Traction Tire Frustrations

Some of the traction tires I’ve had were so poorly deaigned that I had to order a first generation Lionel UP 4006 traction tire for my Lionmaster Locos because they were not measured correctly and tires kept shredding off.  In fact my Lionmaster A tires are so small they look like the traction tires for an MTH Railking Galloping Goose.

Traction tires should be tight, if they're too loose, they'll peel right off almost immediately.  If you have to stretch them too much, I suspect they may be compromised as well.

They should be tight, and if correctly fitted, will last a long time. 

They should NOT be loose, if they are, they are trash...replace them.

If they sit for long periods of time in a dry climate, they will need replaced often. You will see they crack like an old tire that has been sitting in the sun for years.

If you pull a train that's too heavy or on a heavy grade, they will stretch....replace them.

People forget that they are still a "rubber tire", a fraction of the size of "rubber tire" on your car/truck/rv/trailer.

What happens to your vehicle or trailer when you abuse your tires, OR put the wrong size/type on for what you are doing with your vehicle.

It's 99% common sense when it comes to traction tires....nothing scientific about it. 

I'm new to replacing traction tires and tend to agree that snug is better than loose.

In my experience, traction tires for diesels seem to last longer than those for steam engines. 

Another variable that may affect how long the tires last is how heavy a load the engine pulls. Tires will spin off or break faster if the steam engine is pulling many  heavy postwar operating cars.

Arnold

Two small dabs of superglue on the outer edge will keep them on for a long time. 

SIRT posted:

Two small dabs of superglue on the outer edge will keep them on for a long time. 

Sounds like a good idea but what do you use to remove the super glue when you have to replace the tire?

I use air gaps in Ross track to isolate power blocks. I've always suspected this increases the wear on rubber traction tires.

Jan

RickM46 posted:

SIRT posted:

Two small dabs of superglue on the outer edge will keep them on for a long time. 

Sounds like a good idea but what do you use to remove the super glue when you have to replace the tire?

I was thinking of the same question, Rick. Also, is there any risk of damaging the train by applying the superglue? And how precisely is the superglue applied to avoid such possible damage? Do you apply a tiny bit on the outside of the tire on the edge? If so, do you apply it that way in more than 1 place?

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

RickM46 posted:

SIRT posted:

Two small dabs of superglue on the outer edge will keep them on for a long time. 

Sounds like a good idea but what do you use to remove the super glue when you have to replace the tire?

I was thinking of the same question, Rick. Also, is there any risk of damaging the train by applying the superglue? And how precisely is the superglue applied to avoid such possible damage? Do you apply a tiny bit on the outside of the tire on the edge? If so, do you apply it that way in more than 1 place?

 

Use the water-thin CA glue and the point of the applicator, capillary action will draw the CA around the whole circumference.

While super glues have excellent tensile strength, they have very poor shear strength and will chip off of wheels very easily, especially if you run the loco in a cradle upside down and use an awl or small screwdriver as a scraping tool while the wheels are turning.

I suggest The Final Solution.  If you have MTH Premier diesels, wheel 'n' axle sets can be changed out.  Either replace all with scale sets or replace only the rubber tired sets with hi-rail sets.  If you get wheelslip, add more units and pour in more smoke juice.

I happen to like Rapid Transit's "final solution."  As long as grades are modest, rubber tires are a nuisance.  How I wish the manufacturers designed their trains so that the grooved wheels could be easily replaced with smooth steel.  Unfortunately, almost every good-performing modern era loco with a quality "can" motor also has the darn rubber tires.  And no good way to change out the wheelsets!  Even if you wanted to try pulling and pressing on new wheels (difficult), the wheels aren't readily available as parts.  You would have to cannibalize the non-grooved front wheels from another chassis, and those are often only available by trading in a damaged chassis or buying another identical loco.  Grrr...

What really aggravates me is that the manufacturers know better:  When MTH began making steam locos in HO scale, all the chassis had a "bottom plate" with driving wheels and axles removable as a set.  They even included a non-rubber tired axle in the box!  The same is true of the American Models S-gauge 4-6-2 when it was in production.  Only us dummies in O gauge keep buying these "toy train style" chassis, most of which are under-geared, with no provision to change gear ratios, nor exchange out the grooved wheels for smooth ones.  What is it going to take for the manufacturers AND BUYING PUBLIC to wise up and give us a real choice??  Really frustrated about this, the first manufacturer to retool gets my check!

I do not like traction tires! I also wish there was a easy way to change out the grooved wheels for regular solid wheel sets! My future layout will not have any grades to speak of. I've thought about over time going through the pain and trouble of changing out grooved wheel sets on some of my favorite locomotives and install solid wheels if possible.

Would be nice if they still offered you an option of Magne-traction, or just the option of solid steel wheels. I love my Dads postwar locomotives equipped with Magne-traction. When we were kids, we would sometimes marry up multiple units and see how many cars could be pulled up the two steep grades on our Dads layout ... fun times!

Rusty

Would that both Lionel and Atlas O followed MTH's lead and provided easy means of replacing grooved rubber tired wheel 'n' axle sets.  I bought an Atlas O RS-3 then had to buy two additional trucks in order to scrounge solid wheel sets to replace the grooved ones.

My only disappointment with MTH is that, to the best of my knowledge, of their switch engines only their ALCo S-2 is in the Premier line and, therefore, the only switcher on which wheels 'n' axle sets can be replaced easily.  As for the locomotives I covet that are only offered in RailKing configurations, I've taken to buying the dummy versions and then replacing the trucks 'n' guts with those from a Premier equivalent on which I've replaced the grooved wheels with solid.

Anyone not yet sold on "3RS" should watch Rich Batista's video, "Its All About The Trains":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zmrqcV0OxU&t=

If your layout can't support fixed pilots with greater than 72" curves, so be it.  Just replacing the claws with Kadees enhanced with Mario's coupler pockets and shims makes a world of difference.  Laidoffsick has several excellent videos on YouTube showing every aspect of coupler replacement.

Phil, a tight fit is the way to go.  Roll the tire onto the wheel.  Do not stretch like a rubber band.   They do not return to shape like a rubber band.  Do not use glue and stay about 100 miles from that bullfrog _ _ _ _.  Replace a tire with a tire.   The hot set up for Lionel diesel locomotives is the MTH tire.  Also stay 100 miles from the super glue.  The correct tire rolled on dry will last for many years.  I have done a few and suggest you follow what I said.

If you have a tire fall off, do not put it back on.  Replace it and do it right.

I had a guy ail me an engine from the west coast stating he wanted the tires replaced among other situations.  The tires were set in super glue and I refuse to spend any time fixing his super mistake.  If I knew up front about the mess he created, I would not have him send the engine.   I sent it back.

I tried Bullfrog Snot once a few years ago.  WOW, what a PITA!  I don't know about other people, but that's sure not a solution for me!   I agree with Marty, the less you have to stretch the tire to slip it on, the better it will stay there.

Phil. Follow Marty’s recommendations. I have had very few problems with traction tires following this advise. Just like batteries and wick material traction tires are an inexpensive maintenance part.  People spend thousands of dollars on their trains and cheap out on parts that are only a few bucks! 

Personally I try to avoid traction tires altogether

I'm doing my darndest to follow Clem's line of thought. The traction tires are great . . . until they fail. Then I discard them and carry on.

No replacement. 

So far, it's working well. 

Maybe I'll eventually run into an engine that just has to have the silly things . . . but not so far. 

I have 2% grades and run fairly lengthy trains. I like double headers though! 

You guys are making me rethink my large layout envy.  My layout is 15 X 16 feet with no grades.  Practicality limits my train lengths to no more than ten cars.

In the 28 years since I re-entered the hobby; I can count on one hand the number of traction tires I have had to replace on my MPC and modern era Lionel; Williams and MTH engines.  And I run trains at least six days each week throughout the year.

Maybe bigger really isn’t better when it comes to the traction tire issue.  🤔

Curt

Curt, if they are installed right, they will last a very long time.

Who or where is the best place to purchase traction tires. I need a bunch.

 MTH  Do a search for the MTH traction tire chart on the forum.  I have thrown it out many times as have others.

Marty,

Thanks for the info

Seems the new traction tires are more like a vinyl material than rubber. Maybe some day I'll pick up some tubing in various diameters and slice a few circles. Been meaning to visit a plumbing supply house with a few sample tires to see if there are same size rubber washers. Should not have to jump through hoops (ha ha) because mfgs deside not to stock replacement parts.

By the way...thank you MTH .

MTH can source parts anywhere they choose to...that's why MTH can supply replacements for everybody else's engines.

Buy the tires and done.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Buy the tires and done.

So say we all!

Keep extra tires in a airtight container and in the refrigerator so they don't dry out.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Buy the tires and done.

Marty, 

So I just order directly from MTH website? 

I don't get it.  Why have traction tires in the first place ?   Lionel solved the traction issue by coming up with Magne-Traction almost seventy years ago.  And if Magne-Traction isn't quite enough, the manufacturers can simply add weight.  They know how to do that also.  

Seems like the dark ages where knowledge was lost or suppressed.  Maybe we need a renaissance in the model train building business.

Dan Padova posted:

I don't get it.  Why have traction tires in the first place ?   Lionel solved the traction issue by coming up with Magne-Traction almost seventy years ago...

And then developed traction tires for the line 56 years ago.

MagneTraction won't work on Atlas track.

Dan Padova posted:

I don't get it.  Why have traction tires in the first place ?   Lionel solved the traction issue by coming up with Magne-Traction almost seventy years ago.  And if Magne-Traction isn't quite enough, the manufacturers can simply add weight.  They know how to do that also.  

Seems like the dark ages where knowledge was lost or suppressed.  Maybe we need a renaissance in the model train building business.

Dan, I think Lionel has the patent on Magnetraction, so other manufacturers cannot use it.  

I believe trains with Traction tires have more pulling power than those with Magnetraction.

A postwar GG1 is a very heavy engine with  good pulling power. But, if it also has Magnetraction, it has even more.

Magne-Traction on my 68 year old locos is useless.  The magnets lose strength. I can only get my 1954 #624 (PS2 by the way) to pull about 3-4 cars before it starts slipping.

Back around 1991, I bought 3 Weaver locos with traction tires.  Those tires are still on with no problems, even though I have grades and run long trains.  I have youngsters, maybe only 10 or so years old, on which tires fail.

Magne-Traction ?  I never thought much of it.   Traction tires do the job very well.  This can go back and forth forever.  

Some of my Lionel engines from the early 1950s still have good Magnetraction. I think keeping the engines always on tubular track helps preserve the Magnetraction.

I just use 4-1 heat shrink tubing (ebay) and a pair of scissors to cut them.  I size them from an original MTH tire.  They don't have to be perfect, just in the groove, not too wide and sticking over.  Then a little heat to activate the adhesive.  I only have MTH traction tires to compare them to, but the heat shrink seems to have just a little less traction than the MTH tires.  Not enough to make a difference.  And they last a looooong time.  BTW; I like to run long consists (20 cars+) at higher speeds.  That doesn't usually throw tires; but running them that way on 31" curves sure does.  So the tighter curves get slower speeds, shorter consists and shorter locomotives.

 Williams had magnetraction until they switched to traction tires.

I am always amazed that folks can build pretty complex layouts and spend a small fortune on locomotives and get still find a way to complain about either the difficulty of installing a traction tire (easy after you do it a few times) or the cost of the original part.  Any time I have received a new loco, they come with extra tires.  Put a sticky note in a small ziploc bag (to identify the locomotive) and keep the tires in a parts bin.  I use a baseball card organizer.  When the locomotive needs a tire, and it is rare but it happens, go to the organizer, grab the tire and install it.  Also, pick yourself up a foam engine cradle so you can put the loco in it and work properly.  I think half the time guys are trying to do this stuff with the locomotive cradled in their arm or on a table.  That leads to bad results and whining here.  Using crazy glue, bullfrog snot, or any other similarly half- you know what approach will lead to problems and more complaining when the CA turns the tire to cement and you have to now scrape it off.  Bad move.

If after buying a cradle and practicing a few times you still cannot install a tire, find a good hobby shop and pay them.  Please don’t come here and complain about nonsense.  Too much whining on this forum lately.  I know that sounds obnoxious but it is my observation.  Is anyone actually running trains on a layout or do folks just whine worrying about future of the hobby, york’s decline, Lionel quality, the lack of future potential upgrades from electric railroad, etc?

Waddy, that is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of.    I advise people not to do this.  Always replace a tire with a tire.   Do the job right.