The Death Of S Scale: An Outsiders Opinion

I like your thinking here Andre'

Don't forget the handsome K5 Gilbert produced as well

When I was a kid in the fifties, everyone had a Lionel train set. How many switches you had was your ranking in the herd. We would take turns hosting our "operating sessions."  But--there was always one kid that had American Flyer and once we had been to his house, we went back to our Lionel safe zone. Seemed odd, only having two rails and not quite big enough. I've always wondered what happened to that kid. Probably CEO of some Fortune 500 company.

Andre,

Your "drivelogue" as you put it nicely states exactly what this hobby should be all about; enjoying it to the best our abilities and there are so many ways to do that.  I would agree with you completely that the angry hoards decrying the death of S scale are largely missing the point that there doesn't need to be "new" trains to be produced to enjoy the overwhelming amount of what has already been produced in this scale.  You do have the advantage of having an excellent modeling skillset that gives you a head start over some, but modeling is something everyone can pick up with practice and patience.  I also fully believe that the "less is more" approach to modeling forces you into better decision making.  I am guilty of train hoarding as much as the worst offenders and I feel as if what has gotten lost as I have had the means to collect nicer and "better" trains is that I haven't needed to go back and re-evaluate those projects that could be great with work.  When I was in my 20's, broke, and buying cheap used HO, I was a much better modeler than I am today, and the end result was projects that were ultimately more satisfying.  American Flyer trains do have the advantage of being relatively scale already as you point out as a great starting point for detailing and improving. 

Personally, I made the jump from HO to O high rail and now both high rail and two rail.  Will I ever be able to build a layout?  That is the big question and depends on where I land next in my journey.  I do know that that 2 rail layout in my head is not going to happen at my current residence and my dreams of 20 car passenger trains are for now just that.  Your discussion about being able to let the HO layout go in favor of something else is truly excellent wisdom.  At 56, I'm not quite at the inflection point you have reached, however that time comes for all of us sooner than we expect.   

As long as there are people who can envision what makes for a great layout in S, there will be the means to make it happen.  Enough my own drivelogue in return, but a wonderful post and a reminder that this hobby is supposed to make us happy, not the opposite!

Andre,

Hopefully, welcome back.

Rich

From what little I have read recently, the big bugga-boo with S is really the lack of track to build a nice looking realistic layout with. Plenty of old flyer track but little available in more realistic track from the several manufacturers

Thank you all for some input.

I'm getting ready to head back out to my out building work bench and (hopefully) finish an F7A I've been working on, but later today/tonight I will reply to each post and discuss this further.

The thought of using S scale as a safety net has already made me not dread the onset of old age as badly.

I'm already making changes in my dirt motorcycle riding to better accommodate my aging, so it stands to reason that I can also expect changes will need to be made in order to continue enjoying miniature trains.

All fer now! Out to the building and hoping to add another engine "In Service"!

Andre

Andre,

I had O gauge trains as a youngster in the 1950s, HO for a few years, and then came back to 3-rail O gauge about 28 years ago and built two layouts - 12'-by-8' and 10'-by-5' - both of which are still in operation. I made the decision to stick with 3-rail O after considering S gauge, which I do think is the perfect size.

I'm older than you and not quite as agile as I used to be, so the completed railroads are a big advantage. For me, O gauge was a compromise but nowadays I spend more time than I ever expected on the hobby and the O Gauge Forum. So, my advice to you is to select a scale, build your layout, and plan to stick with it, despite whatever compromises are required by the scale you choose. Every scale has its advantages. Eventually, you will be happy just to have an operating model railroad that you built and, if you're like me, the scale won't matter.

MELGAR

Andre, I am the culprit that originally posted the picture of the 342 0-8-0. That engine is the less common 1952 version with red glowing smoke.

In my world S gauge is neither dead nor dying. There will be fewer new products for a while but there is plenty available in the resale market. Here a few more pictures I recently took on my layout.

Here are a few more.

I have often wondered at the attraction of the doomsday approach to life that some folks seem to favor/need.  It turns out that while the world changes, there are still people doing seemingly outdated and weird things like collecting barbed wire, running model T Fords, breeding horses and playing with with three rail O gauge trains (or S gauge Flyer from 75 years ago).  So finding some pleasure in an activity should not be altered by the doom and gloom crowd.  Live in the reality you want .

The pictures in this thread seem to show S-Scale as alive and well.  If fact it has never looked better.

I'd say your mistake was in throwing out the idea for a 19th Century Colorado line.  LaBelle does some nice rolling stock and BTS structures should work well.

I was disappointed there were no new engines in the 2025 catalog. So I took action by searching out older engines in road numbers or road names I did not buy when they were released. This month I bought five MSOB Legacy engines from the 2011 and 2012 catalogs. I have opened four of those boxes and have the engines running on my layout. Probably better than ordering from a catalog and waiting a year. I also bought eight older but NIB freight and passenger cars I did not have. There is no shortage of S gauge items to buy, even when you have a house full as I do.

Track can be an issue but there are solutions. For those who do not want Gilbert or GarGraves there is Lionel. Lionel S gauge FasTrack is the best sectional track made with its tight joints and solid NS rail. It is made in 20”R and 27”R curves and turnouts, with enough fractional length pieces than any layout that can be designed can be built without the need to cut the track sections. AM has a lot of flex track but they are out of sectional and turnouts.

It would sure be better if a supplier made S gauge code138 numbered turnouts, but no one does. S Scale America has code138 NS rail available for hand laying track and turnouts. SHS/MTH sectional track, flex track and 20”R turnouts are widely available in the resale market. My layout was built using SHS/MTH flextrack and hand laid #5, #6 and #8 turnouts. The turntable was purchased from a commercial supplier.

Below are two pictures on my turntable, one is my original 1950 322AC Hudson that triggered my lifelong attraction to toy trains. The other is one of my new 2025 purchased, 2011 Challengers. Both run perfectly on this layout. In fact, anything Gilbert ever made in S gauge runs on this layout yet I also run AM engines and S Scale America cars with scale profile wheels on the layout. I can even unload my American Flyer coal dump cars, auto unloaded cars and log dump cars, and operate the uncouplers and turnouts using my iPad. I see no reason to be negative about operating in S gauge.

Something to ponder on aging....at least from my POV:

In 2005, at the ripe old age of 34, I broke my back in a ski accident and had a difficult....but very successful....recovery.  (I have full mobility and zero back pain 20 years later.)

For about four months, I had to wear a "turtle shell" over my torso and had very limited mobility.  But I was able to still enjoy three rail O Scale Trains b/c the oversized, lobster claw type couplers were still useable and functional to me....barely.

It hit me...at that moment....what it will be like to age or suffer a severe, permanent injury.

From that moment, I had ZERO issues with our trucks, fast angle wheels, and oversized couplers.  They were able to be easily manipulated when I could barely walk and stand.

I've never had the inkling to convert to Kadees ever since....nor will I.   I prefer not to see the thumbtack and like certain newer styles of couplers very much....but I'm riding three rail O-Scale to my grave.

Great topic and observations.  I’ve never considered S, but have dabbled in N, 1 Gauge, HO and O since coming back into the hobby about thirty years ago.  A recent move has resulted in the inevitable decision about what to keep, and what to let go.  For me, keeping a few pieces of Pre-War O for Christmas duty and the display cabinet is letting me now concentrate on building an HO layout for all the Maerklin I picked while overseas.  True, its smaller size presents some challenges, but I’m keeping it simple, taking inspiration from some of Lionel’s and Maerklin’s early display layouts, where the trains were the stars, not so much the scenery: think classic metal roadbed track, vintage signals and other accessories, where the emphasis is on play value and using one’s imagination.  As my wife said earlier this morning, “Even after thinning out the collection, you’re still going to have a lot of trains to run.”  Not a bad place to be….

Berkshire President, great that you had a full recovery from that accident. With the amount of three rail O gauge items available there is good reason to stay with it. Same with keeping the original trucks and couplers. I have seen layout pictures with the Lionel electromagnets cleverly hidden.

A lot of people told me to switch to Kadees and to use DCC. After some thought, I stayed with Legacy for the control system and became determined to keep the original Gilbert knuckle couplers and link couplers. The layout has a lot of uncouplers placed around the layout. Interestingly, no visitors see them until I point them out.

Additionally, one cannot have Legacy engines without some Sensor Tracks. Lionel has never made an S gauge Sensor Track. I was determined to have three. No problem, we bought three O gauge FasTrack Sensor Tracks and removed the circuit boards. These were mounted under pieces of SHS track. The picture below shows the result of integrating a Sensor Track and uncouplers into the SHS track. This was done before Lionel made the separate sleds. The Sensor Track is to the left of the uncoupler.

Andre, I like and can relate to your approach. As we're all model railroaders, in a very "large tent" as Bear Owen used to say, and considering how realistic S-scale track can be (am picturing the beautiful RTR 2-rail track with built-in roadbed that I've seen in S-scale over the years) I have been tempted to make the switch from 3-rail with the same understanding that you came to.

OH my!

I didn't expect such a response to my post!

I want to thank each of you for your support.

Like I said previously, keeping the door open to enter S Hi Rail should I need to do so, actually gives me something to look forward to if/when the time comes to pull the plug on my HO modeling.

I still need to learn some things about Hi Railing in S so I can understand what all is involved beforehand, but that can happen over time here at this forum. At this point I think I still have several good years of HO modeling in me.

All for now!

Andre "Always Have A Plan" Ming. LOL!

Keep on model railroading, Brother!!  Gauge or Scale Preference is secondary to being in the game.   

Stay with HO as long as you can.  I'm approaching 70 and things don't work as good as they used to.

When there's a will there's a way.

@feet posted:

Stay with HO as long as you can.  I'm approaching 70 and things don't work as good as they used to.

When there's a will there's a way.

Fret thou not.

I will be staying with HO until the Fun Factor is exceeded by the Hassle Factor.

Once that inversion happens in any hobby/interest endeavor, the hobby/interest endeavor is finished whether the owner realizes it (or will admit it) or not.

That is typically what happens to layouts that languish: The Hassle Factor exceeded the Fun Factor and thus the layout begins to collect dust. (Because the owner no longer enjoys piddling with it.)

I enjoy miniature trains too much to let that happen. If changes need to be made, I will make them.

Like my motorcycle riding, I want to hang onto both as long as possible. I've already made changes to my motorcycles (switched to lower and lighter motorcycles) to add years to my ability to enjoy riding, and I am willing to do so with my model trains if needed.

ALWAYS have a plan. LOL!

Andre

Andre, so glad you posted on this forum also.  To answer a question you asked 'over there' in the S world.  I have a 243 DC 0-8-0 stock from the factory.  I convert my Flyer engines to can motors and run DC.  The 0-8-0 DC runs as well as the can motors so I've never converted it.  Can motor conversion is a snap with Flyer steamers.

I change out Flyer freight car wheelsets for SHS or AM metal wheelsets.  I use a Tichy H0 nylon bearing in an eyelet to make up the spacing.  A very easy conversion.  I prefer Kadee #5 and Flyer link couplers.

Have fun,

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

People lament that things are not available, hard to find, but if you go back and look at how things were done in the first half of the 20th century, if you wanted to be different, unique, make something to scale, or in another scale, maybe you wanted to establish bragging rights, you ended up making or adapting everything yourself, that is what made it a hobby.  Same way today, and as one commentor said, it is what makes you happy is what counts.  2 kinds of people in the world, those that are intrinsically or extrinsically motivated. You are happy because you did something, or you are happy because you did something and people reward you for it.  The son of the man that invented the roller bearing, had a massive Lionel/Marx layout in the hayloft of his barn in SC, only the family knew.  He created things only he enjoyed, such as this bashed together 2-14-2 in the attached pic.

@Tom Stoltz posted:

Andre, so glad you posted on this forum also.  To answer a question you asked 'over there' in the S world.

<snip: some good tips and pics>

Hi Tom!

Thanks for your kind words!

Yes, your pics illustrate some of the many options I would have before me.

Over the course of the next few months/years, I will likely experiment with an AF engine and some pieces of "code something" track so I can see up close and personal what all I would be up against and which path would be the most practical for me to consider.

Who knows, it could be that I can do HO up until something sudden takes me to Heaven?

We just can't know these things, can we?

In the meantime: I HAVE A PLAN.  And that's always important to me! LOL!

Andre

@CALNNC posted:

People lament that things are not available, hard to find, but if you go back and look at how things were done in the first half of the 20th century...

<snip: some personal thoughts>

I certainly understand your point you're making and there is validity in it.

In my case, if/when the time comes that I will consider S Hi Rail, the times of challenging kit bashing, scratch building, intense modifications, etc, etc, will be behind me. I'm getting plenty of that in my current HO pursuits.

No, should the time come for me to make the switch to S Hi Rail, I will want a path of less resistance. I foresee sincere, but simplistic, and quickly attainable, scenery.

Think: Photoflats that I can create while seated comfortably in my ergo friendly computer chair, then print them, cut them out, assemble with paste/etc... and slap them in place. In fact, I will be saving the Photoflats seen in this picture from my scale S years for reuse! (However, I will want some additional new ones, too.)

The ground textures will be able to be quickly applied, and such as that.

The days of pursuing intense scale fidelity, as well as scratch and kit bashing, and such, will be behind me. It will be time to kick back and play trains.

Andre

I'm not a hard core S scaler.  American Flyer shares my Christmas tree loops with prewar Lionel O.

My observation is that Lionel isn't making the products that people want.  The market has shrunk, which complicates things.

People want add on items.  I've got a 7 car orange stripe streamliner consist.  If a baggage car was available, I'd buy it.  There's a market for add on passenger cars in every paint scheme.  It's not a quick seller but it's a steady income.

There's a market for sound, without command control (and its price premium).  A tender with sound and a more reliable reverse unit would sell.  Gilbert reverse units are known to be troublesome.

There's a market for remakes of the Gilbert Pacific and Hudson.  And a Mikado based on the Pacific.

The market for high end locomotives is risky.  There's not enough buyers.  There might be enough demand for a generic Decapod that could be a "good enough" model of Strasburg 90 or Frisco 1630.  These are museum locomotives with a following.

There's a market for tubular track, including smaller sections, wider radius curves, and switches with a more modern design.  And the electronic components needed for reverse loops.

The market for themed items is iffy.

The market for Christmas items is iffy and cost sensitive.  The distinct observation car on the Polar Express drives up the cost (because it's unique to the Polar Express) and kills the repaint market.  These are the people who buy a Polar Express on sale and repaint it Pullman Green.

So. . .The products people want aren't there.  People don't buy them, which means that sales go down.  Without sufficient sales, there's no reason to invest in S scale.

I pretty much agree with the above post. I would add that Lionel has already made conventional and FlyerChief versions of the Gilbert Northern using new tooling, yet they did not invest the incremental funds to also make a Legacy version. If Lionel made all three versions of the J3a Hudson they would sell out. I believe there are several reasons Lionel is not doing this. First, most of the S gauge Legacy electronics have digressed from the O gauge versions so that creates a big incremental cost for updating the designs. Second, even though there is a good S gauge market for the right products it remains more profitable for Lionel to invest those incremental funds in an O gauge product.

Really interesting post that hits home. Been in our home for 30 years and it has a relatively small basement, so my layout is restricted to a 13' x 14' space. For that reason, I originally considered S Gauge about 25, but availability, the simplicity of 3-rail wiring, and the PW O27 starter kit inherited from my grandfather took me the O27/non/semi-scale route. I've stuck with it, but just like the S Gaugers lament, that decision has had moments of sacrifice, especially since the fantasy themes (Polar Express, Disney, Scooby Do) don't interest me.

No complaints, however. In fact, I'm still amazed at the variety available to O Scale, O (Non-Scale), and S. Should be picking up my first two LC+2.0 locomotives in the coming months.

As I've noted previously, having fallen into responsibility for our club's S scale travel layout for several years, despite doing 3RS O at home, I've come to appreciate the advantages of S, especially for us retirees.  Had I not accumulated a significant inventory of 3RS O items over the past 30 years, I would have constructed an S layout upon retirement.

Others have noted the problem with track availability.  I used AM flex track for straights, MTH/SHS flex track for curves, and AM turnouts when our travel layout was re-tracked (from GarGraves) several years ago.  The MTH/SHS turnouts seemed better than the AM ones, but weren't readily available.  Until Scale Trains (or someone else) revives the SHS-originated track line, the choices aren't the best for realism.  We didn't use Lionel FasTrack for our travel layout due to cost (though we could have afforded it).

As I've watched the new-to-market S offerings plummet, I've had to think about how the club can keep its S travel layout viable and varied, at reasonable expense.  While we have a number of classic AF steamers, they are not in the best condition.  Since our objective is public display/operation, not collecting/preserving, it seems like can motor conversions, electronics updates (DCC), and repainting/re-lettering might gain us more attractive, better running trains.  Fortunately, one of our new members is quite experienced at custom painting.

There are many nice items in S available on the resale market.  Between that and modernizing older AF steamers that have low value to collectors, it seems that a viable S modeling path can be found.

Karl, if you are using AM turnouts take a look at Carl Tuveson's website. Under Hints and Tips, he details how to add the missing guard rail to fix the reliability issue. www.tuveson.com

@GVDobler posted:

When I was a kid in the fifties, everyone had a Lionel train set.  ...snip...

Oddly, my next-door neighbor has a very large Flyer layout every Christmas and a cousin had Flyer, I was the odd one out with Lionel!

My wife and I are dealing with our parents having significant, end of life health issues.  This experience re-emphasizes the importance of using the time that you have well, among other things.  I think it is terrific that you have given thought on how to enjoy your hobbies in your senior years.  The trains, the motorcycles - if those hobbies generally give you joy, the compromises involved in choosing one form of the hobby are irrelevant; the important thing is to exercise those interests and at 73 the fact that you can still do so is a gift in and of itself.  Your post cheered me.  Here’s to your having many years of enjoyment with S gauge.