that way, when Lionel adds that to their already long list of "bells and whistles", you can get the royalties from it... 😁

Mark in Oregon

The first coat of paint remover shows what lies underneath. I am using the last of my original formula Zip-Strip - the version with the skull and crossbones on the can and banned in the developed world. It does take most of the paint off but leaves gooey gelatinous residue in some places. I am surprised at what I found with the paint off.

I thought both boiler and tender would be rough brass castings. They are smooth. Most surprising are the tender rivets which are individual brass pins inserted in drilled holes. I have to wonder who drilled all the holes. Several rows are cast in - those are the smaller sized rivets.

The boiler has a mix of brass, steel and music wire piping. The compressor is white metal (?).  As to those plates covering the truck mount screws on the tender - I think they are designed to stop the screws from loosening.

@jjscott posted:

I am surprised at what I found with the paint off.

Most surprising are the tender rivets which are individual brass pins inserted in drilled holes. I have to wonder who drilled all the holes. Several rows are cast in - those are the smaller sized rivets.

As to those plates covering the truck mount screws on the tender - I think they are designed to stop the screws from loosening.

Isn't that something?

Thanks for the update and please keep them coming. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

That is a surprise!   All of my Saginaw tenders are bronze castings with all rivets cast in.  The two G5 tenders around here look just like yours except sand cast.

G5 tender trucks have been rekitted - in case anyone has an interest in seeing how they are made. The water scoop is on the lower right.

It's been a long haul getting the paint off and the running gear disassembled. I am still working on it. A brake fluid dunk is used for the running gear, paint remover for the boiler.

@jjscott posted:

G5 tender trucks have been rekitted - in case anyone has an interest in seeing how they are made. The water scoop is on the lower right.

It's been a long haul getting the paint off and the running gear disassembled. I am still working on it. A brake fluid dunk is used for the running gear, paint remover for the boiler.

Looking good; and yes, always interested...👍

Mark in Oregon

I've reached my limit with the brake fluid baths. There's little sign of additional paint removal, so it's on to other methods. The very nice lost wax pilot had the remaining paint picked out with an xacto blade. The cylinder casting was cleaned up with Bar Keeper's Friend.  I am unwilling to try it on the frame because the drivers are captive in the frame. Any abrasive left from the Bar Keeper's Friend would mean the likely end of the driver bearings.

The boiler is disassembled as far as I am willing and able to go. The original castings will be retained. The removed piping will get smaller gauge substitutes as a lone upgrade. The dents in the firebox upper corners have yielded to some light hammering from behind along with some pressure from home made "spoons".  I'll take one more pass; it can't hurt.

Removing the paint has raised my assessment of this model. Granted, some details are crude, but the thought and engineering that Saginaw incorporated is actually pretty impressive. The pin that carries the reverse shaft arm is .040" diameter. It is drilled through on the back side to accept an .020" retaining pin! Too bad the left side has been drilled out to .050" and its pin was soldered in.

This will be in a class by itself if you keep it up.  You are spurring me on to get my pieces out and solder a firebox in there.  I can make the main frame if nobody uncovers an undrilled original.

Bob2, can I help with any frame pictures or dimensions?

@jjscott posted:

I've reached my limit with the brake fluid baths. There's little sign of additional paint removal, so it's on to other methods. The very nice lost wax pilot had the remaining paint picked out with an xacto blade. The cylinder casting was cleaned up with Bar Keeper's Friend.  I am unwilling to try it on the frame because the drivers are captive in the frame. Any abrasive left from the Bar Keeper's Friend would mean the likely end of the driver bearings.

A method I've used is a Dremel wire brush for paint and tarnish removal, which has worked very well for what I've needed it for. I'd be interested in hearing how a wire brush does versus other methods.

Thanks for the offer.  I have one original Saginaw G5, so dimensions are at my fingertips.

Hi Jim--You are really in it now !   Ya know I like detailed models,  but in reality, I don't have a home train set, so I belong to a club----And every single time it seems, I take something to the club,,,, Something breaks off !  Valuable models cannot be left there , so the good ones have to be packed and unpacked over and over and each time, more pieces wind up in the bottom of the box--and yeah, I fix them , but it's hard to keep up !  So, these older tanks really make a lot of sense .   That and they were designed for high miles.  Our club is 12 x 75 , so you can pile on the frequent flyer miles just doing a couple laps --the downside is I just melted a gearbox on an import because my hearing couldn't hear and my stupidity couldn't un-stupid  my not checking the lube ,  something that I doubt would happen so quick with an older Sag or Lob as they seemed to hold grease.   Anyway, I'm a fan , so keep at it .