TCA Dues to increase - Your thoughts

This devoted member is only asking for accountability from our leadership. In an earlier post here I asked for someone to tell me what we will do without as members if dues are not increased. So far I have only been told that I should not complain, it’s only a few dollars and everything will be ok.

Keep in mind that the leadership is elected, not appointed.  And we, as members, are the folks who elect these leaders.  Presumably, we elect those we trust and who we feel will best serve the interests of the organization.  Works this way with all groups of this type.

Officers and boards of officers are elected to make decisions about the governance and normal operations of the organization.  They do not owe us detailed explanations for every decision that the duly elected and duly constituted board decides to make.

Naturally, there will always be those who feel the need to second-guess these decisions.  That is why there is the opportunity to elect new officers on a regular basis, and the opportunity for any member to run for office and to serve.

Allan,

I always enjoy reading your response to the post here and on the main OGR forum. Most of the time I am amazed and indeed fascinated by the puzzling remarks you make such as the one in your last post that just showed up on page 3 of this thread:

“As I've mentioned several times in this thread, it's perfectly okay to not renew your membership.  No need to justify anything or to explain yourself.  Most of the participants on this forum won't even know whether you did or did not renew, and even fewer will care the least bit. “

Comments like this do not lend themself to the debate at hand.

Your thoughts regarding our elected leadership are troubling to me. We elect our leadership and they are accountable to the membership during the course of their term. They are Leaders, and not Kings. It sounds as if you believe the TCA BOD has a divine right to rule and therefore cannot make a wrong decision.

The email sent out by the BOD does not justify this increase in dues. There is no mention of the sky falling if dues are not increased.

At least our elected officials in the real world will tell us that without a tax increase the streets will cave in, crime will run rampant, building will burn and the street lights will go out!

Thanks,

Richard

Believe me, your elected officials in the "real world" are probably far less trustworthy or honest than the long-term, involved, and dedicated TCA members who are elected to office and board membership in that organization.

Come to think of it, I wonder how many of the complainers here actually voted in the last (or any) TCA election?  I know the percentage of voting members overall is always very low, which is typical with most organizations of this type, so I assume that statistic also applies to TCA members who are participants on this forum.  

Next time around, take a good look at the backgrounds and qualifications of those running for office.  Most have made significant achievements in their "real worlds" as well as in their long-term involvement in, and service to, the TCA.  If you can't place faith and trust in those folks, I don't know who you might suggest as alternatives.

We're talking $15 a year here, folks!  Time for a reality check!  

Members are well within their rights to ask questions. I don't see how anybody can suggest otherwise. How are we to know whether our elected officials are doing a good job, and steering the organization in the direction we wish to proceed?

According to the TCA's own documentation:

quote:

Section 5533 of the Pennsylvania Non-Profit Corporation Law requires that the Board of Directors present annually to the members a report showing in appropriate detail the following:
Assets and Liabilities on June 30, 2012
Revenue for preceding fiscal year
Principal changes in assets and liabilities
Number of members (06/06/13)

And are you asserting they don't provide this information, C.W.?

I believe they also have an independent audit done on an annual basis.

Get your rear end into gear and run for office, C.W.  Then you can assure the rest of us poor, uninformed outsiders that things are being handled properly and that everything is on the up-and-up.  I'll even give you my vote.

I was merely pointing out that members are well within their rights to politely ask questions. You seem to think we should vote for someone (based on what?) and then be happy with whatever they decide to do, and never question anything.

I notice you often post your ideas on what the TCA should be doing. What are position are you running for?

I don't consider myself qualified to hold a position of leadership in the TCA, C.W.  There are many members I know personally who work diligently to promote the organization and who have long histories of involvement at the local, division, or national level.  They have "paid their dues" in more ways than one; I haven't, aside from writing an article or two for The Quarterly in the past (and I hope to do more in that regard once I retire from active duty with OGR).

I'm not unhappy with the way the TCA is being run now because I've served on various volunteer boards for non-profits in the past and am well aware of the many difficult challenges.

We can express diverse points...that's cool...but if we do, we are fussing and whining???  YOUR words Allan!!!  We do not have the right to line-item accountability because WHY??? There have been TWO major wastes of money in the past decade, and I don't think it is necessary for me to regurgitate them here!!!  So, YES I may question an increase. Bottom line, I need to keep my membership for Conventions, so I am not jumping ship.  Besides, I am kinda hung up on belonging to TCA for 40 years.  I really am proud of this, and I am not gonna pull the plug over a "measley" $15.  In fact, I may have ruffled Mr.Edgar's feathers a bit through a prior post questioning management of funds, but I am going to make good on my prior promise to him to VOLUNTEER at the Museum if he allows me.  However, I am afraid some will get "weeded out"with this increase, regardless if merited or not.   And that will only FUEL the often-expressed opinions on this forum that we TCAers are ELITISTS.  This is not a good message.  Respectfully, can you please refrain from the WHINING and COMPLAINING comments?  These adjectives are not necessary to express your point-of-view.  I mostly agree with some of your points, but it's kind of insulting when you play that card.  I know this is your sandbox, but I don't view you in that light.  I think we both REVERE our Tca.  Anyway, that's it for me.  I said what has been on my chest...anything more on my part would just be overkill.  Thanks for allowing me the space...Ron B.

The decrease in  membership will probably be in obedience to the price-demand

elasticity curve (law).

Al W.

Ron,

Any help that you can provide to the museum will be appreciated.  It is not up to me to decide who may volunteer.  I have no say in the matter.  You need to contact Melody Rogers at the museum.  She along with Frank Rowan(chairman) run the Education and Museum Committee. They usually work only on Saturday's and I am sure that they can use your help.  Thanks for volunteering this is how things get done.  Believe me it will be an education for you and more importantly, FUN!!.

Paul Edgar

Past President

 I went back and re read the letter from the TCA on the other thread. I had forgotten about the $62.89 worth of benifits I will receive in the FY 13-14 budget year. I renewed  my TCA membership back in June of this year at the old rate. I guess I need to stop moaning and groaning, at least this year. I am getting a deal!

$62.89? Come on BOD. I guess by using that number and a colorful pie chart you can just about justify any amount of increase in our dues. In using this argument why not just increase the dues to an even $65. That would give you a $2.11 margin on each membership. If we have 26K in membership, you are looking at almost $55K in profit. 

Once again, what will we do without if the dues remain at the current rate? 

It seemed from reading at least part of it was proactive planning for future maintenance of facilities(things in the plan that will need to be done in a few years and then repeated ~ 15 years in the future, if I recall). Apparently this was not done at all in the past.

The drawn out process (not likely by any fault of the TCA, the updates on the challenges encountered seemed reasonable as we were given updates) for updating the restroom facilities in the building is a big example of one that was an "oh $#@!".  (I was actually surprised to see such a low number in the pie chart for the loan that is left over from that project)  That one is hopefully a nightmare entirely in the past now (less the bit of repayment left for the loan)

But it seems a lot of folks want to sell the building, have the entire TCA run out of a post office box, cut all publications and do it all with one person so they can go to York twice a year for only $35 over the cost of meet admission.  Heck, all they get out of it is going to York, so to heck with any other members who actually benefit from the other things (at least that's the attitude I sense when reading a lot of these posts - since the main focus for a large group is going to York, and that's not part of the pie for the actual TCA membership dues, it's easy to chip away at things others may enjoy to try to save a buck, but it's not possible to chip away at what they enjoy to save the buck - funny how that works). 

The NHN actually already cut back at least one or 2 issues a few years ago if I recall, BTW.  They also will no longer take the more costly mail in forms for the buy/sell from members who have registered with an email address, which was not an unfair way to cut costs there(presumably there is little or no human intervention required for emailed listings compared to mailed in listings)

-Dave

You have hit the nail squarely on its proverbial head, Dave!  

I think most people don't mind paying extra, they just want to make sure that the dues are being spent wisely. 

Criticizing those who want this is not a smart move.  Is it a bad thing that folks hard earned money not be wasted?

For years, all I hear is membership is literally dying off and we have to get new members.  I don't think we need more "devoted" members, just members (preferably younger) that will appreciate and keep the hobby alive.  I also constantly hear we need to do a better job promoting the hobby from everywhere.  $35 or $50 makes no difference to me either way, but to some people on fixed income everything adds up.

If the TCA needs more income, they can increase dues and try to make it up that way.  They may lose some members, but hopefully not enough to counter the $15 increase per member.

The other way, as I stated before, is lower the dues, and bring in more new people, and keep the people that are "on the fence".  I think this would would be more attractive to people on fixed income and help bring in younger members.  This won't work by itself without the heavily recruiting more members.

The good news is the TCA is doing what it thinks it needs to do to thrive going forward.

Every time I get a new TCA magazine I see where hundreds of members have made cash donations. Isn't that making up for short funds? They cannot make it with those?

Rob

There is a lot of talk about that the increase is OK for some while others say to keep it as is or even lower.

What everyone doesn't know is what all the committed outgoings are that the TCA has to face. If we knew that total outgoing budget and then divide it by the current membership you will then have a starting point for what it costs to service each membership.

If this baseline figure is above the current $35 then that is what the membership has to be as a minimum, add a bit more for inflation of postage, printing and other misc. stuff along with any new potential projects and that is what you have to charge. If people feel that the cost has to be below that baseline figure then the TCA will be in deficit within a year and likley to fold if it continues with those figures.

MartyE,

Thanks for your timely comments. I was beginning to worry that anyone questioning this dues increase would soon be subjected to Tar and Feathering.

Allan,

I have not questioned the integrity or dedication of the BOD. I just really believe that the dues increase is excessive. I question the justification presented to the membership.  Sometimes your response to the point of view of those who do not agree with you come across in a peculiar manner. $15 is not a lot of money, but it is real money to me and many others.

UKaflyer,

If the projects that the BOD are forecasting for the out years exceed revenue causing a deficit, then expenses must be cut before asking the membership for more revenue.

Pmilazzo,

You make great points. I am very concerned about the "Graying" of the TCA. I am one the gray ones. Reduced dues may be the answer to our future as an organization and the need to develop the leadership necessary for the survival of the TCA.

$35 is less than half of $100 and does not really get your attention.  $50 is half of $100, and it sticks out like a sore thumb. Will we need to go to $60 in the next physical year?

Thanks,

Richard

If as many members drop out because of the increase as they have forecasted, that figure of $60.00 per year will come sooner than you think. When I saw what they were spending for a new computer for the museum I laughed. Working in IT for the last 29 years I hardly think they needed to spend half as much to get a new system. How many members really use that old antique library anyway? To look up what? An old issue of model railroader?

"The good news is the TCA is doing what it thinks it needs to do to thrive going forward"

Then get rid of the cell phone rule, the no camera/no photos rule and open the York meet on Saturday to the public. So the sellers would have to collect (or pay themselves) sales tax for one day, so what. They'd probably rather do that then take the items home with them. Let them end the "old boys club" mentality that seems to keep them stuck in the mud, and really start making changes to keep the club in the black financially.

If necessary, I don't see why not.  NMRA annual dues are $66, and have been for a while, and I sure don't see or read about members complaining like some folks here do.

And, yes, Richard, you most certainly are questioning the integrity of the TCA's elected board.  I don't see how your comments could be taken otherwise.  Your "...need to develop the leadership necessary for the survival of the TCA" most definitely implies that such leadership is not currently in place and working in the best interests of the entire membership.

But one thing's certain:  You're not at all likely to see reduced dues.  That would accomplish absolutely nothing.

"Will we need to go to $60 in the next physical year?"

"If necessary, I don't see why not.  NMRA annual dues are $66, and have been for a while, and I sure don't see or read about members complaining like some folks here do."

 I know NMRA has much more to offer and comparing one assocation with another is like comparing apples to oranges.

 You must have deep pockets as you will pay any amount no matter how high the dues.

 Your views are very slanted to say the least as OGR might be affected by TCA? Is that in your thoughts?

 I'm done here as it seems like most folks have posted, some against rate hikes and the rest are okay to some degree to a point.

I've said my bit and surely you have mentioned your thoughts many times so, the end.

Best wishes for all, TOF .....

Actually, I think it's a fairly valid comparison.

The TCA and NMRA are the only two national train organizations with a significant infrastructure (building, museum, library, etc.).

The NMRA has a monthly magazine, but in just about all other respects the member benefits are similar (and there is no equivalent to the York Meet).

My own pockets today are considerably less deep than they were a few years ago, and certainly less deep than the pockets of many here.  I have to maintain a budget like most everyone else these days, but I will admit that living solo makes things easier, as does the reality of not having to worry about saving money for raising a family or putting kids through college.  I spend what is certainly an inordinate amount on trains, but I also spend far less than many or most on dining out; attending sports events, concerts, and movies; or purchasing other non-necessities.

OGR is not affected in the least by the TCA, aside from me personally believing in the role and mission of the organization.  We get zero ad revenue from the TCA, so there's really nothing gained or lost in that respect.  I do give TCA special events coverage in the magazine when I feel it is warranted and when the necessary material is available.  We participate as a dealer at York and some other shows or meets, but pay our way like any other dealer or manufacturer.

Bottom line is I feel that the TCA is an important presence in the hobby, and deserving of my personal support if/when I can give such support.  It is the umbrella organization for the toy train segment of the hobby, and without it the hobby would, in my opinion, be significantly diminished.

quote:

Then get rid of the cell phone rule, the no camera/no photos rule and open the York meet on Saturday to the public. So the sellers would have to collect (or pay themselves) sales tax for one day, so what. They'd probably rather do that then take the items home with them. Let them end the "old boys club" mentality that seems to keep them stuck in the mud, and really start making changes to keep the club in the black financially.

You are confusing the Eastern Division with the National TCA. The Eastern Division owns and runs the York train show, not the National TCA.

Yep, Robert, as C.W. noted, you have the wrong organization there. 

Allan,

 I am sorry you feel as if I am questing the integrity of BOD, I am not. They made their decision based on what they thought was in the best interest of the TCA and its future. As a member I am simply voicing my concerns about the reasons for and the impact of this increase in dues. I am not going anywhere, and if the good lord is willing, and the creeks don’t rise, I will be around here next year to pay my $50 TCA dues.

If a 10% drop in membership is anticipated then yes I am concerned about the pool of available members who will be willing to take on the leadership of the TCA in the future.

Well, enough of this for now. It's time to head off for a Casey Jones Hi Railers meeting. We are starting to plan the month long exhibit in October of our modular layout at the Memphis Pink Palace Museum. Then it is back to the house and yard work. I may even get around to spending a little quality time with my trains!

Hoping everyone has a fun, safe and relaxing weekend.

Richard

Have fun at the club meeting, Richard!  You and your fellow members are obviously doing your part to help expose new folks to this great hobby and all that it offers.

Be sure to send me some photos of that October exhibit.  Might be able to publish one or more and help feed the club's coffers.

quote:

So the sellers would have to collect (or pay themselves) sales tax for one day, so what. They'd probably rather do that then take the items home with them.

The issue for many table holders would be the record keeping / paperwork. A lot of causal sellers would simply drop out.

I know that many of the folks participating on the OGRR board are primarily interested in the dealer halls, so they would not be affected. But there are still many who go to York for the member halls. 

I have nothing against dealers, and do visit all the halls, but I doubt I would go to the effort to attend York if the show was all dealers.

Robert,

You are assuming that the PA Dept of Revenue would agree to a one day sales tax arrangement to open the meet to the public.

From the recent article in the Train Collectors Quarterly, I would think that the entire agreement to keep the member halls tax-free is based on keeping the meet open to TCA members only and closed to the public.

I feel very confident that this entire subject has been well addressed by Eastern Division and that the meet will never be opened to the public.

I will continue the membership because I like to attend York, and once in a while visit the museum. If I did not live close (Harrisburg,PA) I would not be a TCA member. Not because of the TCA, but because it would not provide anything I was interested in.

(C.W. said) 

"You are confusing the Eastern Division with the National TCA. The Eastern Division owns and runs the York train show, not the National TCA."

So then, from what you are saying, the Eastern Div. makes the cell phone and no camera rule, correct? Then with so many of their members objecting to this, are they really listening to their members they are asking to pay more dues?

Allan, I remember when the local TCA shows were about to go down the tubes, when they finally opened up the meets to the public after the first hour. If they hadn't the train shows would not have survived. So they changed with the times. Gee, what a novel idea. Just think of the additional revenue THAT would bring in from York!

Why, there might not even be a reason to raise the dues!

As far as going to the York show; if you live locally or have all your expenses paid for, sure, it's great going to York! And I wouldn't expect you to say anything less.

The EDTCA does control the York show and it's rules.

The phone rule is gone.  They listened.

The camera rule maybe next.  If the EDTCA members vote on these things they'll be changed.

And it's National TCA raising the dues.

So then, from what you are saying, the Eastern Div. makes the cell phone and no camera rule, correct? Then with so many of their members objecting to this, are they really listening to their members they are asking to pay more dues?

Yes, the Eastern Division makes the rules governing conduct of THEIR meet, and THEIR members seem to be doing fine with the rules they have in effect (the cell phone rule no longer applies).  About the only complaints one will ever see about how the division runs THEIR meet is on this forum.  Aside from that, some 12,000 attendees twice a year seem to have little or no problem with them.

And it has already been determined and explained that the York Meet is and always has been a special event for members of the TCA and their families.  Most all of us seem to think that is just fine (again, aside from the forum whiners).  The event will NOT be open to the public for reasons already fully and adequately explained by Eastern Division officers.

As for your "all expenses paid" comment:  Yes, I attend York, when I do attend, as part of the OGR team.  But I have attended many times in the past when I paid full freight, and from as far away as Dubuque, Iowa, and Chesapeake, Virginia.  That's small stuff compared to those I know personally who attend regularly from California, Oregon, Washington state, Colorado, Arizona, Canada, Hawaii, England, France, Germany, and Australia, among others. 

You live in Ohio yourself.  York is just a hop,skip, and jump away!

DID YOU KNOW that I do not get tables at ALLENTOWN because the State of Pennsylvania requires a 5-plus page form be filled out for Sales Tax...and is interconnected to GUESS WHAT????...your INCOME TAX REPORTING...Hmmm!!!  It just is not worth it!!!  If only things were as SIMPLE as you seem to make it WITHOUT ALL THE FACTS!!!

Seems to be some confusion here...and it's caused by posters simply not doing their homework/getting information (available to all right here on this very Forum) and informing themselves.  Whew.  So much bandwidth could be conserved....  

For the record...I go to York twice a year, every year, and I live in southern California.  Nobody pays my way--though I've often asked Allan to (but he refuses).  I don't "like" of couple of the York rules and I've griped about them a time or two in the past.  But, I'm not an EDTCA member and so I abide by the rules; I do not flaunt the rules while in attendance; I and admire/appreciate the work that EDTCA does for all that attend the Meet.

I can't change the rules, so I abide by them.  The EDTCA has no responsibility to me...so the ball is in my court.  I choose to go and accept.

BTW, I've been a TCA member since late '72 and the dues increase is not onerous, IMHO.

Got my membership renewal 2 days ago. As I stared at the $50 fee printed on the form I thought of all the internet battles, the hateful rants, the drama, all the useless noise about the 2 signature rule keeping people out of the organization. What are all those non-joiners going to do now? Will they join? Na! There going to start carping about the new membership fee keeping people out.

Good point, bigo426.  You're probably quite right about that.  Any excuse they can dig up will likely be applied.

Got my renewal the other day. It's not due until 12/31/13 with another 30 day grace period. I plan to hold off paying until around the second week in January.

Also, in the notice that the TCA sent out they indicated that one reason for the increase, among other reasons, was the expense of the new sewer system. Sometime back they published something in the News Letter or Quarterly about having all the money for the system.

If that is true. What did they do with the money?

I'm going to spend some time next week looking for the article and if I find it I'll post the information.

It is only $15.00. There was no increase for the past six years And the increase was due. IMO they did not increase it enough, it should have been $75.00 per year. 

So stop the whining and just pay the increase or not.