This is extremely disappointing. I bought an older TMCC command base and cab-1 remote along with a k-line engine for my son for Christmas. I also had bought an older conventional Lionel Alco set and had planned to do the ERR upgrade. My long term plan was to do a few ERR upgrades so that we could afford to have some command control engines. At some point I was thinking about moving towards legacy in the future with the purchase of a legacy E-6 Atlantic. I love the history of Lionel but feel left out with this decision. With nothing affordable now to keep me with Lionel's command system I will probably look for alternatives. Sorry Lionel.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:For me, DCS is a non-starter, because I want use a computer to run some of my trains. DCS can't do that, because the command codes remain unpublished to this day.
Have you checked out Mark's RTC program that allows PC control of MTH DCS?
Click HERE for his webpage with everything you'll need to know if you are interested.
One thing that I can tell you for sure, this wasn't a 'sudden decision' that caught Lionel by surprise, when you have a business being run by a guy who is 80 years old and he is the only one, kind of hard to argue that, given that someone who is 80 could simply decide they want to relax, may be getting too old to handle it, or for other reasons. I know companies are shortsighted, but a decision to close down a business unit doesn't happen out of the blue, they take into account things like customer reaction to them closing down, the cost of closing a business, whether they have something else to replace it or are just basically 'throwing it away', it has been thought out. Ken retiring might have been the impetus for the decision, but they had to have been thinking of this for a while, the beancounters were running the numbers and so forth.
It could be that Lionel is going to turn TMCC including upgrade kit business over to someone else (given that Legacy is their command system, and it is quite advanced compared to TMCC), it could be they are going to finally offer upgrade path(s) to Legacy for older engines (I suspect not, given the complexity of what I have seen of Legacy control, and also I wonder how much such a kit would cost, it would have to be a lot more than TMCC upgrade). If they did this thinking it would force people to buy Legacy engines or LC+ in numbers I suspect they would be missing the boat on that, people who upgrade old engines do it either because of the price or in many cases, because they like their older units.
What it does sound to me like they made the announcement premature, that they should of, from a PR standpoint, announced the end of ERR but also mentioned what future options might be, even if they haven't finalized them, saying two doors open when one closes is to me boilerplate, that could mean "with the death of ERR, all you people can buy our new shiny legacy or Legacy units, instead of the cost and pain of upgrading that old clunker" as the two paths, who knows? One of the lessons companies still fail to learn is that secrecy and speaking before they have plans in place, or keeping their customer informed of major changes, backfires, what some thing is 'minimizing the damage' is what leads to the speculation we have seen on here over this, the anger and so forth. I don't know why Lionel didn't say much beyond ERR was shutting down, whether they hadn't formulated a plan for that segment of the community, or they thought it wasn't important enough to warrant that, but it is a mistake. Even if folks wanting to upgrade is a relatively small part of the community, everyone else who runs these trains is watching and something like this doesn't look good, even if it doesn't affect them directly *shrug*.
INTERESTING, INTERESTING, I'm in the stage of putting the finishing touches to my train room with the forcast of getting on my train table to start building. The funny thing is I have a ERR AC Commander board on the table with an old F3 that I was going to use to get my feet wet with. I got the F3 from ebay and it had a problem with the e-unit so it was perfect for the situation. I have 10 F3 units to convert to TMCC and 1 Williams NS OCS to convert with a DC Commander. I didn't make York last weekend because I've purchased about 5 new locos, 2 on BTO and 2 new 3rd Rail, so my York was made at home. I guess if I can't get any more AC Commander boards, I have a ZW-L that I can use with my F3's but somehow that doesn't satisfy me at this time with this announcement. Does anyone know where you can purchase AC Commander boards (for what they're worth and for how long), and the question surfaces - Will Lionel sell Legacy kits so that you can convert Post War trains to Legacy. A lot of wishful thinking. Other than listen out for more news, I guess I'll email Lionel and express my concerns because I doubt if Lionel wants to incur a shift of its followers to MTH.
It's possible to cobble together an AC rig with parts from Lionel parts if you're so inclined. It will be more work, and you'll get to understand how to make cables for TMCC, but it is possible. 
Does anyone know if ERR is still filling orders? I have one in this past Saturday. I'm not getting any emails that its been refused by ERR.
H1000 posted:Big_Boy_4005 posted:For me, DCS is a non-starter, because I want use a computer to run some of my trains. DCS can't do that, because the command codes remain unpublished to this day.
Have you checked out Mark's RTC program that allows PC control of MTH DCS?
Click HERE for his webpage with everything you'll need to know if you are interested.
Thanks, but I'm not even going to consider it. My layout is too big, and not wired for DCS. I also have a personal grudge against the way Mike brought DCS to market. I cannot abide a patent troll. Ultimately justice prevailed, but that completely turned me off. I have a very long memory.
In addition, I own nine Cab-1's for use during operating sessions. This is another reason I don't care about Legacy. Cab-2's are twice the price. I don't know how expensive DCS remotes are.
I recently ordered a bunch of the new Legacy engines with Blue Tooth. My fleet is pretty large, and there's not much point to starting with a lot of MTH engines at this late date. The cost / benefit just isn't there for me.
Patrick1544 posted:Does anyone know if ERR is still filling orders? I have one in this past Saturday. I'm not getting any emails that its been refused by ERR.
I got a Paypal receipt for my order, so I have to assume that it will be honored. I'll be more unhappy if it isn't and I get a refund.
bigkid posted:One thing that I can tell you for sure, this wasn't a 'sudden decision' that caught Lionel by surprise,
No, I doubt that it caught Lionel by surprise, but it's at least possible that the decision to completely shut down ERR may not have been made that long ago either. Lionel included a page on ERR products in their 2018 volume 1 catalog.
I love TMCC and the ERR cruise commander as it makes my small fleet of steamers run like real scale models not 3 rail slot cars !! My plans were to eventually get them all converted. I ordered 2 more setups for my 2 favorite unconverted locos.
Going forward I may have a product with no support and no in kind replacement parts available.
I hope ERR can be saved or a similar product becomes available.
Time to send Mr Hitchcock an email.
I see where you guys are coming from. Let me offer a new perspective. I entered the hobby less than 2 years ago. I started with Lionchief plus then went on to Legacy. Lionel has to see the future. TMCC is 12+ year old tech and Legacy beats it hands down in performance and sound. I believe the best bet is devoting all available resources and personel to making the most cutting edge steam and diesel locomotives as possible. Lionel is on the right track. It looks like the next step is Bluetooth controlled Legacy. I know it hurts you can't easily upgrade the models of years past but the option will always be there. Although it may be now more difficult. I can't wait to get my 2018 H10 set and BN SW7.
It's pretty clear that this thread has struck a chord with the hobby. However, the only way that Lionel is going to hear us is if we treat this in a civil manner. Let's please stay on point.
If this is truly important to you, email Lionel at Talktous@lionel.com
For me personally this is very important that Lionel continue to support the adoption of the technology they created in 1995. Let your words be clear and firm, we will not let this important piece of Lionel fall away without a fight.
Thanks,
Derek
If you order from ERR you don’t get any emails, your packages just show up in 2 weeks.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:Patrick1544 posted:Does anyone know if ERR is still filling orders? I have one in this past Saturday. I'm not getting any emails that its been refused by ERR.
I got a Paypal receipt for my order, so I have to assume that it will be honored. I'll be more unhappy if it isn't and I get a refund.
Elliott,
I got a PayPal receipt also, but I always get a receipt from PP, no matter. I think It's just a PP service.
Thank you all for all of your support in the past it has truly been a great experience. Thank you also to the Forum for all that you have done for us modelers. But your delete of my last post has helped me come too a sad decision. With much sadness. Cheers Jim
I feel lucky to be hooked on Postwar, with good old conventional control using my ZW's. Not long ago, I ALMOST got the bug to try some TMCC. I am definitely over that urge now!
Jeff
Matt Makens posted:If you order from ERR you don’t get any emails, your packages just show up in 2 weeks.
Not surprised, so in two weeks I'll expect a package. At least with paypal if there's anything wrong I can get my money back. I also emailed Ken to thank him for all his help. No response, wouldn't be surprised if I don't get one.
Also for all those who emailed Lionel to reconsider. Did anyone get a response??? I haven't as of yet.
I just ordered a few mins ago and everything was still there except the dump car control unit. I think ERR is going to be swaped with orders for the next few weeks. I wanted do this purchase over time, oh well there goes my York funds.
rtraincollector posted:Jsulli21 posted:modeltrainsparts posted:This is very disturbing news to say the least. The one change I've noticed that the return labels on my last two orders from ERR indicated the package was from B.G. Technologies of the same Walsh Ave. address. Any explanations?
B.G.Technologies is the original name of the ERR company. I questioned ken when I ordered a board from ERR and saw the B.G. technologies on the invoice, and that was his answer.
Well if B.G.Technologies is who actually manufactures them, I wonder if someone could contact them and get the product from them. ( I'm not meaning as a individual but as a company that has the assets to do so)
B.G. technologies is ERR. Same co.
BobbyD posted:necrails posted:The single comment I find interesting in all of this is ERR was in the black, marginally, but in the black. Now if it were marginally in the red this makes more sense. I highly doubt killing the upgrade path is going to generate more sales, I expect the opposite will be true.
"Marginally" is all relative. Depends on how much salary and your expenses you remove prior to the bottom line.
If "in the black, marginally" is true, the likely reality is that profit margin does not meet the Return on Investment or Equity (ROI/ROE) that the ownership group demands. EBIDA is also a key decision factor for investment groups. What was acceptable 10 to 20 years ago is often not even half of today's investment standard.
As others mentioned, the increased utilization of Bluetooth component capabilities might be the path that Lionel and others might pursue. This situation could also further the argument for one control standard like DCC in the other scales. It's still disappointing news to hear when a good and greatly accepted product is given its end of life sentence.
As a business owner I can certainly understand Lionel in regards to the bottom. I do however believe they should make an effort to find and license a third party to offer these components. There is obviously a demand for the present and future for all of the offerings that ERR provided. This hobby has so many different categories and it sure would be a shame to see one (TMCC upgrades) fall off the map.
Alex M., this could be an opportunity for you. Why don't you give Lionel a call.
Ken, enjoy your retirement, you earned it.
Patrick1544 posted: "Does anyone know if ERR is still filling orders? I have one in this past Saturday. I'm not getting any emails that its been refused by ERR."
Patrick, I called ERR this morning and I was able to talk with Ken. He kindly suggested the components I needed to do an upgrade on one of my engines for command and sound. I placed my order via paypal while conversing with him. I was told my order was secured, and he still had enough to fill my order. Ken did mention that he was really busy with lots of orders over the weekend. I would think the orders placed over the weekend before mine will be shipped.
Ken is extremely busy filling all the orders, but very gracious in taking my call. The ERR operations are moving to North Carolina. Hope this helps 
BMT-Express posted:bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
then smarty pants who owns them???
the latest I have is;
It went from Cowen to Cohn to General Mills to Kughn to Wellspring to Guggenheim.
it was discussed in detail here;
bigdodgetrain posted:BMT-Express posted:bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
then smarty pants who owns them???
the latest I have is;
It went from Cowen to Cohn to General Mills to Kughn to Wellspring to Guggenheim.
I asked days ago for "those in the know" to cite a definitive reference about Lionel's ownership (e.g., WSJ, Forbes).
Crickets.
Notch 6 posted:
For me personally this is very important that Lionel continue to support the adoption of the technology they created in 1995.
Derek
Or else provide a suitable replacement. However, it is frustrating to learn that Lionel will continue to make the product in order to provide it to Atlas O and 3rd Rail, but deny it to hobbyists.
It is very possible one aspect of this is that the bean counter at the top wants to discourage people from upgrading their older Lionel (and other manufacturers') products, and push them toward purchasing new products instead. If that's the case, given the nature of those experienced hobbyists who do such upgrades, and all they already buy, I think this strategy is flawed. In addition, as it is, in many cases it is already a borderline proposition for many to spend the money (materials and labor) to do that many upgrades. Bottom line is that it's hard to see that continuing to provide ERR products to consumers is going to hurt Lionel economically in any meaningful way.
trainnut56 posted:Thank you all for all of your support in the past it has truly been a great experience. Thank you also to the Forum for all that you have done for us modelers. But your delete of my last post has helped me come too a sad decision. With much sadness. Cheers Jim
Apparently the moderators deleted it because you were WRONG!
gunrunnerjohn posted:It's possible to cobble together an AC rig with parts from Lionel parts if you're so inclined. It will be more work, and you'll get to understand how to make cables for TMCC, but it is possible.
A lionel lcru will work. Those are still available...from lionel for AC stuff
The LCRU or LCRU2 is a very poor substitute for the AC Commander. I replaced the LCRU2 in my Phantom when I upgraded it to two motors, the difference after sticking the AC Commander in was simply amazing!
breezinup posted:Notch 6 posted:
For me personally this is very important that Lionel continue to support the adoption of the technology they created in 1995.
DerekOr else provide a suitable replacement. However, it is frustrating to learn that Lionel will continue to make the product in order to provide it to Atlas O and 3rd Rail, but deny it to hobbyists.
It is very possible one aspect of this is that the bean counter at the top wants to discourage people from upgrading their older Lionel (and other manufacturers') products, and push them toward purchasing new products instead. If that's the case, given the nature of those experienced hobbyists who do such upgrades, and all they already buy, I think this strategy is flawed. In addition, as it is, in many cases it is already a borderline proposition for many to spend the money (materials and labor) to do that many upgrades. Bottom line is that it's hard to see that continuing to provide ERR products to consumers is going to hurt Lionel economically in any meaningful way.
"Bottom line is that it's hard to see that continuing to provide ERR products to consumers is going to hurt Lionel economically in any meaningful way." Baseball, to this day never recovered from the strike. It doesn't take much to **** people off.
shawn posted:breezinup posted:Notch 6 posted:
For me personally this is very important that Lionel continue to support the adoption of the technology they created in 1995.
DerekOr else provide a suitable replacement. However, it is frustrating to learn that Lionel will continue to make the product in order to provide it to Atlas O and 3rd Rail, but deny it to hobbyists.
It is very possible one aspect of this is that the bean counter at the top wants to discourage people from upgrading their older Lionel (and other manufacturers') products, and push them toward purchasing new products instead. If that's the case, given the nature of those experienced hobbyists who do such upgrades, and all they already buy, I think this strategy is flawed. In addition, as it is, in many cases it is already a borderline proposition for many to spend the money (materials and labor) to do that many upgrades. Bottom line is that it's hard to see that continuing to provide ERR products to consumers is going to hurt Lionel economically in any meaningful way.
"Bottom line is that it's hard to see that continuing to provide ERR products to consumers is going to hurt Lionel economically in any meaningful way." Baseball, to this day never recovered from the strike. It doesn't take much to get people to revolt.
You could make a home brew driver board as long as the R4 or R2LC boards are available. 
Do not use the 100uf choke in this drawing. It was to improve 2 rail performance but is not needed for 3 rail or if using the signal enhancer caps on 2 rail systems.
They can be made in for AC or DC motors.
We sold a version of this board called the MDB board for a while.
rthomps posted:bigdodgetrain posted:BMT-Express posted:bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
then smarty pants who owns them???
the latest I have is;
It went from Cowen to Cohn to General Mills to Kughn to Wellspring to Guggenheim.
I asked days ago for "those in the know" to cite a definitive reference about Lionel's ownership (e.g., WSJ, Forbes).
Crickets.
you two don't know much about PRIVATE companies do you!
bigdodgetrain posted:rthomps posted:bigdodgetrain posted:BMT-Express posted:bigdodgetrain posted:GregR posted:Does anyone happen to have names and email contact information for the investor(s) who own Lionel? I wish to send emails to advocate my position on current Lionel leadership.
Guggenheim no longer owns Lionel.
You are barking at the moon.
then smarty pants who owns them???
the latest I have is;
It went from Cowen to Cohn to General Mills to Kughn to Wellspring to Guggenheim.
I asked days ago for "those in the know" to cite a definitive reference about Lionel's ownership (e.g., WSJ, Forbes).
Crickets.
you two don't know much about PRIVATE companies do you!
The market demand seems obvious here. Now we need some entrepreneur EE’s to reverse engineer this board.
Carl Tuveson posted:You could make a home brew driver board as long as the R4 or R2LC boards are available.
Do not use the 100uf choke in this drawing. It was to improve 2 rail performance but is not needed for 3 rail or if using the signal enhancer caps on 2 rail systems.
... snip...
They can be made in for AC or DC motors.We sold a version of this board called the MDB board for a while.
While that's interesting Carl, the big benefit of the ERR stuff is the fact that it had excellent cruise control! The Lionel DCDR boards are a dime a dozen, I have half a dozen of them in my parts box if I wanted to go that way.
GHD posted:The market demand seems obvious here. Now we need some entrepreneur EE’s to reverse engineer this board.
And he better have a lawyer to deal with Lionel's lawyers. 
John, isn’t this stuff around long enough that any patents would have expired? Time for new improvements anyway. Go for it!
Robbie posted:Patrick1544 posted: "Does anyone know if ERR is still filling orders? I have one in this past Saturday. I'm not getting any emails that its been refused by ERR."
Patrick, I called ERR this morning and I was able to talk with Ken. He kindly suggested the components I needed to do an upgrade on one of my engines for command and sound. I placed my order via paypal while conversing with him. I was told my order was secured and he still had enough to fill my order. Ken did mention that he was really busy with lots of orders over the weekend. I would think orders placed over the weekend before mine will shipped.
Ken is extremely busy filling all the orders, but very gracious in taking my call. The ERR operations are moving to North Carolina. Hope this helps
Robbie
Thanks for the info and for getting a call to Ken. I know he's quite busy especially since this announcement became a reality. I have a weekend order in there too. I'll then expect it to be filled in two weeks time. Regards.
I do t know how obvious the market demand is. In order for it to be a good venture there has to be money in it. I can see a job for somebody for a while but then what? What do you do after you spend a bunch of money to buy the line and license from Lionel, then order the inventory then sell the boards. Running some rough numbers in my head, I can’t really make it work in today’s hobby climate especially since the two big customers are buying direct from Lionel.
Im more concerned with the repair and upgrade of non Lionel TMCC items that need a full blown install for customers who do not have the where-with-all or skill set to perform such tasks. Older TAS operates 3rd Rail and Atlas locos may be doomed. Possibly an MTH upgrade may fit the bill. I wish MTH would make it possible to set the gear ratio and chuff rate in the sound file for non MTH locos to operate correctly.
Im going to wait n see how this plays out and who does what. In the mean time, summer is coming, go outside and play
Matt Makens posted:I do t know how obvious the market demand is. In order for it to be a good venture there has to be money in it. I can see a job for somebody for a while but then what? What do you do after you spend a bunch of money to buy the line and license from Lionel, then order the inventory then sell the boards. Running some rough numbers in my head, I can’t really make it work in today’s hobby climate especially since the two big customers are buying direct from Lionel.
Im more concerned with the repair and upgrade of non Lionel TMCC items that need a full blown install for customers who do not have the where-with-all or skill set to perform such tasks. Older TAS operates 3rd Rail and Atlas locos may be doomed. Possibly an MTH upgrade may fit the bill. I wish MTH would make it possible to set the gear ratio and chuff rate in the sound file for non MTH locos to operate correctly.
Im going to wait n see how this plays out and who does what. In the mean time, summer is coming, go outside and play
Question! Then why sell spare parts? Think, that is a big money maker? It's called they wouldn't sell anything...
