Scale GG1 Comparison - GG1s live on!

Bruce - You are correct. Some models have the F on the wrong side. Williams for example uses the same screen on each side and therefore has an "F" on opposite ends of the loco. Others have the F located on the steam generator side per the prototype.

As to Amtrak GG1's, there were several modifications made mostly during the Penn Central era as well as some minor ones made by Amtrak. You piqued my interest on the antenna. I'm going to need to study some photos!

PRR4935 - Williams issued their version of your loco in 4935 for many years. I have two if you are interested in a trade Mine has less than 5 minutes of run time on it and is current in the box. I bought it new in 2007. The other one, which I plan on keeping was an early version issued with sound.

Jonathan,

I never quite caught on to the Same masks on both sides of the williams!!! They always confused me!

Now I now why! Yet another valuable lesson from this great thread.

quote:

Originally posted by GG1 4877:

PRR4935 - Williams issued their version of your loco in 4935 for many years. I have two if you are interested in a trade Mine has less than 5 minutes of run time on it and is current in the box. I bought it new in 2007. The other one, which I plan on keeping was an early version issued with sound.

Jonathan, that's a tempting offer. I'll send you an e-mail to discuss further.

I've been doing some very detailed research on the construction of the prototype GG1 and this little bit of information I found to be of interest to the modeling community.

The metal panels that were welded together to form the body were a mere 3/32" of an inch thick. Obviously they were connected to the equivalent of a I beam truss bridge with a 12" concrete floor for strength. What was interesting is that looking at any of the cast offerings of this model - both plastic or metal is that the 0 gauge castings are nearly as thick as the protoype!

Interesting tidbit of the day for those who find this stuff interesting. Obviously I do

The PRR had a WHAT? A 4-6-4 H!@#$%! In Steam?

 

... only 18 days before this thread celebrates its first birthday!   (April 03, 2008 05:49 PM)

Geeeeeeeeee!!!       (G one!)                 So where's the countdown clock ???  
 

... and I forgot to ask           .... where's the party being held ?         Do I have to bring a present ???  
 

Alan,

Party sounds great. I wish I could find the picture where my mom made me a GG1 cake when I was 6. Chocolate icing works out pretty well for a tuscan red locomotive! I'll bring the cake - you bring the G's!

Now, time for some more random images .....

Not everyone's favorite scheme, but at least this one made it to the end with most of it's PRR colors!

Here is mine sitting at the station. Yo think the scale GG is long? the loco next to it is a little joe (stalin) and its fully two inches longer (so about 8 feet longer IRL).

Got my Jeff Sohn repaint of the gawdawful Congo silver version of the JLC GG-1 back. Beautiful. DGLE 5-stripe, buff Clarendon lettering like it was when the world was right. When I get a round tuit I'll post a photo.
Funny thing-the couplers have no structural support. They hang out in the breeze supported only by a bitty little spring. Anyone else seen this? Can't pull anything with them as they are. I suppose I can try Lionel for new parts, whatever they are. Or go fully OS3R and hang KD's on the loco.

Rex - give it the 0S3R treatment. Mine will be getting it's own soon enough. For what it's worth, the JLC is a good puller. I don't have any problems with the 'gigantor' couplers for now.

In the meantime, my latest GG1 images from the weekend photo thread and introducing the new Bachmann 4854 and an all Pennsy line up in Tuscan and DGLE.

I guess this thread turns one today. To celebrate, here are my most basic thoughts when it comes to trains:



And to follow up with the lasest GG1 shots out of last weekends photo thread and some other miscellaneous items:



My oldest GG1 - 1946 and older. The original kits were offered in the mid 30's Article is reposted from one I did for the TCA Desert Division Dispatch a few years back.

Thanks again for this thread, Jonathan. Since I first read it, I have doubled my GG1 collection. I may sell one or both of my Williams scale models if I can ever find them.

quote:

Originally posted by J. S. Bach:

Reminds me of a picture of the real ones lined up in Philadelphia for an Navy - Army football game back in the fifties.

It sure does.........

                                 

 

quote:

Originally posted by ChessieMan:
Thanks again for this thread, Jonathan. Since I first read it, I have doubled my GG1 collection. I may sell one or both of my Williams scale models if I can ever find them.

Chessie Man,

If you find those Williams scale GG1s let me know. After getting my first Williams scale GG1, I'm thoroughly infected now and need more. I'm thinking Tuscan 5-stripe next, then DGLE 1-stripe, and so on and so on ...

I worked down by Terminal Ave in 1973 building I95 and all I saw were...






JohnnyJT
South Philly

After input from Forum Members and this thread, I took the plung and got a Lionel JLC GG1 #4876 Brunswick Green Five Stripe - 1939.

I absolutely love it! The pantagraph action and sounds are SUPER! Also the exhaust blowoff is really cool.

I had one O72 curve that was too tight, and it didn't like that, so I reworked the curve and all is well! Good thing I don't have all of my track secured down yet.

This model is all that everyone said it would be. I'm a happy camper!

Thanks to Jonathan and all who made this purchase possible.

Hi Guys

Here are my GG-1s...



Top to Bottom...

G USAT
O Williams Bach
O Williams
HO Pemco Brunwick Gold 5, Tuscan Gold 5 Strips
HO Riverossi Brun Yellow 5 Strips, Amtrak Black
HO Riverossi CR 1776
N Kato Brunswick, Arnold-Riverossi Brunswick Yellow 5 Stripe
N Arnold-Riverossi Tuscan Yellow 5 Stripe
Z Marklin Brunswick Gold 5 Strips


JohnnyJT
South Philly

If anyone is interested in a Lionel JLC scale GG1 in the red 5-stripe scheme, there is one on ebay now for $525.

I'm seriously thinking for purchasing my first scale Lionel GG1. I know it has been probably asked many times before but can someone please tell me how much a new scale Lionel JLC tuscan red 5 stripe should go for on the secondary market. I seem to be leaning towards the tuscan red passenger color scheme instead of the more traditional PRR brunswick green.

Either way, the GG1 is certainly one of the most unique engines to ever operate along the Northeast Corridor, and I've finally decided to take the plunge and get one!

A high/low price range would be most helpful.

Thanks

I just came back from a train shop I visit as much as I can about 20 miles north of Harleysville. I haven't been there for a couple of months and when I walked in Bonnie asked me if I still wanted the Lionel GG1 (JLC Tuscan Red 5 stripe) that I expressed interest in a couple of months ago. I can't believe she actually took it off the shelf and put my name on it.

So since I'm not ready to buy, give them a call and tell them the old guy who bought the Rail King bridge sent you. It's brand new for $720.00. The OLde Train $ Christmas Shoppe...610-369-0755 or 610-367-7757. They're great people with a great inventory and they ship. Email me and let me know how you made out.

Just in case some of you don't normally read Classic Trains magazine the new issue is dedicated primarily (over 30 pages) to the history of the GG1. Included is an article about the man who designed it, Donald Dohner.

Stuart

One thing that I just remembered that no one has done on any GG1 in any scale is the metal strips used to carry the stripes over the air intakes.

Stuart

quote:

Just in case some of you don't normally read Classic Trains magazine the new issue is dedicated primarily (over 30 pages) to the history of the GG1. Included is an article about the man who designed it, Donald Dohner.

I was also curious when I read this and immediately thought of this thread and the references to Lowey. Is there some sort of debate or ambiguity as to who's design was used for the GG1? The CT article clearly states it was Dohner, not Lowey.

I never had that much of an interest in the GG1, as they must of ran out of catenary at some point east of Pittsburgh ! Perhaps due to this thread and availability of 75th Anniversary press and photos circulating, they are starting to look very a-track-tive. This could be expensive , but good for the economy!

Stack

Raymond Loewy was responsible for the improvements to the original design of the GG1, but did not design the GG1.

The original GG1 came from Baldwin as road number 4899. At the same time a similar locomotive of a 4-8-4 wheel arrangement known as the R1 was built in Altoona and was numbered 4800.

Both locomotives were based on the modified P5a design. The original P5a was a boxcab and after a fatal grade crossing accident, the PRR modified the design to the steeple cab design.

This does come together eventually! All the of these locomotives shared very similar construction types - individually cut body panels that were riveted and strapped together. They very much had the feel of OLD with the plethora of rivets across the body.

To make a long story longer - the R1 and GG1 squared off at Claymont under very rigorous testing that included sensors in the track in addition to monitoring locomotive performance. In the performance category, the R1 and the GG1 were nearly a wash. The main difference came down to tracking and stress on the rails. The rigid framed R1 did not track as well as the GG1 and was very hard on the rails. Ultimately the GG1 was selected for mass production and received number 4800, while the R1 got number 4899.

Raymond Loewy was brought on board to suggest ideas for improvements to the design. In his own words, he explained that he didn't do much. However, what he did was dramatic. His contribution to the GG1 included a minor redesign of the shape of the body to make it more aerodynamic looking. He proposed welded body panels in lieu of the riveted ones. This was revolutionary for locomotive design at the time. He also designed the famous five gold stripes on DGLE paint scheme under the guise of making them 'more visible' to workers on the tracks. Finally, he redesigned the class light placment, removed all the externally mounted parts that he could and generally created a separate class of locomotive from the prototype 4800.

Goes to show that the devil is in the details.

The PRR, loath to throw anything away until it was used up, ran the R1 4899 (renumbered to 4999 in the 40's) until about 1960. It often pulled the Broadway Limited out of Harrisburg. It did have a penchant for throwing switches in Philly occasionaly, but it worked hard during it's life as the ugly step-child to the GG1. GG1 4800 of course had a very full life working up through Conrail.

I need to get this issue of CTS!

The article on the GG1's in the latest issue of 'Classic Trains' is truly fantastic.

I highly recommend this article to anyone interested in a unique engine which outlasted almost all others from the late 1930's early 1940's.

It was without question an extraordinary example of american railroad engineering at its very best!

I'll pick up a copy tonight.

While some may consider the article on Dohner to be somewhat slanted, it does contain some interesting tidbits. For example, the author notes that Dohner's designs (there were several of them) were difficult to manufacture with the riveting process and he suggests that the PRR may have already been considering a welded body. Also, the striped designs pre-date Loewy (on both the models created by Dohner and on Rivets iteslf).

The cut-away view by itself is worth the price of the magazine. Great issue.

Check out the Video Extras Box #2 "Pennsy GG1s in Action" online!

Classic Trains

At the risk of being shouted down by some members of this forum the late industrial designer Raymond Loewy was a genuine S.O.B. to his office staff and the designers that labored on his behalf in his firm with little or no credit for their individual work. Mr. Loewy took total credit for everything that originated from his design studio regardless of who did it or when it was done.

He constantly 'show-boated' his supposed involvement with many of the design projects and there where many instances when he wouldn't even allow members of the design team to be present in the conference room with the client. He feared that those actually responsible for the design would up-stage him in front of the client and his larger than life persona would suffer as a result.

Mr. Loewy was a real 'puffed-up' phony but he was a super salesman who could sell sand to the Arab Emirates. As to his actual involvement with the GG1 its hard to say exactly what his contribution was or was not. I suspect his real contribution was his 'guru-like' design reputation and the fact the PRR executives liked his 'performance' in their boardroom.

For all fans of the GG1 the Summer 2009 issue of Classic Trains will be a must buy. It has six articles about the GG1. Very interesting reading.

That information about Loewy does not necessarilly surprise me. It was much the same of all designers of that era. Big egos, larger than life self promotion, and a penchant for exageration.

Frank Lloyd Wright, Meis Van der Roe, Otto Kuhler, Henry Dryfess all shared that same attitude as it was the accepted and often expected norm of the day and era. The modern era had finally arrived and these strong willed individuals were among it's key promoters.

Wright practiced in the same manner. Talliesen was essentially a school of architecture meant for producing Wright's drawings. I suspect many of the tales of his last minute designs are along the same lines. It was relayed to me by one of the few women in the Frank Lloyd Wright architecture school that Mrs. Wright did most of the design work in the 50's since Wright was too busy lecturing and touring.

Having been in the same architecture design studio for my entire career, I can tell you that the public often associates design credit to the lead person as much as the head designer does for themself. Design is never a singular task as many would like to think. The efforts of the team often lead to recognition for the lead person on the project. Right or wrong, that is usually how it happens. In this day and age of professional seals and registrations, I am the copyright holder of every sheet of drawings I sign, whether I designed it or not.

Like anything else, the truth about Loewy is likely somewhere in the middle. I have no doubt that he had some influence over some design changes from the prototype to the production version. How much exactly? Who knows? History has commonly said what he was responsible for, but I do believe that history is not always what were are told it is.

An interesting discussion to be sure.

quote:

Originally posted by N&W 1218:

Check out the Video Extras Box #2 "Pennsy GG1s in Action" online!

Classic Trains

Great GG1 videos!!   Thanks!!

But.....     since when did a steamer   sound like a diesel ????         Interesting !!!

 

quote:

Originally posted by AlanH:
[Great GG1 videos!!   Thanks!!

But.....     since when did a steamer   sound like a diesel ????         Interesting !!!

 

Alan,

Surley you know that SP equipped the GS4 thru 6 northerns and the later cab forwards with air horns!

quote:

Originally posted by ChessieMan:

Alan,

Surley you know that SP equipped the GS4 thru 6 northerns and the later cab forwards with air horns!

Nope, I didn't.   I'm a Pennsy/Reading fan.

But that's why this forum ( and all the members that participate) is so valuable in repsonding to and answering almost any train related question that is asked!

Thanks !!                See....     you're never too old to learn something new about trains!
 
Umm...     the only SP locomotive I've seen in person is the 3751 Northern, and it has a "steam" whistle.
 

Back in December of 1992, I wrote a cover story for Classic Toy Trains 5th. Anniversary Edition on the Modern Era GG1’s. Yes that was 17 years ago, where did the time go? It’s great to see continuing interest in the GG1 a locomotive that lasted almost 50 years in revenue service.
Today I ride into New York’s Pennsylvania Station daily on NJ Transit Double Decker’s pulled by modern ALP-46’s and think back to what it must have been like in the glory days of the GG1. Yes the track, the tunnels and the platforms are still there. Secaucus Junction sits between the Portal Bridge and the Hudson River Tunnels, both 100 years old.
There is talk of another tunnel and two replacement bridges; the politicians will decide when that gets done. Now, despite a slow down in the economy of New York City, traffic into Pennsylvania Station from Long Island and New Jersey has far exceeded its design capability.
I look forward to reading the article in Classic Trains Magazine and enjoyed this thread and all the great nostalgia relating to the GG1. Best Jerry

Jonathan,

You are absolutely correct in pointing out that Mr. Loewy's attitude towards the talented people who worked for him in his design studio were quite similar, if not identical to, Frank Lloyd Wright, Henry Dreyfuss, and Normal Bell Geddes attitude about assigning credit to their staff in the 1940's, 50's and 60's. It was a vastly a different 'era' and people had to accept a highly restricted 'code' of conduct in the workplace and certainly didn't dare claim personal credit for their design work.

Times have changed for the better in the last 20 to 30 or so years with younger talent speaking up and rightfully taking credit for their work. Had Mr. Loewy tried to pull his grandstanding 'stunts' today regarding the GG1 and other work for the PRR the outcome might have been very different indeed. You're also right in reminding us that what we previously learned from history ain't necessarily so in light of additional information surfacing as time goes by.

Anyway, the articles on the GG1 in the current issue of 'Classic Trains' are a welcome addition to a more 'accurate' history of this great electric motor.

quote:

Alan,

Surley you know that SP equipped the GS4 thru 6 northerns and the later cab forwards with air horns!

As did the NYC with the Niagaras.

Forgive my ignorance, but what type and color passenger cars would the GG1 have pulled when it was first introduced to service in 1934/1935? Who models the cars?

Thanks, Jim

Thanks Jonathan. I assume the PRR cars were tuscan red. Was there any difference in the lettering typeface by era? If Pullman cars were included in the consist, would they have been in Pullman green?

I have gone through this thread about 5 times and just ordered a 4800 in the Futura lettering. I will wait confirmation from 3d Rail then start looking for cars. (If I understand correctly there will be 25 produced in each of 4 schemes. It seems the reservations should have been easily filled by now.) Considering I was more than pleased with the 3d Rail ESE Hudson and GGD ESE cars, I figured it was time to spend some more money.

The idea of some variety in the consist is very appealing. Thanks again. Pictures are always appreciated.

Jim

I finally got the Classic Trains issue everyone is talking about and while an excellent issue, I do have some problems with the Dohner article.

Anyone who has followed this locomotive for any length of time knows that Raymond Loewy did not design the GG1. Every published source I come across points that out and even in Loewy's own words, his contributions were minor. However those minor contributions were significant in terms of look and style. I really have a hard time believing that there was ever a conception prior to Loewy's look at the locomotive for it to be welded as all the other locomotives credited to Dohner were riveted design bodies. The genesis of many great ideas may have been there, but as in any enduring design exercise it's the coming together of the design that makes a good design an eternal one.

This is not meant to take anything away from the original design as it was a very good palatte to start with. I simply find it interesting that this is somehow a 'new' revelation. The article to me seemed to be more sensationalized than it really needed to be and the cover teaser really belonged more in the National Enquirer than on a respectible train magazine.

I don't want to take anything away from Dohner's contributions because they were critical to the design, but I find the article to be short on facts and long on speculation.

While the article was certainly an interesting contribution to the history of this fine locomotive, I honestly have a hard time revising the historical record on one magazine article based on a lot of speculation. Again the 4800 is a class unto it's own and distinct from the 138 cousins in many aspects.

There will be a letter to the editor from me ....

Great issue though and lots of great photos. Those PC era images with no less than 5 G's on a freight train were incredible and the shot of CR 4800 and Amtrak 4935 in the same frame was simply amazing. The alpha and omega of GG1 designs in one shot.