The death of the TMCC upgrade

robmcc posted:

Dave, I guess my point was I shouldn't have to settle on the "first option" because Lionel is now forcing my hand and it's my pretty much my ONLY option. Maybe there isn't a huge market for upgrades, but if there was a wider range of options available, who's to say what the potential could be?  I've always wished there was a programmable Railsounds board available, like ProtoSound.  That way you could use a generic board with specific sound files. If MTH is able to do it, why can't Lionel? 

My guess would involve the way things have evolved over the years.

Back when TMCC was developed, there was likely not a highly feasible method to allow user programming of chips like was done for DCS/Proto2 (and now of course Proto3) many years later.

Legacy was based on TMCC, even if quite a bit more advanced.  I am sure if they had re-engineered things to also have user programmable chips for sounds, it would have ended up much more complex and also much more expensive.  They (rightfully so, IMO) prioritized the new controller working properly with old trains, and also the new trains having basic functionality (less some of the more advanced features) with the old controller.  That was no simple task, I am sure, all while keeping the new system at a price point that would work.

I don't think that will happen unless Lionel sells it to them and I doubt if they will.

GGG posted:

Landsteiner posted:

I do hope that the decision to close Electric RR is not the final word.  Some opportunity to upgrade conventional/older locomotives to TMCC (or perhaps LionChief+) is essential to a small proportion of consumers and to Lionel’s image as the leader in the field.

 

Lionel’s main competition,  MTH, has been noticeably unfriendly to upgrades over the years,  and this has helped cement Lionel’s role as the primary innovator in the industry.  Completely eliminating TMCC upgrades without a possibility of upgrading to LionChiefPlus for command capability would be a marketing gift to their main competition.

This is a false statement. MTH "unfriendly to upgrades???.  Some how this makes Lionel and innovator???  ERR was Jon's brain child and Lionel bought him out.

As far as MTH, they make and sell upgrade kits.  They made PS-2 steam and diesel kits, even made a slave kit to upgrade their ABA.  They made conversion kits to repair their first generation PS-2 5V board, ensuring the second generation PS-2 3V was backward compatible, they then put in the effort to redo all the sound files for PS-2 5V boards to support it.

When parts became obsolete they transitioned to PS-3 and created the PS-3 upgrade kits, they also made the PS-32 to replace the PS-2 3V and 5V boards.

They have always been backwards compatible.  Why do you always stir the pot and cast MTH in a negative view.

The was about Lionel not MTH.  Frankly read the tea leaves.  Who is the only manufacture that does not repair their own trains because of employee cuts?  Now selling a product is cut?  G

I agree, I've never had trouble locating or ordering any PS2 or PS3 upgrade kit. MTH has been very friendly when it comes to upgrade kits, they even offered PS1 upgrade kits before 2000 as I understand. I can call, email, or even order online and members of their club get a discount on the kits.

G, I think that some posters equate MTH to the cause of cancer and Lionel as the only ones who help cure it.  I like them both, but Lionel has been a hard pill swallow lately with some of the recent woes in products and now this. As you have posted before, working on newer legacy stuff is getting harder and number of people who have access to technical information and the know how are limited.

Lionel simply doesn't offer anything upgrade wise anymore. It's buy new and ship it somewhere else for service after the warranty period is done.

I'm sad to see the TMCC upgrades go and this maybe the final straw for me. I have about 8 engine I've done TMCC upgrades in and now I'm considering converting all of them to DCS and sell the removed TMCC upgrades kits in a few years to some desperate TMCC diehards.

I really hope Lionel reconsiders this decision, ERR upgrades were easy to perform and included great instructions for just about any project.

"I agree that the ERR line could and should shrink significantly. I would hope though that there would be an option that the boards that will be supplied to Atlas and 3rd Rail could still be retailed to consumers. I have long been a supporter of the TMCC / Legacy system and every engine that runs on my layout is TMCC equipped. The loss of ERR leaves many of us with a tough decision to face as we decide to either adopt MTH DCS in order to upgrade or start gutting other locomotives to salvage electronics. 

Ken is a single man operation. He answers phone calls, takes orders, programs and tests every unit that is sent out and puts together all the kits that we enjoy. Every one of the sound cards he programs, all the TMCC boards he programs including the Min II and the he tests everyone. He is a great individual and a huge asset to the hobby and will be surely missed. I don't think Lionel has any idea how much he does nor has anyone that can do what he does so Ken enjoy your retirement!

Dave45681 posted:

s for certain items means that the Guggenheim people are holding the purse strings and dictating how things like this go, rather than allowing things like this that build good will from hobbyists to continue.

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel for over a year.  One of the partners from Guggenheim took control of Lionel, and the bean counting began.   The loss of 20 people from the Lionel employee roster was a result.  So was the sale of the archives.  

This decision really puts the screws to those of us who purchase high quality older stuff with the intention to upgrade them, especially if they don't have flywheels and therefore can't be PS3-2'd.  Very disappointing!

No market for upgrade packages?

No one will then step up and offer a similar product , unless Fred Seversen get's back in the game with upgrade electronics.  That's where it all began anyway.

BMT-Express posted:

Dave45681 posted:

s for certain items means that the Guggenheim people are holding the purse strings and dictating how things like this go, rather than allowing things like this that build good will from hobbyists to continue.

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel for over a year.  One of the partners from Guggenheim took control of Lionel, and the bean counting began.   The loss of 20 people from the Lionel employee roster was a result.  So was the sale of the archives.  

Want the new owner to be interested. Cancel, all orders and do not buy any new product....

This deals a serious blow to all of us who have invested in Lionel products for the past 60 plus years. I know, don't tell me what you have done for the past ownership of Lionel, tell me what you will do for the next 10 years. The new ownership of Lionel hasn't been there for the past sales, they just want to make a profit in the future.

Well, I and many of the others here have several years of dollars to spend and now must make a decision on where that will be. Lionel doesn't look like a good investment since they are going away from an area that has served as a backbone for the revival of this aspect of the model train industry. Without TMCC, Legacy (glorified TMCC) would not have made it. 

I would love to know what their marketing plans are based on as they look at the next 10 years, where they can recover the investment in the Lionel line. This will seriously hurt the purchase of future Lionel products by the base of the market who have been in Lionel for years. Do they think that there are a lot of young kids out there purchasing those $2000 locomotives as their first train? Do they think they can hang their hat on the sale of LionChief plus in $500 ready-to-run kits? Maybe they think we will just overlook this and buy new Legacy products that they may not support in a few years.

BMT-Express posted:

Dave45681 posted:

s for certain items means that the Guggenheim people are holding the purse strings and dictating how things like this go, rather than allowing things like this that build good will from hobbyists to continue.

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel for over a year.  One of the partners from Guggenheim took control of Lionel, and the bean counting began.   The loss of 20 people from the Lionel employee roster was a result.  So was the sale of the archives.  

Really, and who might that be....???

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was needless to say, bummed out by hearing this news.  I will doubtless have to discontinue my Super-Chuffer and Chuff-Generator as not having TMCC upgrades makes them kinda' moot.  I will obviously be emphasizing my PS/3 upgrade business since that's now the only command/control upgrade path it would appear.  I discount BlueTooth at the present as I still haven't seen an O-gauge product.  Sure makes me wonder why I didn't go with HO and standard control systems!

I'll be taking a close look at the MTH catalogs for my future purchases, hard to justify rewarding Lionel for jerking the rug out!

Well, we've certainly seen MTH pull the rug out multiple times over the past 20 years and I'm not about to reward MTH for their "jerking" over the years.  My MTH memories live long and strong.

OTOH, I'm probably not going to buy much more Lionel, if any, beyond what I've ordered, since the decision to close ERR, if done, is - at best - completely incomprehensible to all of us customers and toy train addicted maniacs.

SMH.

BMT-Express posted:

Dave45681 posted:

s for certain items means that the Guggenheim people are holding the purse strings and dictating how things like this go, rather than allowing things like this that build good will from hobbyists to continue.

The bottom line is this company needs another interested owner like Richard Kughn in charge right now, not a financial company that couldn't care less if they are making model trains vs. pencils or paper plates.

-Dave

Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel for over a year.  One of the partners from Guggenheim took control of Lionel, and the bean counting began.   The loss of 20 people from the Lionel employee roster was a result.  So was the sale of the archives.  

It would be really cool to have a reputable reference for this.  Please cite a WSJ article or something similar.

Thanks.

Thomps, what MTH  jerking are you talking about?  I may have missed something and was hoping you could point it out.  I am very curious what they pulled the rug on.  

To me this is the classic big company buys small company and kills it. It is also an example of the big company just wanting to sell new product and doesn’t understand the word service. It’s too bad the big boys can’t figure out how to provide service and make a profit doing it. This is how large corporate America runs, notice I didn’t say works. 

I've read everyone's opinions.  The one that sticks out as most relevant is the one person with inside understanding of both the technology and of Lionel.  I am referring, of course,  to Jon Z.  He is optimistic that something will be worked out somehow by someone to make command upgrades available.  If Lionel chooses not to make them available, they would be nuts to not let other people do so. Since I don't think they are nuts, that's one possibility.

Thus I'll delay my "sky is falling" insurance purchase,  for at least a month or two.  Chicken Little has left the train show, at least for the moment .  

Good point.  My bet is the product will not go away.  Time will tell all.  If the product was a dog, anything could happen.  It is far from being a dog and I am sure someone will keep things going.

So far this is a PR disaster. 

Nick

Is there an opportunity for a train store that is currently selling/installing ERR products to take over the product line (say, just as an example, an outfit like Henning's Trains)? I'm thinking they could, if they chose, even use the same supplier that ERR has been using to assemble and package the boards. Also, they might be able to get a license from Lionel to produce the ERR RailSounds boards.

For many years, before ERR, both TAS Studios and Digital Dynamics produced aftermarket TMCC products, including RailSounds boards, under license from Lionel (TAS also produced OEM boards for Atlas and 3rd Rail). This would be the same business model, and it would seem feasible for it to be done again by a train store that is already dealing with the ERR product line and that has experience producing and selling its own products.

Personally, I posted on how much upgrading my 6 remaining beloved engines to PS3 would be as an average cost. At present I have approximately 2200.00 on Lionel items pre-order which, (I know its not my Dealers fault, and I will feel for him, really), but Monday morning I will be canceling those orders and use the funds to have my remaining engines upgraded to PS3. Engines that mean a lot to me but have had boards that went bad, or PS1 engines that were special gifts. 

This, with so much Lionel product problems, it may also be for the best. I remember decades ago when Lionel listened to consumers, and their service, and service centers were the pride of the Lionel Corp. and their buyers, bar non.

"Well, we've certainly seen MTH pull the rug out multiple times over the past 20 years.."

I've had DCS since it first came out 16 years ago, and I'm not missing any rugs.  Can you elaborate?  Everything I bought with an MTH brand is still fully functional, and runs under its very latest offering.

GGG posted:

Landsteiner posted:

I do hope that the decision to close Electric RR is not the final word.  Some opportunity to upgrade conventional/older locomotives to TMCC (or perhaps LionChief+) is essential to a small proportion of consumers and to Lionel’s image as the leader in the field.

 

Lionel’s main competition,  MTH, has been noticeably unfriendly to upgrades over the years,  and this has helped cement Lionel’s role as the primary innovator in the industry.  Completely eliminating TMCC upgrades without a possibility of upgrading to LionChiefPlus for command capability would be a marketing gift to their main competition.

This is a false statement. MTH "unfriendly to upgrades???.  Some how this makes Lionel and innovator???  ERR was Jon's brain child and Lionel bought him out.

As far as MTH, they make and sell upgrade kits.  They made PS-2 steam and diesel kits, even made a slave kit to upgrade their ABA.  They made conversion kits to repair their first generation PS-2 5V board, ensuring the second generation PS-2 3V was backward compatible, they then put in the effort to redo all the sound files for PS-2 5V boards to support it.

When parts became obsolete they transitioned to PS-3 and created the PS-3 upgrade kits, they also made the PS-32 to replace the PS-2 3V and 5V boards.

They have always been backwards compatible.  Why do you always stir the pot and cast MTH in a negative view.

The was about Lionel not MTH.  Frankly read the tea leaves.  Who is the only manufacture that does not repair their own trains because of employee cuts?  Now selling a product is cut?  G

So who can buy PS3 upgrade kits? Are they available for public purchase, or for purchase only by anointed MTH repair techs? 

Another dismal outcome of Lionel's decision to cease ERR operations and no longer offer tmmc replacement boards is what effect it will have on future 3rd Rail Sunset Models sales and offerings? While Lionel Legacy engines are pricey, at least they'll be able to continue being serviced when the need arises but when an almost equally high priced TMCC 3rd Rail Sunset engine fails, what then? What recourse will their be for its owner? To relegate that engine to the role of an expensive shelf queen or delicate but pricey doorstop?  So, this action doesn't seem to forbode well for 3rd Rail fans either! Might this decision mark the beginning of the end for that relatively small company's engine manufacturing efforts???

I wonder when or even if anyone from 3rd Rail Sunset Models will chime in on this topic and what they might say about this revelation?

Nick12DMC posted:

So far this is a PR disaster. 

Nick

A very serious PR disaster! I agree.............

ogaugeguy posted:

Another dismal outcome of Lionel's decision to cease ERR operations and no longer offer tmmc replacement boards is what effect it will have on future 3rd Rail sales and offerings? While Lionel Legacy engines are pricey, at least they'll be able to continue being serviced when the need arises but when an almost equally high priced TMCC 3rd Rail engine fails, what then? What recourse will their be for its owner? To relegate that engine to the role of an expensive shelf queen or delicate but pricey doorstop?  So, this action doesn't seem to forbode well for 3rd Rail fans either! Might this decision mark the beginning of the end for that rlatively small company???

Kenn,

Exactly, and as others have stated. One must wonder about future support of other products. It sort on makes me think legacy...

this is exactly why Open Source systems such as the NMRA standard DCC are so much better to use.    One mfg deciding to leave the market causes a ripple, but not a disaster.     I could name at least 6 mfg of loco control boards and 4-5 of throttle/control systems for DCC and I am not in the market, so my information is not up  to date.    For DCS and TMCC there appears to be only on source for each and not much option for general purchase.

"So who can buy PS3 upgrade kits? Are they available for public purchase"

YES!  PS2 kits have been available since 2004 and PS3 since shortly after it was released.

Maybe Warren Buffet will buy Lionel and save the day? He likes trains and also likes to keep companies and make them profitable instead of taking all their money and assets and running. See BNSF. Might also help Lionel start offering more BNSF product!! 

I am very unhappy with this decision.  I operate command control for the most part both TMCC/Legacy but I have about 6 older Lionel AC motor locomotives that I was slowly converting.  I was adding Legacy but if this is the way LIONEL supports the product count me out.  Liked the ERR kits because they were an easy convert.  Anyway poor business decision, the better one would have been to add Legacy kits.  No more Legacy for me.

Just a few observations from this thread:

Will these actions spawn the development of an EOB v2?

Would like to hear from forum member NY

Would not want to be an L dealer reading about cancelled orders/lost $

My two cents

First I am not really that great on electronic but thanks to all electrical wizards (gurus) I have been able to upgrade and fix most of my own stuff.  My plan was first build the lay and then go through all my stuff and see what I want to up grade, this news throw a monkey wrench. I hope this all plays out and we can still are able to upgrade our stuff.

I do not write but I did write to Lionel asking them to keep ERR alive. I think we need to start a write campaign to Lionel on this issue.

One point nobody has mentioned is that Lionel recently relaxed its rules about purchasing almost all PCB’s, including Legacy system components. It was announced with little fanfare as a service dept news post on the dealer site. So, you can purchase the components necessary for upgrades, but you have to know what to order and know what you are doing. So upgrades aren’t going to be as easy for the people who need all the hand holding and support. It can be done, but there won’t be any nice kits for the casual amateur. 

prrjim posted:

this is exactly why Open Source systems such as the NMRA standard DCC are so much better to use.    One mfg deciding to leave the market causes a ripple, but not a disaster.     I could name at least 6 mfg of loco control boards and 4-5 of throttle/control systems for DCC and I am not in the market, so my information is not up  to date.    For DCS and TMCC there appears to be only on source for each and not much option for general purchase.

I agree with the open source and standards. Seems to be a good thing for all involved. I have been wanting to try DCC for several years now, maybe I will think a little more seriously about that. I am not current on all the DCC product available, but they have come out with some O gauge capable boards and their sounds are really improving as well. I believe they are also getting into wifi and apps for control if you happen to like that. I will get around to trying DCC one of these days.

GregR posted:

One point nobody has mentioned is that Lionel recently relaxed its rules about purchasing almost all PCB’s, including Legacy system components. It was announced with little fanfare as a service dept news post on the dealer site. So, you can purchase the components necessary for upgrades, but you have to know what to order and know what you are doing. So upgrades aren’t going to be as easy for the people who need all the hand holding and support. It can be done, but there won’t be any nice kits for the casual amateur. 

I think many have mentioned the term EASY upgrade. That is a BIG point.

Several years ago, I bought a TMCC loco that really didn't respond all that well to conventional control, so I bit the bullet and bought TMCC.  Since then I purchased one Legacy loco and had two conventional locos upgraded w/ERR boards when their electronics gave out.  I was betting that TMCC would receive continued support.

I apparently lost the bet.

Therefore, when the next loco fails, I will begin the process of stripping all control systems out of the engines.  They will be replaced with direct wiring and/or a bridge rectifier, and the layout will revert to conventional control.  Or perhaps I'll use DC.

Either way, I will get off the merry-go-'round.  I should have known better at the outset than to succumb to novelitis.  If I lose smoke units and sound, so be it--I started out without those.

Lionel has been doing its best to undermine my loyalty to it for years.  I think they have finally succeeded.  Fortunately, I have all I'll ever need, and the few things I want still are old news.

And then there is that urge I have to collect old AHM 2R O scale . . . .  No control problems there!

"I was betting that TMCC would receive continued support.

I apparently lost the bet."

TMCC support is now Legacy support. The system, as you no doubt know, is backward compatible. As noted by GregR above, Lionel is now making available Legacy components for anyone with the knowledge and ability to do an install. I'm sure there will be individuals who have that knowledge and ability.

20+ years ago I sent MTH PS1 locos to Ed at Digital Dynamics and others sent locos to Mike Reagan at Train America, and they did TMCC installs when Lionel wasn't selling TMCC upgrades. 

Jon Z. at Electric RR soon became the only supplier of TMCC equipment for after market upgrades. 

I'm sure someone will fill this gap in 2018 or 2019.  The market abhors a vacuum. I wouldn't pay off that bet just yet . 

The rush to judgment and sad feelings of abandonment seem awfully early to me.  And the glee some have shown in this proof of Lionel's lack of care is rather bizarre.  I sympathize with the pain, but think it's entirely unnecessary, self-inflicted and wildly premature.

Well, there ya go. Bean counters stick it to the rest of us. This is a very disappointing decision on the part of Lionel. I went with TMCC/Legacy because I like the ease of use and consistent operation.

Much can be said about the diversion into lower cost operating systems ahem "LIONCHIEF", that are totally incompatible with TMCC/Legacy. Again another way to stick it to your long time customers. Guess it's about time to cash out and sell off my trains. What an unmitigated disappointment. This also begs the question about Atlas. What will they be doing in light of this decision. Also what about Command Control Switch upgrades? Will they still be available.

Folks,

I wanted to weigh in a bit on this thread as after all I founded Electric RR, and I am still involved with the operations of the Lionel CA office which is closing this year.   I don't believe in my heart that Lionel wants to hurt the hobby in any way, they just have few options going forward with Electric RR.   Lionel owns the entirety of Electric RR, and I do not have a "revert to me" clause.  I sold this entity to Lionel a log time ago to keep it viable after I joined Lionel.  It was a good move for me, and for Lionel, as the solid profits helped keep the CA office expenses down.

Electric RR has been a good run for technology that is 12+ years old.   I hired Ken to run Electric RR 10 or so years ago.  Ken is the lifeblood of the current business, as many of you can attest by interactions with him.  Ken is ready to retire, and is well into his 80's, God bless.  Without Ken, Electric RR is no more.

Electric RR Inventory is almost all zero, and it will take 4-6 months to rebuild.  Restarting is complicated.  Adding to this, my investment in the technology has been nil for years, and the parts obsolescence is a BIG factor.  Much of the electronics need attention to continue to be made, although the core PCBs are still manufacturer-able for the OEMs.    I do have to adjust code for the OEMs at times, which I am sure I will do if asked to keep them on track

I share your disappointment, as founder of Electric RR.  Tough to see it fade away, although it may be that it is revived at some point.   There are tough choices, and I am sure the Lionel management is looking at them.  Eventually, it will sort out and things will be fine.  As they say, when one door closes, 2 more open - you just have to find them!  Your feedback is good, and please continue to enjoy this fine hobby. 

In closing, the nice comments about the products are really heart warming for me, as I really feel connected to the hobby with my small contribution.

Thank you.

jon

Thank you Jon for ERR, great products, by the way I am Kens' biggest fan.

Ray

Gregr, MTH tech guys are not anointed.  They spend time and money to go to the MTH school and get trained.   Anyone can buy MTH upgrade kits.  Being the smart guy you are,  you would know that answer.   

Kerrigan posted:

No market for upgrade packages?

No one will then step up and offer a similar product , unless Fred Seversen get's back in the game with upgrade electronics.  That's where it all began anyway.

I agree as QSI did at one time make the QS3000 board that made a PS1 board TMCC compatible. Several years ago QSI advertised a new board that would work with DCC, DCS & TMCC...but it never came out. QSI is supposedly developing a new Titan O & G scale board...perhaps with enough interest it could be DCC, DCS & TMCC compatible?