Williams Crown Edition

Crown Edition was just a marketing term used by Williams in the late 80's and 90's as best I can tell.  I believe it was more geared towards Williams own in house designed product as opposed to the Lionel reproductions it made.  Lots of product was released under Crown Edition including the brass locomotives, the 18" scale heavyweights, the aluminum extruded streamliners in both single level and Superliners in both 20" and 16", and most of the almost scale locomotives they produced during that time period.

The Crown Edition was supposed to be a more upscale release by the original owner of Williams Trains(Jerry Williams) and produced during the late 80's and most of the 90's. The diesel engines have 2 D.C. can motors in them and most have a QSI sound system in them. The QSI sound system for diesel engines starts out with a train leaving announcement and has diesel engine sounds, also has horn(just horn sounds for as long as you hold the horn button, no grade crossing). Don't know what the steam engine from the Crown Edition era have as I don't own one.

FYI; the Williams Crown Edition and Williams by Bachmann engines have different gear ratios or speeds so putting 2 together from different times(WBB and W. C. E.) may spell motor burn-out for long term use. Check engine speeds before putting 2 different time frame Williams engines together, put the 2 engines on the same track(separate from each other-uncoupled) and watch how they trail each other.

Lee Fritz

Dan, before I converted all my steamers to BPRC (battery power, remote control), all my Williams Crown Edition brass engines had PS2 installed and ran and sounded great.

I now have 5: 2 USRA 2-8-2s, 2 USRA 4-6-2s, and 1 N&W J 4-8-4, all great running engines.

The detail is not that of some of the finer brass you see, but there's enough to make them look very nice.  Good thing is they're also easy to modify.

The original motor in the 4-8-4 had a slightly bent shaft and still ran good, but I replaced it after about a year.  It's heavy, 14+ pounds with the 36oz. lead weight that came in it.

All of mine need a minimum of 072 curves.

I've 2-railed mine (still use the hi-rail wheels, simply gutted them and installed BPRC and removed the center rollers) and plan on converting my layout to Micro-Engineering 2-rail code 148 track soon (but keeping the hi-rail wheels for now).

The ONLY thing you need to be prepared for is changing the rubber tires as they're all probably dry-rotted.  I made a cheat sheet a couple weeks ago for all my engines.

I measured the wheels on each loco and tried to match them up with known manufacturers (or MTH) P/Ns.  I haven't bought any spare tires yet, but plan on stocking up on a few IF the MTH tires fit.  I think I'm going to find the MTH are too wide and will need to be trimmed down (xacto blade while running the engine upside down in a cradle).

Here's my tire sheet, hope it all shows on the screen:

I have:

#1- A set of 3 Williams Crown Edition Alco Diesel units (powered  A, dummy A, & dummy B). Each is about 16” long plus the couplers (Erie Lackawanna),

#2-A Williams J-Class 4-8-4 steam locomotive and tender (B&O Royal Blue),

#3-A Williams F-7 A-A powered and dummy locomotive set (PRR Tuscan), and

#4-A set of 6 different Williams PRR Tuscan passenger cars each about 14” long plus couplers (Philadelphia, Manhattan, Carlisle, Madison, Irvington, and Baggage).

What is the minimum radius curved track that I can use on #1, #2, #3 (the box states it can navigate O 27 track, but I want to pull #4, and those cars are long)?

I am fairly well covered on my Lionel units in terms of required radii, but all these Williams locomotives have never been out of their boxes before! To be honest, I’m not certain how I acquired them! And the Crown Edition and the B&O J-Class steamer are much bigger than any of my Lionel units.

Will Lionel transformers work with the Williams units? And will Lionel O gauge cars match the couplers on the Williams units?

Jayman,

The F7s should be able to run on O-27 track. Not certain about the other equipment. Depending on which Alcos you have, they may or may not. I suspect the J 4-8-4 is brass. If that is the case, then you need O-72.  Not certain about the passenger cars; need more information. Please post some pictures and include the boxes.

Chris

LVHR

Chris,

The passenger cars are not in boxes. The Williams locomotives are. I will take a pics of one of the Crown Edition Alco Diesel units since they’re all the same dimensions and the J-Class steamer & tender. I’ll also take pics of the labels on the boxes. I’ll take a pic of one of 14” long passenger cars. I’ll include an extended measuring tape for the lengths in the pics.

Thanks for the quick reply.

Ed

@Jayman68 posted:

Chris,

I’ll also take pics of the labels on the boxes.

Ed

You might not find labels on the boxes.  While Williams labeled most of their boxes with a product number there are always a good number out there that don't have such labeling on them.  Nothing.  You also have to add to that the fact that it's product numbering system changed at least three or four times from day one until Bachmann bought it.

Because of these issues it can be difficult to determine exactly what you have.  Your pictures will be helpful in getting accurate feedback from us.

Mike

I run the same PRR Tuscan cars that you have on 036 curves with no problem. They do over hang the track more than my shorter cars but they run fine

In 1984 your choice was Lionel pumping out repops of earlier production engines.  They were doing nothing they had not done before.  Mike was still five years(1989) away from the scale items he would be producing for Lionel (T-1, Mohawk, Rail Chief cars, etc.).  When Williams began producing Scale Brass engines in 1984 it was like all of us that had grown up with Lionel had died and gone to heaven.  In 'toy' trains we had never seen anything like the 'Crown' Edition engines.  In 1988 when the Challenger appeared it was absolute disbelief that this could have been accomplished for toy train guys.

Maybe today, 38 years later, the Crown Edition engines seem simple and dated but if you had been there then, Jerry Williams was the man of the hour.  Everything that followed, the Weaver Brass engines and scale passenger cars(with Mike's help) the Early Lionel Scale engines (manufactured by Samhungsa thru Mike) and finally in 1993, the MTH Dash 8 can be traced back to the Crown Edition Williams line of engines.

I have a pair of Williams FP45s from when I first started in three rail.  I used to run them around 031 curves without any problem.  They looked a little silly doing it, but they did not derail.  The FP45s are the same size as the PAs.

As others have said, pictures help.  It sounds like your J class in B&O Blue is the PW reproduction version that runs on 031 curves.  The brass scale version is a large locomotive and only came in the prototypical N&W.  You would know if it was the scale version just by how it outsizes your other locomotives. 

Most of the early Williams outside of the brass locomotives of the 80's and early 90's are designed for 031 curves.

Ah yes, Williams Crown Edition. I've had only 2 Williams items, a 5-car Santa Fe aluminum passenger car set that was designated "Crown Edition" on the box, which was really just a set of Lionel reproductions without the car number in the first window of each car like the Lionels had. I believe these were new in the mid-1980s. I mated them with a separately purchased Williams ALCO F set of Santa Fe ABA diesels, but they were not designated as "Crown Edition" and were not brass, but plastic. This was during my conventional only days before I changed out all motive power to command control. The engines were bullet proof though, and could pull out a tree stump.

I'm also a fan of the Crown Edition steamers. I inherited 4 from family, and have since then added at least 2 more, and have had 4 converted to command control.

The one challenge I have is finding traction tires that fit. The Lionel and MTH tires I have tried are too wide for the grooves in the drivers. I'm curious to hear what anyone else has done for tires to fit these locos.

Williams even gave a nod to increasing the level of detail in an after market offering - they made a retainer plate for the driver assemblies that have brake shoes for the drivers.  I know they made them for the 4-4-2, 4-6-2 and 2-8-2 PRR engines - they might have made them for others too.

@BlueComet400 posted:

The one challenge I have is finding traction tires that fit. The Lionel and MTH tires I have tried are too wide for the grooves in the drivers. I'm curious to hear what anyone else has done for tires to fit these locos.

I cut a set down to fit the narrow grooves on one of mine, but that was very time consuming and I lost a couple tires in the process.  It could be nice to be able to somehow automate the process of trimming them.

Greetings, all.

First let me thank all who have responded. I am going to post multiple replies segregated by the items. First up is the Crown Edition Alco B Dummy. The box label states AC-19. The powered Alco A box label is AC-16, and the Alco A Dummy is AC-18. The B Dummy is sitting on 2 10-inch straight FasTrack. It’s approximately 16” long including the couplers.

Next up is the B&O Royal Blue Steam Locomotive and Tender. I only measured the locomotive because it’s pretty obvious that the tender could probably handle O 27 track. The locomotive is about 13” long. As you can see by the label on the box, Bachmann produced this Williams pair (in China).

Finally, the photo of one of the 6 PRR Tuscan cars. Thanks to @terryd73 for the info about your similar cars. The length is about 14.5” and it is 2.75” at its widest.

@Jayman68 posted:

Next up is the B&O Royal Blue Steam Locomotive and Tender. I only measured the locomotive because it’s pretty obvious that the tender could probably handle O 27 track. The locomotive is about 13” long. As you can see by the label on the box, Bachmann produced this Williams pair (in China).

I am not sure about 027 curves, but this is a reproduction of the postwar Lionel N&W J class painted for the B&O.  It is designed to take 031 curves.

This is the scale version Williams imported in 1989.

@GG1 4877

I didn’t mean to imply that the locomotive could handle O 27. I was trying to explain that the reason I didn’t measure the tender was because its length is not remarkable, and, in my estimation, could handle O 27. Of course, that doesn’t matter if the locomotive requires O 31 or even greater radius curved track.

Thank you, Jonathan, for the info on the similar locomotive requiring O 31 track.

So it seems as if the only thing remaining to be “tied down” is the curved track radius requirement for the long Erie Lackawanna Crown Edition set.

The EL engine set is Alco PA, PB, PA, which Alco designed for passenger service (hence the "P" in the designation). The Williams brochure I have says O-31 minimum. I run my PA set on O-72 and larger. It looks a whole lot better going through the curves.

The B&O J is probably limited to O-31 and larger, as Jonathan stated.

The Pennsy passenger cars are reproductions of Lionel's Madison cars.  Again, O-31 and larger.

The brochure states the F7s will run on O-27.

Chris

LVHR

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I cut a set down to fit the narrow grooves on one of mine, but that was very time consuming and I lost a couple tires in the process.  It could be nice to be able to somehow automate the process of trimming them.

John,   Would cutting the tire in half with a pair of hobby scissors work?  Neither of the two new tires would fill the grooves but would that matter?  Respectfully, John in Lansing, ILL

Personally, I've never tried it, but I've heard that Frog Snot works.

Comments?

Chris

LVHR

@rattler21 posted:

John,   Would cutting the tire in half with a pair of hobby scissors work?  Neither of the two new tires would fill the grooves but would that matter?  Respectfully, John in Lansing, ILL

It's best to get it as close to filling the grooves as possible, but even half the tire is better than nothing.  Also, the narrower it is, the weaker it is, so it'll get stretched and dead sooner if it's narrower.

@lehighline, thanks, Chris. I guess I’m going to have to have a wider layout than I envisioned to have room for the O 72 radius track. Otherwise, it looks as if I’m good with O 31.

Thanks again—I appreciate everyone’s comments.

@lehighline posted:

Personally, I've never tried it, but I've heard that Frog Snot works.

Comments?

Chris

LVHR

This is a loaded question for sure! Most people on here will advise against using it. I have tried it on my Williams K4s and have had good results. The choice was to try it or make my K4s a shelf queen, so I figured it was worth a try. If you go slowly and apply it very carefully, I believe it's better than no tire at all, but if tires were available, I'd use them in a heartbeat.

Crown addition hudson with a little detailing.

How do the CE freight cars compare to other scale cars?   -  mth, atlas, Lionel?    Size weight detail etc ?

I don't have any Crown Edition freight cars any more. From what I remember, they were made from the Kusan molds. So think KMT, AMT. They are very close to Lionel's 6464 series box cars, maybe a tad wider. Detail tends to be on the sparse side. Weight is similar to the afore mentioned 6464s.

Chris

LVHR