What is the best speaker to use in locos?

Hi list,

What would be the best recommended speakers to replace original MTH ps3 speakers, which I believe are Veco 4 ohm 4 watt, or are these the optimal for MTH engines?  If I remove the plastic baffles in steam tenders will I get a softer volume but deeper bass response due to larger enclosure volume, and same if making a larger hole in diesel engine's chassis above fuel tank to use body as larger enclosure?  I want to try and get a bit deeper bass from my Imperial bigboy.

No, you want the baffle usually. I have had success in brass tenders not using one,the tender itself becomes the baffle. Sounded good, but subjective observation.  MTH does not publish frequency response charts that I know of, so evaluating the Veco speaker is difficult,other than subjective observation.  Veco is just a brand of electronic supplier,manufacturer, made in Taiwan,which does not necessarily make it a bad speaker. They most likely make various qualities.

The best speaker to use, usually is the one with the best frequency response and specs that can be properly installed with a suitable baffle. This really takes engineering and calculation. Pete did a good research job and calculations on the Peerless one discussed earlier. Bass is about frequency response and baffling,difficult with smaller diameter speakers.

Personally I would not rely on MTH as a speaker supplier,they usually buy cheap. I have replaced, or am going to replace most all stock MTH speakers in my engines. However I do not have anything manufactured by them for the last 5 years so I do not know what they have done lately.  I have heard their engines at train shows and feel they still need improvement,sound wise.

Dale H

Thanks DaleH, much appreciated, please let us know once you've done some speaker upgrades in your MTH engines as to what you've used and what you think of your results.

If anyone on the list has done any upgrades on newer ps2 and even ps3 engines and if it's worth upgrading a ps3 engine speaker, let us know, would be very interesting.

Can anyone tell me if substituting an 8ohm/0.5w speaker for the 4ohm/0.5w speaker in a 3v PS-2 unit would damage the board?

Hi Britrailer,

Just my 1$ worth, I don't think 8 ohms will damage the 3V board, but you may get a bit less audio volume output due to higher resistance, unless of course the speaker is more efficient than the original.  I believe the PS2 and PS3 boards may not like the opposite - say a 2 Ohm speaker.

I established that Madisound is able to sell me and ship to me their 4 Ohm full range 2" speakers, they have a paper cone one for around $14 and then better ones for $19 and $24.

I'm not sure which of those will work best in MTH engines, steam vs diesel, and weather using the diesel fuel tank as standard enclosure and using the same plastic baffle, will work best, not too clued up on speakers resonant frequencies and baffle sizes, I'm hoping a basic speaker transfer might improve sound even if a bit of fitting and sizing work is needed, will it be worth my while firstly purchasing a couple of these speakers, and can I expect some sort of sound improvement over a MTH PS3 engine?

Dale,  I find very little difference in any manufactures construction of the engines. You are implying how the engine is made or designed is the contributor to sound quality.  A Lionel or Atlas Diesel using Lionel TMCC still has the speaker in the tank and covered in a Mother board with plenty of stuff above it.

Sound quality for our engines is really predicated on the Audio component design and the reproduction of the sounds.  Lionel has this down with the RailSound approach.  Of course it is an independent system and you need things like mechanical cherry switches for chuff.  MTH is an integrated approach and smoke and chuff are synchronized with sounds electronically.

The engines are scale proportion and Lionel boards are larger in volume then the PS-2 system, so how is the MTH design of the engine the problem?

I am converting a Scale Atlas GP-35 with TMCC/RS.  The Lionel  mother board and system are so large they span motor to motor with no room for a smoke unit.  When I install the PS-2 board I use half the space and can install a smoke unit.

Regardless of what you say, you do always seem to bash MTH.  You may be right about sound quality, but you are off the mark for the reason.

Please explain to me the specific difference in a MTH speaker and the Lionel or Atlas standard ones used in the RS3/4 engines.  I am seeing an expensive speaker in either manufacture's engines.  I contend the difference in quality is in the independent RS board and separate Power Supply.

Right or wrong, MTH was confined early on with limited memory that had be used for the operating system and all of it's features and the sound file.

What really would be interesting is a merger of the technologies.  G

Its seems to me a few years ago when this discussion came up someone said that MTH eliminated some of the lower frequencies because there were no speakers that would fit that could reproduce them. This was part of a thread about using large bass speakers under the layout and transmitting audio over the air to a remote amplifier (Bluetooth, FM radio, etc). Even if you had a larger driver capable of these low bass sounds you would still be missing them. I have upgraded a few MTH engines with what appeared to be a better driver (bigger magnet, rubber surround, plastic cone) and yet didn't hear much improvement.

PS3 was supposed to bring some improvement to sound quality but not sure that has been born out. 

I keep thinking I will do a frequency analysis on some engines but still looking for that round tuit. I have the other tools needed.

Pete

"Dale,  I find very little difference in any manufactures construction of the engines. You are implying how the engine is made or designed is the contributor to sound quality.  A Lionel or Atlas Diesel using Lionel TMCC still has the speaker in the tank and covered in a Mother board with plenty of stuff above it."

True,but on ABA sets,and I have many The lionel has the Railsounds unit in the Dummy. Lots of room for baffling and a speaker with a good big magnet

"Sound quality for our engines is really predicated on the Audio component design and the reproduction of the sounds.  Lionel has this down with the RailSound approach.  Of course it is an independent system and you need things like mechanical cherry switches for chuff.  MTH is an integrated approach and smoke and chuff are synchronized with sounds electronically."

This can be done with reed switches and magnets and also with a true wireless draw bar,unlike the MTH integrated design. Sound in the MTH design is an after thought,the emphasis is on the control system..

"The engines are scale proportion and Lionel boards are larger in volume then the PS-2 system, so how is the MTH design of the engine the problem?"

Because of design Lionel has manged to get better sound.

"Regardless of what you say, you do always seem to bash MTH.  You may be right about sound quality, but you are off the mark for the reason."

We all have our opinions, I have almost 100 MTH engines and maybe a dozen Lionel ones. Every MTH engine I have has a cheap, junky speaker that cost them maybe 25 cents to put in. My Lionel engines have 1 or 2 fat boys,no comparison at all in sound quality. My Lionel F3 ABAs sound better than any MTH ABA I have,except the ones I converted to Railsounds 4.

"Please explain to me the specific difference in a MTH speaker and the Lionel or Atlas standard ones used in the RS3/4 engines.  I am seeing an expensive speaker in either manufacture's engines.  I contend the difference in quality is in the independent RS board and separate Power Supply."

I cant because no one publishes frequency response charts. Lionel Fat boy ones seem pretty good though compared to the MTH ones I have.

"Right or wrong, MTH was confined early on with limited memory that had be used for the operating system and all of it's features and the sound file.

What really would be interesting is a merger of the technologies.  G"

If I were starting over,I would not use either technology.No need to put a speaker in an engine. With wireless communication, sound could be played through a home type stereo or quad system with Bose 901 speakers,Altecs, etc and could produce a real train sound replication. Bass is largely non directional and higher end sounds could be given direction with proper speaker location. This is not even new technology,wireless speakers were around in the 1940s I think,stereo in the 1950s. Demo records were made of the effect. A ping pong game where the ball went back and forth and Spike Jones singing "Wyatt Earp he makes me burp",one of my favorites.

You would need a positioning detection system which neither system has. Lots of ways to do it,perhaps sensors in the track ties or triangulation.  You would not even need a computer on each train,only transmitters and slave boards. One computer or logic controller would handle the whole job. With an extensive sound library,if you were blindfolded,you could not tell if you were down by the tracks. The system would also be cheaper and universal,not even restricted to gauge or manufacturer. Both systems are antiquated and short sighted IMO. However Lionel has better sound fidelity. I run conventional,the only real universal system.

Dale H

 

 

 

Carl,

Keep us posted on your results when you replace your speaker.  I personally like the Veco speakers.  I replace the other speakers MTH uses with Vecos and get better results.  I the cases where the results are not as good as I hoped, I find that the problem lies with the sound file itself, baffling or the speaker mounting.  I have tried Dales suggested speaker with no great improvements and they cost a bit more.  So far, the Veco has the best fidelity but I am always looking.

Dave

Dave

Veco is just a brand. Do you have a link to the specific speaker model and specs?

Dale H

Hi Dave, thanks for your input on the Veco speakers, real interesting.

I was told by an MTH dealer that PS3 engines come standard with these Veco speakers as they found they got better results with them, so I think I shouldn't be too fussy yet with the sound, as I don't own any ps2 engines, as I'm new to O gauge.

I just found my Bigboy a bit thinner in the bass compared to my NYC Hudson which has exactly the same 4 watt 4 Ohm Veco speaker, in the same plastic baffle, but in a slightly smaller tender, and that Hudson actually sounds quite bassy, whereby the Bigboy actually is about 80% of the bass volume, so not bad, but bit thin sounding in the chuffs, and at high volumes the whistle can sound like a constipated donkey.

I have tried the bigboy without the baffle, using the tender as the "enclosure" and found the bass the same, but a slight drop in the level.

I'd also like to try and get a bit more bass output on my SD70ace, but then again, although I never heard a real SD70ace in real life, as I don't live in the U.S., I didn't hear much deep diesel rumble on a real SD70ace on Youtube, and that's through a decent stereo. 

I think the MTH ps3 engines are varying, from engine to engine, their Railking Scale RS-1 which is on my order list is one of the best sounding old-timer first gen diesels I've heard.

My opinion, but since I'm only hearing these engines via youtube, is that many of Lionel's engines have a lot of bass on their steamers and diesels, but MTH seems to have more accurate recordings of the original engines.

Maybe with later ps3 files MTH will make better use of their ps3 sound system and Veco speakers, I will thus not rush into buying more expensive speakers, unless I can find nice ones cheaper locally, then I will just play around and post back results.

Dale,

I will check when I get to the shop.

Dave

Dale,  The magnets on the MTH speakers are far stronger and bigger than the magnets on the common Lionel speakers.  Sure the fatboy are nicer.

So the reason that sounds are different isn't because one manufacture is cheaper then the other, or their engineers are not good.  It is that they chose different design paths and features to emphasize. Those are the constraint that effect the product.

Lionel early on and still in many ways is short on control features.  A $1300 J with RS 5.0 can control headlights and smoke, but not markers, number boards, MARS lights etc...  Smoke is only on when the chuff is engaged.  In neutral no smoke.

Sure you can add magnets and reed switches, but isn't that a little ridiculous for a $1300 engine to change the chuff rate?

But the sounds are awesome, so rich and loud.  These are issues we have to face.

Believe it or not, MTH would tell you the different speakers used were selected to optimize the sound reproduction for the specific engine.  How well the initial sound recording were done, and the electrical components used to electronically reproduce them drive these issue.  Lionel uses a 4 board system (5 if you count the mother board)  with 1 for controls and 2 for sound.  MTH uses a 1 piece board for sound and control, no mother board.  There in lies most of you differences in sound quality.  IMHO G

G

You kind of made my point. The MTH design paints them into a corner as far as sound fidelity. 

Being a conventional operator I care mostly about sound fidelity.

"Believe it or not, MTH would tell you the different speakers used were selected to optimize the sound reproduction for the specific engine.  How well the initial sound recording were done, and the electrical components used to electronically reproduce them drive these issue."

If they do they did not execute it very well. They select a speaker that will fit after all the other stuff is added and then consider price of the speaker used. All my locos even those with large tenders they just put in the cheapest thing they could find.

Here is the speaker used (click on link) in all the PS2 MTH locos I own  diesel,steam whatever

www.jcstudiosinc.com/BlogShowT...=621&categoryId=

I will look at the Veco speaker MTH sells and hopefully get specs on it. Engineering is about numbers and calculations. But MTH is just a middle man.  Most likely I can get something better,cheaper from a private supplier.

The title of the post here is "What is the best speaker to use in locos" not "what is the best speaker to use that MTH supplies"

I pretty much skeptical about what they say at MTH, especially in the electronics field. I had a long discussion on the Forum here about their ITAD for example. Very poor design to do a simple task..

Dale H

No, I though your point was MTH mechanical design issues and add on???? constrained audio product and they were being cheap. 

My point is that they emphasized controls with integrated sound.  That may have limited the quality of what is produced in the audio.

A MTH speaker in a Lionel and the Lionel may sound just as good or maybe better.  A Lionel speaker in a MTH won't make it better.

Just seems like axe grinding to me.  Hard to believe you kept buying poorly designed product you did not like from a company you think is cheap and not trust worthy.

Why not buy product from the other companies that are perfect.

The point I think that is well made by a few is that you are better off enclosing the current speakers and making sure they are in good condition (no holes, or metallic debris in the cone area.  Using a super speaker when the amplifier and the data are not at the same level may be a poor use of money.  G

Sorry to interject here Dale, but you're not really telling the whole story.

As unfortunate as your hospitalization was (I remember you telling us that several years ago), but in response to the zero-help reference how exactly is it MTH's fault that you did not run your engines for over 3 years, in which they would have long run of warranty as a result? 

I explicitly recall from those early comments from a few years ago, your real beef was not that MTH refused or was unable to help, but actually that you were upset that you had to pay for the needed repairs & shipping since they were long out of warranty.  Apparently you were expecting MTH to make a lone exception to "extend" the warranties on your horde of engines after your return from your 3-year absence and repair and handle the shipping for your problem engines for free.  While that would be nice in an ideal world, it's hardly realistic.

John

MTH was no help because they could have replaced shells with defective paint jobs. They  had no replacement shells and offered no resolution. To me this is poor quality,not a warranty issue. 

MTH was no help because they would not provide any schematics, even simple socket location, information all proprietary. No good anyway because early PS2 boards do not come apart. Being a retired technician and having sometimes repaired PC boards for a living I found this appalling. 

Anyway I was really responding to Gs question as to why I continued to accumulate so many engines with problems. They came while I was seriously ill. Upon opening they had some defects in quality.  Whether in or out of warranty they still had factory defects. I did not continue buying their engines after poor quality was discovered.

I never said they should repair engines out of warranty but they should have made good on the shells and paint.

They were also zero help as far as solutions to battery issues with PS1. That solution ,the BCR was provided by a 3rd party.  I do not want to get into the whole issue of PS1 scrambling,but the MTH response to this issue was less than stellar  and then they did something only after many people swacked. Again,I just answered Gs question. 

Getting back to the speaker issues MTh hopefully is improving their sound,and if they do it is only because customers demand it and complain. Remain silent and you will continue to get crappy products.

Dale H

Okay Dale, question: Were those units with defective paint jobs part of that group of engines that went out of warranty?

If you're using the word quality in relation to product, no replacement shells is not poor quality, it's, well, not having replacement shells available.  You could say that lack of spare shells is poor planning, but that has little to do with product quality.   The normal purpose for keeping extra shells in stock when they have them is for active warranty-related repairs or replacements.   Otherwise you can very well be out of luck and have to salvage from another from the secondary market.  The boiler plates fell off and got lost on my Premier GS-4 a while ago.  I called MTH asking for replacements and was told they didn't have any.  It's long out of warranty anyway so I have to be creative and think of alternate sources.  I'm disappointed that MTH didn't have them in stock, but I'm not resenting them for not having them either.

 Well you sort of answered your own question why they wouldn't provide schematics for their boards:  proprietary.  Right or wrong, they have their own business decisions to not make the schematics widely available.  Most of it probably is that they prefer customers send their defective products to an authorized tech rather than potentially unleashing a bigger Pandora's box of potential problems where amateurs try to do a component-level repair and end up making the problem worse, and further wasting replacement components and boards that could have been used for in- or out-of-warranty work that's fixed properly by a trained and authorized tech in the first place.  Being cocky about your electronic abilities isn't going to help change their position.

 They did not offer the BCR as a solution, true.  But they did end up offering an aftermarket chip reset kit.  But you bellyached about that as well because of the fact that MTH did not offer this to customers free of charge (again, that free out-of-warranty fix you always hollered about).

I would actually agree that a BCR or the chip reset kit offered free of charge would have been a good PR gesture, but I'm guessing that would not have been cost effective for them to do, especially considering that they can't support older technology indefinitely.  Lionel has not always saved face when a problem has arisen with products either (look at their reproduction WP F unit wing decal fiasco about a decade or so ago for an example, some people probably still feel the sting from that one) so MTH is hardly in a unique position when it comes to falling short on making good on all products or issues.

Dale, you've clearly had bad luck with a situation that was out of your control and therefore no fault of your own.  But the reality is MTH is not at fault for something that happened with your engines that would have likely been identified early on and be addressable if they were run while still under warranty.  And the fact does indeed remain that you feel your issues should have been taken care of as if they were still under warranty and MTH felt otherwise, so you remain bitter about that to this very day.  Your prerogative, of course.  But you yourself admit to not having any practical experience with any of the more modern MTH products either so some of your statements tend to be based on assumptions regarding the quality of the boards/designs.

John

My feelings seem abnormally important to you. G asked a simple question and I answered him honestly. We can go round and round with a verbal contest as I disagree with a lot of your premisies, but that is not why I participate here. MTH has a right to their practices and I have a right to purchase or not.  We all have our opinions but we are off the subject of the post here which is about what is the best speaker to put in an engine.

This is a matter of engineering calculations. The stock speakers in all my MTH engines that I own are substandard and cheap. This is my opinion based on just looking at the speaker and hearing them perform. If we want to have to a discussion about sound fidelity, we have to start with a quality speaker and not a joke or excuse for one. Otherwise we are putting lipstick on a pig. Yes, I stopped buying new MTH engines years ago and I am not purchasing more with hope that they might get it right eventually. You apparently have luck with their products,to each his own. Lets drop it and address the speaker.

I suggest you pull out one of their cheap speakers, then take it to an audio engineer and tell him/her you want to replicate the sounds of a real steam engine with it and see what he or she says after he/she stops laughing.  Then think up some more excuses for MTH so they can placate customers. I say this with no ill will or animosity.

Dale H

Dale,

It's not about being what you call "abnormally important" it's about putting some additional perspective on your past dealings on this forum as you haven't been fully disclosing your experiences now as you did back then.  All people are hearing is your harp on MTH's quality and I felt it was important to bring up the fact that some of your original gripes did in fact have a lot do with MTH not providing fixes for your long out of warranty engines for free as you wanted.

Getting back to the sounds:

I frankly don't care all that much about the sound systems; I care more about prototype accuracy and attention to visual detail.  If I had two engines in front of me and one had a killer sound system in it but with inaccurate prototype details and another with accurate details and a sub-par sound system, I'll take the model with the more accurate details and sub-par sound system. 

And for when I do care about sound systems, I don't like it when attempts are made to pass as approximations of what the prototype sounded like.   If I had two models of the same prototype and one had full robust sounds but didn't really sound like the prototype and the other had less fidelity sounds to it but the sound effects were more accurate, then again I'd take the one with the more accurate sounds.  Lionel's scale Cab-Forward with RS 5.0 which I own has some very impressive sounds to it.  I've heard MTH's scale cab forward too, and it doesn't sound doesn't quite match Lionel's audio fidelity, but the MTH PS2 (and even the early QSI board) sounds are actually much more accurate.  Because of that, I'm actually considering gutting the TMCC/RailSounds out it and replacing it with the MTH PS2 sound.

Dale, I succinctly remember those original posts  you made about your defects and your experiences several years back.  I wish those posts still remained as they would have proven me right, but as it is they aren't there anymore.  I stand by what I originally stated, you can deny it by saying it is anything except MTH not fixing your problems as if they were under warranty all you want and that's fine.  I know by your own original admissions back then to think otherwise.

I've spent over half of my career working in engineering industries, including aerospace.   I know what engineering is.  I also know that companies like MTH are under no obligation whatsoever to provide any schematics for their electronic hardware to the general public if they chose, whether it's because they are trying to protect their intellectual property, because of cost, internal liability, or other reasons.  You can disagree with their decision as that's your prerogative but that doesn't change the fact that they aren't obligated to do so.  And if as an electronics expert that makes you feel jaded, then put your $$$ elsewhere as you've been doing.  But if you feel compelled to tell the story of your past experiences then at least don't engage in half-truths or be selective of what happened as you've been doing more recently.  Then maybe you won't find someone like me who remembers those original stories coming in behind you to fill in some of the blanks you deliberately left out so people have a fuller understanding of what was actually going on.

That's all I'm going to say about it.

The Veco model# is FU414 4ohm 4w.  I have yet to find a speaker that sounds better but I am always open to suggestions.

Dave

Hey David @ Mercer ;

1st of all I appreciate the exact information, which gives choices to

the topic that is listed?  is there a web site or purchase from you and wll they

fit  Williams  SD-90's=--- 

thanks

thanks

David, I didn't find that speaker on the Veco website but did see some promising 8 ohm drivers in 50mm. One is listed with a free air resonance of 190hz and 86db SPL (Sound Pressure Level). For comparison a Digital Dynamics Mega Bass speaker has a free air resonance of 263 hz measured. For those not familiar the lower Fs (free air resonance) the better and the higher the SPL for a given wattage input the better.

I have yet to test either of the Lionel Fatboys but now am motivated to do that.

Terry, the speaker Dave listed is 4 ohm. You would be better using an 8 ohm speaker in your Williams engine unless you converted to PS2.

Pete

Hi Dave, and guys, thanks for all the info.

I wonder if the Veco FU414 is the standard speaker they use in most of the new PS3 engines?

Also came across a bluetooth cheap speaker product which uses a 50 mm 4 Ohm speaker, the product is called a Divoom Bluetune-Solo bluetooth speaker for iphones and stuff, the driver used specs are:

Driver Size: 50mm micro speaker, 4Ohm
Signal-to-noise: 80dB
Frequency response: 60Hz-20 kHz
They claim this little speaker in an enclosure about half the size of a coke can produces good bass for it's size, so wonder how that driver will work in a steamer's tender off the ps3 sound system, wonder if Divoom will sell drivers separately, they would be pretty cheap, and maybe also work.

Carl, that speaker would work assuming you can fit it in your engine. The specs might be misleading though. 60 hz is wildly optimistic. Most 2" drivers fall off two octaves above that. Signal to noise is a function of the amplifier not the speaker so doesn't apply here. It won't hurt to try it though. Give us a report if you do.

Pete

Thanks Pete, will let you know once I firstly figure out if I can improve sound with a "better" speaker, or if MTH will release a "better" sound file.

Dave, I checked the speaker in my MTH ps3 Premier SD70ACE, and the only number it has on it is 50AS04 4 Ohm 4 Watt, so not sure if this is the FU414 or if it's inferior, will be interesting, as it seems as if both my Imperial Bigboy and NYC Hudson ps3 also have this 50AS04 in both of them.

Carl,

If it is a VECO, they might be the same.  They have a much smaller magnet than the other brand MTH uses.

If you do try another brand or model, please keep us posted with your results.

Dave

Dave, sure will do.

If the other brand has a bigger magnet, how do they sound, or is the Veco currently the best sounding speaker MTH are using?

My Veco speaker magnet measures about 22 mm diameter and about 19 mm from front of speaker "basket" to back of magnet.

Dave

I wrote Veco,they said FU 414 is not their part number. Could you please re check the lettering?

Dale H

Some speakers now are using rare earth magnets which can have the same or more magnetic force (gauss) then either alnico or ceramic even though they might be physically smaller. The better speaker manufacturers usually tout that feature though.

Pete

HEY KMK,

I had a pair of those Altec "Voice of the Theater" units once.

They were known as "A-7"'s, and were a combination of Bass-Reflex and Horn Radiator, with a cellular mid-high range horn on top with a crossover of either 800Hz or 500Hz.  I paid extra for the low-crossover 500Hz horn. The woofer's voice coil was a massive 4" in diameter!

Those were great for Theater Organ, or heavy classical material!  These units were used in large movie palaces since the 1930's or 40's.

BAD ORDER HAL