Southern Heavyweight passenger car question

Just out of curiosity, is this a re-release of the Carolina Special from 2006?

I have no idea on the Carolina special - they do look similar, except these had black roofs and appeared to be a darker green (That could be because of the darker roofs or photo quality). But Lionel took down the cars before I could investigate. 

There was a station sounds diner and some nice head end equipment to match

Gotcha.  They are probably making a set to match the new Black Crescent Limited PS4.

Sleeping cars with PULLMAN on the facia could be seen in just about any passenger train including the South Shore.  Conventions and major sporting events required more sleeping cars than normally were assigned to trains between cities so cars would be added from the Pullman pool. Case in point, when a California school played a football game at Notre Dame it would not be unusual for passengers to board a car in southern California, use that car for their accommodations in South Bend and return to California in that car.  John in Lansing, ILL

I’d imagine color of the cars in a Crescent Limited consist will depend on the particular time frame you are modeling.   Prior to WWII, most passenger equipment was dark green with a handful of exceptions such as PRR.  Too; given the Crescent was operated by four railroads - PRR, SOU, A&WP and L&N; you would have had both Pullman equipment as well as equipment lettered for the individual participant railroads in most Crescent consists.

Curt

"...given the Crescent was operated by four railroads - PRR, SOU, A&WP and L&N; you would have had both Pullman equipment as well as equipment lettered for the individual participant railroads in most Crescent consists."

Strangely, just this week, I ran across this ad for the original Crescent (the route later changed) in a May 1950 Trains magazine. Probably doesn't help, but here it is anyway:

(Later - not sure when; I should know, but I don't - the route was changed to all-Southern from Atlanta, so it became Atlanta-B'ham-Meridian-N.O. rather than Atlanta-Montgomery-Mobile-N.O. So the A&WP and L&N were no longer participating. For a SOU train, the original had precious little mileage on SOU trackage.)

lionel89 posted:
Gotcha. They are probably making a set to match the new Black Crescent Limited PS4.

Yes, as Ryan and David mentioned on their Facebook page this last week these cars are intended to match the 4-6-2 steam engines in the volume 1 catalog. The first Crescent Limited Steam Engines were painted black which only lasted about a year and then they were painted green. The cars at first were painted Pullman Green and probably lettered Southern until later they were re-lettered to Crescent Limited. I could not find exact information on lettering on the cars. However, the Pullman cars were all painted Pullman Green until about 4 years later when they were all delivered in 2 tone color green for the Crescent Limited. The Lionel Heavyweight cars for the Crescent Limited created in 2013 have the 2 tone color green representing the later years of service when the train was labeled as the Crescent Limited. Based upon the time frame, I doubt the Southern mixed the colors of the passanger cars unless it was during the transition of the color of the cars from the Pullman Green to the 2 tone color.

Here is link for more information on the History of the Crescent Limited Passanger Cars and Ps4 steam engines.

http://www.hosam.com/srr/clhist.html

KJSTRAINS,

Great information on the link - very helpful. So I have one last question.

So the cars Lionel did back in 2013 say "Crescent Limited" so they would represent the train from 1929 to about 1934 when the train was dropped. Then it says the train was started again and renamed the "Crescent" in 1938 and remained the "Crescent" until 1979.

So when it became the "Crescent" were the cars still two tone green until the lightweight equipment showed up in 1946 or were there a mix of Two tone green/Pullman green / black roof cars? Or all cars in a Pullman green/black roofs? Trying to understand the 1938 to 1946 era cars?

I realize you are searching for “definite” and what I am offering is pure speculation but; in the depths of the depression when coaches were added and the premium fare eliminated; it would have been logical for the heavyweight sleepers or diners to be in their previous two tone colors with the coaches being whatever normal color scheme prevailed on Southern passenger equipment.  And I’m gonna bet that was just a dark Pullman green.

But again; pure speculation.

Curt

D500 posted:

"...given the Crescent was operated by four railroads - PRR, SOU, A&WP and L&N; you would have had both Pullman equipment as well as equipment lettered for the individual participant railroads in most Crescent consists."

Strangely, just this week, I ran across this ad for the original Crescent (the route later changed) in a May 1950 Trains magazine. Probably doesn't help, but here it is anyway:

(Later - not sure when; I should know, but I don't - the route was changed to all-Southern from Atlanta, so it became Atlanta-B'ham-Meridian-N.O. rather than Atlanta-Montgomery-Mobile-N.O. So the A&WP and L&N were no longer participating. For a SOU train, the original had precious little mileage on SOU trackage.)

The "Crescent Limited" and "Crescent" were two different animals.  And yes the Pennsy pulled the Crescent Limited out of NY to DC were the "Southern Limited" Ps4's took over.

Ron

These are the 15588 heavyweights Lionel did in 2006 that Lionel89 mentioned above (also was a 2-car add-on, and (I think) a sound diner.

Sure wish Larry Neal would pop in here.  He knows this info from the top of his head.  He was the historian at the NCTM in Spencer.

The Souther Railway Historical Association"s "Ties" magazine covered much info in their March-April 1994, November-December 2010, and March-April 2011 issues.  Will quote some of that info here.

Southern's president Fairfax Harrison returned from a visit in England excited about the green trains he saw.

"The Crescent Limited was inaugurated April 26, 1925.  For the first fifteen months the Crescent Limited was pulled by black Ps4 locomotives.  In july 1926 the new green Ps4's began to arrive on the property and the Crescent Limited received new locomotives on July 25, 1926.  On October 21, 1929 three days before the Stock Market crash began, a brand-new Crescent Limited entered service.  The exterior of the cars were painted in two shades of green etc.  Ultimately succumbing to economics reasons June 30, 1934 spelled the death of the Crescent Limited."  This is a synopsis from the 2010 issue.

Now at least the two tone green cars were named for Southern Gentleman, names submitted by the then Governor's of Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana.  Five names each for the total of the 35-cars. 

From some of the images in the 2010 issue the cars were a single color with  "Crescent Limited" in small letters wit in the window band.  Now the Crescent Limited did pull mail form NYC to Atlanta.  I had presumed in standard Southern RPO cars.  But in some of the images in this 2010 issue 

it appears that even the RPO car is two tone.

Just a little of what I have gleamed form the "Ties."

Ron

The Southern Railway StationSounds heavyweight diner was Lionel 15596.  I believe the sounds were for the Carolina Special.  

Neal Jeter

Blue Streak posted:

KJSTRAINS,

Great information on the link - very helpful. So I have one last question.

So the cars Lionel did back in 2013 say "Crescent Limited" so they would represent the train from 1929 to about 1934 when the train was dropped. Then it says the train was started again and renamed the "Crescent" in 1938 and remained the "Crescent" until 1979.

So when it became the "Crescent" were the cars still two tone green until the lightweight equipment showed up in 1946 or were there a mix of Two tone green/Pullman green / black roof cars? Or all cars in a Pullman green/black roofs? Trying to understand the 1938 to 1946 era cars?

 

You may want to post your question about 1938 to 1946 era cars on the Southern Fans Thread. There are many followers on that thread that may be able to answer your question.  It is a good thread to follow about the Southern Railroad and also seeing photos of new Southern Railroad trains from Lionel, MTH, Atlas etc.   Here is the link...

https://ogrforum.com/...15#80551019706611215

The Southern cars shown in the photos could have been seen in the Crescent only between late 1948 and 1949, and not much then.  Pullman cars did not have railroad names on their letterboards until after they were sold to the railroads, mostly around 12/47-2/48.  They were relettered to the railroad names only as they pased through a shop, a process that took several years.  Steamlined cars for the Crescent were received betrwee 9/49 and 2/50.  That leaves less than two years that a HW sleeper could have appeared in the Crescent, so it is very unlidkely that any one run of the Crescent had mostly SOU lettered HW cars.

I noticed the discussion about a Lionel Carolina Special.  Did they make a big deal about that as if it was a special train ?  It was an ordinary train that carried a name and one s;leeper between Cincinnati and Charleston plus four sleepers on parts of it route (in 1930).  It is never shown in the Official Guide with an observation car.