Saginaw PRR 4-6-0 G5 - Advice and Information Needed

Oh and a couple thoughts --Acetone--the 90% acetone you get at beauty supply, not the hardware store stuff.    And , how about soda blasting ? Anybody know if the soda would be abrasive after washing --I kinda don't think so, but not positive  or --or,,, I saw an car restoration video and the guy was using a ice blaster --Yeah, how about that !  It only cost millions I guess, but what a concept !

Probably wasn’t your fault.  Some import gearboxes have brass gears - MTBF is about one hour.

Another surprise uncovered with the removal of paint: The right side rod is a brass replacement, no doubt home made. The remaining rods are bronze. The brass rod is .0895" thick at the crank boss; the bronze rod is .1335" thick. So, somewhere in its active life the original rod left and the new one appeared.

I also thought the rods were nickel plated, with the plating mostly worn away. The dull silver color was actually paint. The long and laborious paint removal continues.

Whoever did that did a nice job.  I do them on a mill, and it is tedious work.

@bob2 posted:

Whoever did that did a nice job.  I do them on a mill, and it is tedious work.

Which makes it all the more awesome that you made one for me for my AN 4-6-0: thanks again, Bob!  👍

Mark in Oregon

So whaddaya gonna do with those rods Jim?   They aren't perfect, but maybe they would be Ok as is with a little work.  Has anybody ever tried coating a bronze casting with solder ?  Like melting a pot of solder and then heating up a bronze casting and dipping it . Sounds crazy, but with some build of solder, the flutes in the rods could be shaped back straight with a scrapper cut to profile --and even the bored holes could them be reamed out to a tighter size --I think solder would be close enough to like a babbit material so it wouyld wear fine .

Maybe wishful thinking, but making new rods is a ceremony,  and I don't think you can flute them without a lathe or mill.  The last set I used a Sherline lathe .  i cut and drilled a block of maple wood  to bolt down to the saddle .  That wood block was more than strong enough and I had used a table saw to make a saw kerf in it deep enough to weaken it so that a bolt could draw it tight holding the rod by it's parallel sides.  where the end knuckles needed clearance I just drilled out clearance holes.   I chucked up an 1/8" end mill into the lathe chuck and after shimming the holding bock of maple to the exact hieght , it was off to the races.  It worked great,,,,buut ...the ends of the flutes were rounded like the mill bit and that always bothered me.

Doing it over , I would go the same way,  but try and get a "wheel" type milling cutter so the operation would be about the same but turned 90 degrees--that would give the horizontal mill shape at the ends just like he real thing .

I know what ever you decide it will be cool .   You're like Mr. clean workmanship -still can't get over that tank car ,  your assembly would have made old Lobaugh blush with pride ..and probably a job offer too !     Kind regards,   J J Davies (Jeff, if there's too darn many JJs...)

That is the way I do it - there is a special name for the cutter, but I forget - I'll think of it soon.  Slitting saw, maybe?

Rods are sufficiently difficult that you only want to do one, then reproduce it.  Add 5% so when the mold shrinks you get properly dimensioned parts.

I will get a photo.  Note my 4-12-2 on another thread - side rods from my masters are on several models.  I made them for Lobaugh Berks, Mikes, and Pacifics, a version for Harriman ten-wheelers in 17/64, and Cab Forwards in 1/4 and 17/64.  They are reversible, so you can have I beam or slab.

Coating with solder is easy - anchor the rod with nails or something on a piece of wood, then flux and distribute solder with an iron or big gun.  Then, while still liquid, wipe with a damp cloth or plain old steel wool.  Presto - fake nickel plate.

Here we go - top 4 from my masters, cast by Dennis & Kathy, now with Stevenson. Bottom is Lobaugh part P-2 for comparison.

Nice job, Bob  !    I've never had a reliable source for casting , so have not done that even though it makes much more sense than fabricating them.   Do you suppose it might be easier to make patterns out of styrene?

I met the Mashburns once and they were a charming couple.   You say they are with Stevenson Preservation now?  Do they accept casting orders?  (provided the customers are not too annoying ?).    Thinking twice about 'solder plating' I have done this and not realized it !   I would think it a great way to go - any downside that you know of ?

Bob Stevenson has the patterns.  My photo shows castings done from my masters.  Bob can work with your patterns, but there is a mold charge.

You can start with Styrene. It is a two-step: make a lost-plastic part, then make a mold from that.  We did that on my PA truck.  Wish I had added the brake cylinders.

No downside to solder plating, unless your valve gear joints fuse.  If you rivet them instead of soldering, that is not a problem.  But if you go to castings, specify nickel silver.

Th G5 running gear is assembled and rolling smoothly. Those large washers that originally were under the rods were either removed when found unnecessary or replaced with smaller turned washers. I made some spacers to fit behind that brass rod to bring it into alignment. The valve gear was messy to get to work properly. I'm not sure I have it aligned correctly. Funny how it rolled so easily before it was disassembled and how much fiddling it took to have it do the same when reassembled.

I don't quite understand why that threaded rod is soldered to the center driver spring hanger on the right side. There's just a cast stud on the left.

I don't recall ever seeing a fully assembled unpainted bronze cast locomotive. Unpainted boilers show up frequently. It will be interesting to see how this is going to look when complete - especially with that brass section separating the front and rear castings. You scale guys will have to humor me on this.

Seems like a shame to paint it; that bronze looks so nice as is... 🙂

Mark in Oregon

There is something wrong with the eccentric crank and eccentric rod.  Study photos of the real G5 - the eccentric should be about 15 degrees ahead of the axle center with rods down, and the eccentric rod should be more or less parallel to the main rod with rods down (bottom dead center).

I figured something was amiss. I had to monkey with the eccentric positions to get smooth rolling. Neither eccentric rod is parallel with the side rods at BDC. The right side is worse than the left.

The pictures show how close to parallel I can get. Everything is really out of wack on the right (edited).

There have been a lot of fingers on this engine in the 80-odd years of its existence. I'm wondering if the valve gear parts are correct. Am I condemned to making new valve gear?

Those are now very close.  For appearance, your radius rod should be pinned to the reverse link on the upper hole, if it will still clear the hanger.  You could lightly trim the hanger if it interferes.  I think the right side hanger is ever so slightly high, and maybe it could be lowered 1/32" or less to give roughly the angle as shown on the left side.

In your photos, it appears that the hanger casting sits right on the frame casting on the left side, and is showing space on the right.  Might be a simple matter of tightening a screw?

And now you have got me measuring for my own G5 frame.  Once I machine it, of course, an original untouched casting will appear, I am sure.

As for brass/bronze unpainted, let me post my GS-1.  I also have an unpainted H10, but no photo ready at the moment.

Bob, your experience has given you a very discerning eye. I measured and discovered the right side hanger is 2mm higher than the left.  The casting is tight to the frame, so the easy fix of a loose screw is out. When dismantling I did notice the hanger casting is not perpendicular to the frame. It also has multiple holes, suggesting a different placement at one point. I ignored the skew, thinking that as long as it rolled freely, it was OK. Wrong. I need to spend some time thinking about fixes.

In the meantime, I made up a new floor for the tender.

Your unpainted GS-1 looks great. My G5 will not be painted. And, thanks to Mark for his interest in this thread.

@jjscott posted:

When dismantling I did notice the hanger casting is not perpendicular to the frame. It also has multiple holes, suggesting a different placement at one point. I ignored the skew, thinking that as long as it rolled freely, it was OK. Wrong. I need to spend some time thinking about fixes.

It's possible to fill misdrilled holes in castings by drilling and tapping the hole, soldering a brass screw into the hole, and filing it until it's flush with the casting. I've done it many times, it works well. You might have to do that here.

Good tip, thanks.

And most good bronze castings can be bent a bit without fracturing.  Try a little gentle pressure to lower the offending hanger.

This is not Saginaw, but it has roots there.  CLW, built by John Eichman - Bought it a quarter century ago and haven't touched it since.  Nice, well-built model.

A nice chunky looking Consol for sure. Does this have metal or plastic driver centers? Knowing you, I would guess "metal"...🙂

Mark in Oregon

No, plastic.  I have several with plastic, and one PRR Decapod with plastic.  Sure, I would trade them for metal in a heartbeat,  but they work fine with all wheel tender pickup.

Fixed. My envisioned nightmare of modifying valve gear linkage lengths turned into a comparatively easy task of getting the gear hanger casting positioned level and square. Removal of the hanger revealed a hump on the right side of the frame where the hanger sat. Before grinding it off I packed the areas around the driver bearings with dampened tissue to keep the bearings free of grit. Some final work with a file resulted in a level surface.

The hanger casting was moved to the rear, using the extra set of holes that were already drilled. The move to the rear holes fixed the left-right alignment problem and allowed for better geometry of the valve gear. There's no obvious explanation as to why there was a second set of holes and why that set was used when I obtained the engine.

Here is another set of pictures. Maybe not perfect, but I am happy with the result. Thanks to all for your assistance.

...much better! 👍😁😁😁

Mark in Oregon

I thought I had brought the tender to the point where it was "restored" to where the original builder would have completed the kit to the point of applying paint. Unfortunately, my photos have shown that I switched the position of the trucks. The front truck should be further back and the rear truck should be as close to the steps as possible. A fix will require unsoldering the wires and repositioning the bolsters. I'll be left with holes to fill in the floor - which will then require paint to hide. One step forward, several back.

The rear ladder was made to replace the damaged original. My ebay cheaper by the dozen Chinese drill bits were incapable of drilling .020" holes in the ladder sides to accept brass rungs. I had to use "U" shaped rungs from strip stock. It's past time to buy some decent bits. How the original builder drilled all those holes for the pin head rivets still amazes me.

First, the tender fix, then on to the boiler.

Yeah, that valve gear is perfect.  You may wind up with the best Saginaw prize!  And nice Dolphin trucks!  Note that CLW versions are 4% smaller.  Boo.

Another nice doorstop story, just wondered why with 3D printing, and a good foundry or sympathetic hobbyist foundry you could do some unique ( custom) door stops, easier said than done I guess. Thats great work Scott, thanks for sharing.       cTr... ( choose the Right )  

The trucks have been moved to a more prototypical location.

The move was easy. The bolster wires were unsoldered. I filled the existing holes with bondo, hit the areas with a bit of glazing putty, then primer, then a coat of flat black spray. I felt the tender was sitting a little nose down, so the front bolster received a .015" shim to raise the body. The tender now looks more like it should.

My work on the G5 is complete. The intent was to show how the Saginaw 4-6-0 may have been built when the kit was issued in 1941. It is unpainted, but it is finished with a coat of flattened 2 part urethane clear - to prevent tarnish or provide a base coat for paint in the future.

It retains some of its scars of use, alteration and abuse. The one change to the engine as purchased was to replace the piping below the running boards. The air tanks had to be moved in toward the center line for the piping to not protrude outside the running boards.  It retains its hooded headlight. I had to make a new tender ladder and lower bracket for the bell. Otherwise, it ends up substantially as I got it.

It's run a few inches back and forth on my single piece of track, powered with a shot from a 12v battery charger. So, I can say it does run.

I'll close with expressing my respect for the original kit builders back then and for Saginaw who gave the hobby a well engineered and designed engine. And, thanks to those forum members who helped along the way.

Jim

Well done!  Thanks for the great photos and sharing your efforts.

Hey Jim -   I just love it when real craftsmen like you resurrect these fine old models !   Whoever built it first obviously cared very much about it  (or he would not have drilled all those rivets!),  but whoever he was, he would be so happy about this !   Once a close friend had a de-rail that caused an Ambroid covered hopper that he built exquisitely, to fall all the way to the floor and smashed it bad--bad enough that he thought it was not repairable .  I took it and in a few weeks, had it back together maybe better than before --He was so delighted !, just beside himself with joy.   well, that was decades ago, and he is gone and his kids sold off his models ,even some of mine that I had loaned him --but I was able to buy it back on Ebay (and mine too) and now looking at it , I get a great satisfaction remembering a really good guy and the fun we had playing with our stupid toys.   So, Jim, good on you for preserving this,  and for all of us, make sure you put your name somewhere on your good models ....And hope that they share the fate that this locomotive has enjoyed.  Great job & over-all constructive , positive attitude.   Thanks so much for taking the trouble to picture and describe this . 

Just beautiful...🙂

Mark in Oregon

I have to say I agree with whats been said above, place your name on it, and a short history. We wont to know!     cTr....(Choose the Right )