And in fact the NKP #765 did also pull some of the Claytor brothers steam excursion runs.
Ron
Here's the MTH 2716 from 2006:
From me personally, a great big 'Thank you' guys for the many terrific photos and historical information. There is so much knowledge here on the forum that we are ALL fortunate to have access to. Lionelman, I had not seen No.2716 before, thanks for posting.
There is a Weaver brass 'Tennessean' on the bay ending about 7:30 tonight (Sun)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...geName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Again, THANKS a LOT everyone.
There is a Weaver brass 'Tennessean' on the bay ending about 7:30 tonight (Sun)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...geName=STRK:MEWAX:IT
Again, THANKS a LOT everyone.
It seems like I recall the photo of the real 2716 had the word Southern in large letters on the tender where the model has the road number. I hope I'm not incorrect about that however. The photo was b/w so I couldn't tell if the tender lettering was white or gold. But it looked white. The engine also looked like it just had a shiny black paint job.
I think the infra-red drawbar that Lionel used on my NKP 779 was more real railroad looking than the hookup on the MTH 2716 as shown here. That aside, the 2716 has I believe better under the cab detail that is missing from the Lionel model. The 779 is also missing a bit of main steam pipe detail that should run from the right side cylinder up thru the running board into the smokebox area. But I can't tell about that from the above photo on the MTH 2716. The 2716 boiler also appears to have quite a bit more taper to it.
Sam, you posted at the same moment I did. I must not type as fast though. But thanks for the info about the Tennessean. Somebody will no doubt jump right on that one. It's a HIGHLY desirable model. I may even try getting in on it myself. You can bet someone from here will. Let us know if one of you wins it..
I think the infra-red drawbar that Lionel used on my NKP 779 was more real railroad looking than the hookup on the MTH 2716 as shown here. That aside, the 2716 has I believe better under the cab detail that is missing from the Lionel model. The 779 is also missing a bit of main steam pipe detail that should run from the right side cylinder up thru the running board into the smokebox area. But I can't tell about that from the above photo on the MTH 2716. The 2716 boiler also appears to have quite a bit more taper to it.
Sam, you posted at the same moment I did. I must not type as fast though. But thanks for the info about the Tennessean. Somebody will no doubt jump right on that one. It's a HIGHLY desirable model. I may even try getting in on it myself. You can bet someone from here will. Let us know if one of you wins it..
Ginsaw:
The 2716 ran an excursion here in NW Alabama in May 1982. I took several photos of her and checked them. The MTH model is painted just like the photos I have. A big "2716" on the tender with the smaller "Southern" higher up on the tender near the cab.
Neal Jeter
The 2716 ran an excursion here in NW Alabama in May 1982. I took several photos of her and checked them. The MTH model is painted just like the photos I have. A big "2716" on the tender with the smaller "Southern" higher up on the tender near the cab.
Neal Jeter
I dug out an old calendar from 1988 with beautiful paintings by CA artist Michael F Kowtowski. He has a dozen handsome renderings like this of the various streamlined steamers like the 1380 pulling into Washington DC's Union Depot on a steamy August evening.
norfolk-southern o.c.s. train pulling into whitsettville at dusk...........rogerw.
Close-up of the Southern ticket office. When powered the round emblem blinks off and on.
Here is a good view of that 1380 Tennessean prototype (hopefully it's not already posted somewhere in the thread's 4 pages) - third pic down - http://condrenrails.com/MRP/Te...Tennessean-locos.htm
As for the ticket station, there's one still standing in Corinth, MS, we used to ride out of when I was a kid. You could buy tickets on the Southern or the GM&O. They had logos of both railroads on the station (still do I think). The station marked the crossing of those two lines, with the Southern being east-west and the GM&O being the north-south track. Both were mainlines. One's now obviously a very busy NS line and KCS, surprisingly I think, wound up with the other.
I've never seen a model station with the same floor layout, kind of Y shaped. If I could scratchbuild such a thing, I'd do it...
As for the ticket station, there's one still standing in Corinth, MS, we used to ride out of when I was a kid. You could buy tickets on the Southern or the GM&O. They had logos of both railroads on the station (still do I think). The station marked the crossing of those two lines, with the Southern being east-west and the GM&O being the north-south track. Both were mainlines. One's now obviously a very busy NS line and KCS, surprisingly I think, wound up with the other.
I've never seen a model station with the same floor layout, kind of Y shaped. If I could scratchbuild such a thing, I'd do it...
For those who might be interested there is a Southern Switch Tower up for sale on ebay. Item #360353870411. I am in no way connected to the auction.
Neal Jeter
Neal Jeter
lionlman i can't find the switch tower on ebay. where exactly is it located on ebay??...............rogerw.
lionlman and c. sam, i've already places a bid on it. hopefully i'll win it................rogerw.
Some close-up photos of the Weaver 1380.
Ginsaw,
None of the streamline cars where delivered in 60'
The only 60' foot on the Southern where baggage and RPO's
Just remember the railking cars for Semi scales while the Premier line is scale the cars are all in 72' in length. So far K-line had the correct length for there streamline cars and Goldengate Depot for there heavyweight cars. I have a set of Goldengate cars for my Lionel Southern Ps-4 I'm looking to add a Atlas Trainman 60' RPO and baggage to the consist.
None of the streamline cars where delivered in 60'
The only 60' foot on the Southern where baggage and RPO's
Just remember the railking cars for Semi scales while the Premier line is scale the cars are all in 72' in length. So far K-line had the correct length for there streamline cars and Goldengate Depot for there heavyweight cars. I have a set of Goldengate cars for my Lionel Southern Ps-4 I'm looking to add a Atlas Trainman 60' RPO and baggage to the consist.
Thx Sean. I was thinking about them as a substitute for, or to supplement my Lionel aluminum Tennessean streamliner cars in 60' - 15". I like the car names on them, but they're that old, old '50s design and, you know, are rather toy-like or cheesy, if that's the right word. And being aluminum instead of plastic, they are rather noisy at high speed. The sound kinda reverberates around in them if you know what I mean.
What for me would be ideal is 70' (18") streamliner cars marked for the Tennessean. I can't use the 21". The 18" is the biggest I can use and they also would match my Lionel Crescent heavyweights. I want to standardize in other words on the car length. Doing that and finding them in Tennessean names seems impossible.
It's a need I wish one of the importers would fill...
What for me would be ideal is 70' (18") streamliner cars marked for the Tennessean. I can't use the 21". The 18" is the biggest I can use and they also would match my Lionel Crescent heavyweights. I want to standardize in other words on the car length. Doing that and finding them in Tennessean names seems impossible.
It's a need I wish one of the importers would fill...
ginsaw, if you'll check mth's 2007 volume one catalog on page 164, you'll find a the bottom of the page southern premier streamlined ribbed passenger cars. i brought the whole series of passenger cars. i've done some research on these cars (thanks to dewey and sean) and these cars are labeled for the "tennessean" and "southern crescent" passenger trains. on the back of the "louisiana" observation car is an "tennessean" drumhead. also the E-6 aba diesel engine set has psa for the "tennessean". you can find the E-6 aba set and 5-car passenger set at the train loft in winston-salem north carolina. the train loft may have the two 2-car sets, vista, and RPO mail passenger/mail car.
here are the names on the passenger cars:
sweetwater
louisiana
alexandria
york river
elizabeth city
huntsville
greenville
sheffield
decatur
north carolina
grand junction....................rogerw.
here are the names on the passenger cars:
sweetwater
louisiana
alexandria
york river
elizabeth city
huntsville
greenville
sheffield
decatur
north carolina
grand junction....................rogerw.
Roger, can you post any pics of those?
I don't know about buying the E-6s with them. I already have the Atlas F-3s and Lionel's original PW F-3 ABA 2356 set.
On those car names, the "Grand Junction" is from an historic small rural town near me and was a well known cross roads going back to Civil War times. It's where the Southern crossed the IC. The Grand Junction is the baggage car on the Lionel set. The other names you mentioned are not among those on the Lionel's Tennessean. One's that are - Roanoke, Charlottesville, Chattanooga, Johnson City and obs car Memphis. The last is interesting because Lionel's orange/brown MPC IC CNO passenger set also has the Memphis as the obs car.
Two cars of the same type with the same name on two different roads is quite a fluke.
The Sheffield and Decatur MTH cars are named for north Alabama Southern Railway towns and not that far east from Grand Junction on the Southern ex-Memphis & Charleston mainline. They were well known stops for the Tennessean.
I don't know about buying the E-6s with them. I already have the Atlas F-3s and Lionel's original PW F-3 ABA 2356 set.
On those car names, the "Grand Junction" is from an historic small rural town near me and was a well known cross roads going back to Civil War times. It's where the Southern crossed the IC. The Grand Junction is the baggage car on the Lionel set. The other names you mentioned are not among those on the Lionel's Tennessean. One's that are - Roanoke, Charlottesville, Chattanooga, Johnson City and obs car Memphis. The last is interesting because Lionel's orange/brown MPC IC CNO passenger set also has the Memphis as the obs car.
Two cars of the same type with the same name on two different roads is quite a fluke.
The Sheffield and Decatur MTH cars are named for north Alabama Southern Railway towns and not that far east from Grand Junction on the Southern ex-Memphis & Charleston mainline. They were well known stops for the Tennessean.
ginsaw, here are the pictures you requested. the picture of the drumhead on the back of the observation car isn't very good............rogerw.
I like those and will maybe look into it. Thx.
The Lionel cars have black roofs. I don't know which way is correct however. In any event, the MTH cars (which I assume are 18" 70') appear significantly better.
Of course, if they wanted a Tennessean that's prototypical of what I recall riding on in the mid '50s, the only way to re-produce that would be with a real varied mix of cars of different styles and eras and even some from other railroads. Because that's what it was.
I also never saw a dome car, although that doesn't mean Southern didn't use them elsewhere.
The Lionel cars have black roofs. I don't know which way is correct however. In any event, the MTH cars (which I assume are 18" 70') appear significantly better.
Of course, if they wanted a Tennessean that's prototypical of what I recall riding on in the mid '50s, the only way to re-produce that would be with a real varied mix of cars of different styles and eras and even some from other railroads. Because that's what it was.
I also never saw a dome car, although that doesn't mean Southern didn't use them elsewhere.
Ginsaw,
I have the same passengers cars that roger posted I didn't buy the full vista dome because the Southern never had any on their roster.
The MTH cars are done in the as delivered scheme for the Tennessean. The Southern started to repaint the roofs black in the early 60's. K-line by Lionel had a set of Southern passengers in the 2009 catalog but sadly they where canceled due to low orders. I was looking to getting them to pair up with my 4 Southern E-8's now I'll have to wait or paint the roof black on some of my other Southern Passengers.
I have the same passengers cars that roger posted I didn't buy the full vista dome because the Southern never had any on their roster.
The MTH cars are done in the as delivered scheme for the Tennessean. The Southern started to repaint the roofs black in the early 60's. K-line by Lionel had a set of Southern passengers in the 2009 catalog but sadly they where canceled due to low orders. I was looking to getting them to pair up with my 4 Southern E-8's now I'll have to wait or paint the roof black on some of my other Southern Passengers.
ginsaw, sean is right! the southern never had any vista dome cars. i just brought that car because it had "southern" on it! also all of those passenger cars are 18" mth-premier passenger cars. also i'm waiting for mth to make another run of southern passenger cars, but this time make them with the black roofs and the southern railroad emblem on the sides of the passenger car near the door.............rogerw.
The Southern never purchased any dome cars but inherited two from the Central of Georgia when Southern bought the C of Ga. The Southern cars numbers are 1602 and 1613. I took an MTH UP dome car and repainted for one of the inherited Southern dome cars. The dome cars ran on the Southern Crescent. I believe they were pulled off the Crescent at Atlanta since the run north was at night from Atlanta arriving in Washington, DC the next morning. The southbound Crescent would pick up the dome on its way south since the run was in daytime. If I am wrong someone please correct me.
Why did they paint the roofs black?
On another railroad, the Cotton Belt, they re-painted black roofs on Alco PAs silver to make the engines run cooler. That actually happened.
I thought seriously about ordering those K-Line cars. One reason I didn't was because I didn't like those flexible fenders or whatever intended for tight radius curves. But I see now I didn't miss out since they weren't built anyway. However, K-Line did make some nice aluminum streamliner cars. The IC version I would probably buy if a set shows up.
On another railroad, the Cotton Belt, they re-painted black roofs on Alco PAs silver to make the engines run cooler. That actually happened.
I thought seriously about ordering those K-Line cars. One reason I didn't was because I didn't like those flexible fenders or whatever intended for tight radius curves. But I see now I didn't miss out since they weren't built anyway. However, K-Line did make some nice aluminum streamliner cars. The IC version I would probably buy if a set shows up.
quote:Originally posted by Lionlman:
The Southern never purchased any dome cars but inherited two from the Central of Georgia when Southern bought the C of Ga. The Southern cars numbers are 1602 and 1613. I took an MTH UP dome car and repainted for one of the inherited Southern dome cars. The dome cars ran on the Southern Crescent. I believe they were pulled off the Crescent at Atlanta since the run north was at night from Atlanta arriving in Washington, DC the next morning. The southbound Crescent would pick up the dome on its way south since the run was in daytime. If I am wrong someone please correct me.
One of the main uses for the ex CofG vista domes was the Asheville Special train between Salisbury and Asheville. This train used one of the two domes until the train was annulled in 1975, I think.
MTH made a good model of the 1613 last year as part of a 5 car set.
The Southern had 3 observation car named "Louisiana"
It very possible that one of these where used on the Tennessean while Ps-4 # 1380 was in change of the train but yes the Tennessean did have a heavyweight blunt end observation in the consist.
It very possible that one of these where used on the Tennessean while Ps-4 # 1380 was in change of the train but yes the Tennessean did have a heavyweight blunt end observation in the consist.
lima, yes the drumhead says "the tennessean". i could'nt get the crisp shot of the drumhead that i wanted.........rogerw.
ginsaw, i've looked on the internet as to why the southern painted the roofs of the cars black, and the only answer i found was the southern painted them black to lower maintenance costs for the railroad. the tops of the cars were filthy and the southern didn't want to keep washing the passenger cars all the time. also with the roofs painted black, it was a chore to keep the cars cool in the summer and keep them warm in the winter because of the roofs being black. here is a link where i found some of my information.............rogerw.
http://www.trainorders.com/dis...n/read.php?4,2399759
http://www.trainorders.com/dis...n/read.php?4,2399759
Seems like a lot of trouble just to have dirt not show on the tops of cars, where it wouldn't be much noticed anyway.
On the Southern they said it cooled 5% better in the Summer to have silver roofs. For comparison, I recall on those Cotton Belt engines, the prime movers were actually shutting down in hot weather until they re-painted the tops silver.
Anyway, it just goes to show, there was an answer out there to such an obscure question. It appears there's nothing on railroads or anything else that hasn't already been discussed on the internet.
Btw, in the '50s I got to see the Southern's Tennessean and its F unit engines up close, and I distinctly remember the nose of the lead unit being so dirty you literally couldn't tell what color it was supposed to be. As a little kid already familiar with Lionel's #2356 I was looking to compare it.
I also distinctly remember one streamliner car had "Seaboard" on it and others had men's names I didn't recognize. A relative said they probably were people who had worked for the railroad.
But maybe the black roofs with their extra 5% load was why the A/C kept breaking down when we rode in the Summer...
On the Southern they said it cooled 5% better in the Summer to have silver roofs. For comparison, I recall on those Cotton Belt engines, the prime movers were actually shutting down in hot weather until they re-painted the tops silver.
Anyway, it just goes to show, there was an answer out there to such an obscure question. It appears there's nothing on railroads or anything else that hasn't already been discussed on the internet.
Btw, in the '50s I got to see the Southern's Tennessean and its F unit engines up close, and I distinctly remember the nose of the lead unit being so dirty you literally couldn't tell what color it was supposed to be. As a little kid already familiar with Lionel's #2356 I was looking to compare it.
I also distinctly remember one streamliner car had "Seaboard" on it and others had men's names I didn't recognize. A relative said they probably were people who had worked for the railroad.
But maybe the black roofs with their extra 5% load was why the A/C kept breaking down when we rode in the Summer...
larry, i have a video showing the last run of the "asheville special". the video has two E-8's on the point and various passenger cars, vista dome and a observation car (like the louisiana observation car pictured). the name of the observation car escapes me but it wasn't the "louisiana" observation car.............rogerw.
Regarding the Tennessean passenger cars and car names, here's the rundown - http://condrenrails.com/MRP/Te...essean-equipment.htm. Nice prototype car photos here too. You can compare these to the MTH set.
The 56 seat chair car #807 "Buntyn" to my knowledge has never been done in O Gauge (HO is harder to say, but I doubt it). If you knew the significance of that name on the Southern, you'd rate a Ph.D. in SR trivia because hardly anyone else knows. But I'll let you in on it.
It's named for Buntyn, TN, an old, old part of Memphis adjoining Southern's Forrest Yard (as in Bedford Forrest, "The Wizard Of The Saddle"). There used to be a platform station also bearing the Buntyn name. We rode out of and to there long, long ago. It was more convenient than the big downtown Union Station, that Southern shared with Cotton Belt, Missouri Pacific, L&N and NC&SL.
Buntyn Station, the passenger car and town were named for Geraldus Buntyn.
He was my great, great, grandfather.
And as a child, we lived across the street from that station. The street, not surprisingly, was and is called Southern Avenue. The yard still bears Forrest's name, but is no longer a busy Southern classification yard. It is a just as busy component now of the NS.
Anyways, the other Tennessean passenger car names shown on that link are a lot more recognizable...
The 56 seat chair car #807 "Buntyn" to my knowledge has never been done in O Gauge (HO is harder to say, but I doubt it). If you knew the significance of that name on the Southern, you'd rate a Ph.D. in SR trivia because hardly anyone else knows. But I'll let you in on it.
It's named for Buntyn, TN, an old, old part of Memphis adjoining Southern's Forrest Yard (as in Bedford Forrest, "The Wizard Of The Saddle"). There used to be a platform station also bearing the Buntyn name. We rode out of and to there long, long ago. It was more convenient than the big downtown Union Station, that Southern shared with Cotton Belt, Missouri Pacific, L&N and NC&SL.
Buntyn Station, the passenger car and town were named for Geraldus Buntyn.
He was my great, great, grandfather.
And as a child, we lived across the street from that station. The street, not surprisingly, was and is called Southern Avenue. The yard still bears Forrest's name, but is no longer a busy Southern classification yard. It is a just as busy component now of the NS.
Anyways, the other Tennessean passenger car names shown on that link are a lot more recognizable...
Weaver did Buntyn in "O" scale during the mid '90s. It was/is in a five "Silver Car" Pullman set issued when I bought the Weaver Southern E-8s. It included the Decatur Baggage and I believe the Huntsville and Washington--I don't recall the other car name. Cars all had window silouettes instead of model folks.
Will check upstairs later.
5th car in the Weaver set is "Charlottesville"
Will check upstairs later.
5th car in the Weaver set is "Charlottesville"
The detail on the RPO "Grand Junction" prototype pic looks quite a bit different to me from the MTH version. And it looks like the prototype obs car was the "Memphis". I didn't see the "Louisiana" listed in the link for the Tennessean.
Be sure to check out the car assignments found there too.
Btw, they had two of what appeared to be advertising drawings of obs cars. One was pointed, not blunt, and the other was blunt with a door at the end just like the prototype photo of the #1150 "Washington". But the drawing numbers weren't too legible. Those may of course just have been marketing dept devices..
Anyhow, Dewey, were the Weavers full scale length? If 21" I unfortunately couldn't have used them.
Be sure to check out the car assignments found there too.
Btw, they had two of what appeared to be advertising drawings of obs cars. One was pointed, not blunt, and the other was blunt with a door at the end just like the prototype photo of the #1150 "Washington". But the drawing numbers weren't too legible. Those may of course just have been marketing dept devices..
Anyhow, Dewey, were the Weavers full scale length? If 21" I unfortunately couldn't have used them.
Weaver Cars are 72'/18" long.
ginsaw, i think that mth uses the same passenger car molds for all of their passenger sets. i think mth passenger cars are modeled after the santa fe railroad passenger cars.........rogerw.
The Tennessean blunt end observations were "Memphis", "Knoxville", and "Washington". They had blunt ends so that sleeper cars could be added to the consist. They Southern had some heavyweight sleepers painted silver and then shadow-lined to match the other cars of the Tennessean.
Neal Jeter
Neal Jeter
Dewey, how do your Weavers compare with the prototype photos in the above link? Did they get the obs car "Washington" right?
Weaver's usually pretty good on prototype detail. They did several years ago a set of Pullman-Bradley cars for the Cotton Belt. That's a road that nobody does passenger cars for, and since it's another favorite of mine with still more personal connections, I wanted them. Unfortunately, they were too long for my layout.
Weaver's usually pretty good on prototype detail. They did several years ago a set of Pullman-Bradley cars for the Cotton Belt. That's a road that nobody does passenger cars for, and since it's another favorite of mine with still more personal connections, I wanted them. Unfortunately, they were too long for my layout.
In 1999 I purchased a set of scale length Tennessean cars from Railroad Collectibles. It came with the blunt end "Memphis". The cars do not have any interiors and are lighted.
This is an HO scale heavyweight painted silver and shadowlined to match the Tennessean cars.
This is an HO scale heavyweight painted silver and shadowlined to match the Tennessean cars.
MTH released a 5 car and 2 car add on passenger set of Southern 72" aluminum car in 1995 to go with the newly released Southern Weaver Ps-4 #1380. This set also has a boat tail observation car "Louisiana" with "The Tennessean" drumhead on the rear. I also have this set in my collection. It's possible that someone could use a K-line business car and modify it to be used as the correct observation car or we can sit and wait for someone in O scale to made the car.
Here is my contribution:
Very nice Tagginbac.
Sean, which K-Line business car are you referring to? The only K-L business car I ever saw was the Anheuser-Busch and I still think even today it was the best looking O Gauge passenger car I've ever seen. I would have bought it, but couldn't figure out what kind of train it'd go with. It probably would have been a pretty good display item by itself...
Sean, which K-Line business car are you referring to? The only K-L business car I ever saw was the Anheuser-Busch and I still think even today it was the best looking O Gauge passenger car I've ever seen. I would have bought it, but couldn't figure out what kind of train it'd go with. It probably would have been a pretty good display item by itself...
