Williams/Samhongsa brass Mikes - USRA "Chubbies"?

My 1989 Willams brass Southern Mikado is numbered in the 4800 series of the Heavy Mikados. But as noted above it falls short of having the big shoulders of a Ms-4 mike.

Nevertheless a very nice locomotive of 25 years ago.

Interesting. Thanks for taking the time to settle this question once and for all. Now if Lionel would only letter their USRA Heavy for the Milwaukee Road, which purchased 100 of the original 233 USRA engines.

Maybe you could convince Lionel to replace the C&IM with the Milwaukee Road.  C&IM didn't have any USRA Heavy Mikados, only Lights.

Rusty

Many "copies" of the USRA Light 2-8-2 were produced and from what I can tell the "copies" were built based on the design, but not actually exact copies.  The Seaboard had classes Q1 thru Q4 and all were similar to the USRA Mike (Seaboard's USRA Mikes were classed as their Q1).

So maybe the Williams "USRA" was merely a "copy", sounds right so that's what I'm sticking with

Here's theirs:

And here's my Q3 (modified their USRA Mike):

IMO a fine brass model for not a lot of money.  I installed PS2 in mine and it's my best running steam locomotive.

It would, indeed, be better if Lionel concentrated on roads that actually owned USRA Heavy Mikados before wandering off into fantasyland

So true and I've said the same thing, but where would they start?

I'm not sure if they used original erection drawings that it would suffice.  I believe 233 Heavies were built and another 724 copies (according to our friends at Wikipedia).  I also believe that as soon as some of the RRs received their USRA engines they immediately made changes to them, to suit their needs.  A manufacturer would have to pick a specific time frame and state as such on the box to prevent all the armchair modeling comments sure to follow.  Some RRs even bought engines from another RR after the fact.  That means the 1st RR made changes and then the 2nd RR also made changes, ending up with an engine that doesn't resemble the original USRA design.

Unless that manufacturer is someone like 3rd Rail, who takes a common engine (i.e. E7) and makes mods for each RR they're covering.  I don't know if Lionel or MTH could do that on a standard (large) run of engines.  I mean they could, but it would take longer to get them to market and cost more.  They could also put common components (horns, bells, headlights, domes) in a bag inside the box and let the "modeler" put them on as per the RR of his/her choice, but there's not as many buyers willing to do that anymore.

The USRA Heavy Pacific is one I'm confused about.  I think only 20 were built, why would they make something with so little quantity?

All things considered, the C&IM is the only "fantasy road" offered for the Heavy Mike.  After all, they could've tossed UP, SP, Pennsy or Santa Fe on some of them and squeezed out some of the other real owner roads. 

There's still a whole bunch of roads they can do in following production runs.

As far as the USRA Heavy Pacific goes, I think that falls more under the category of "size matters..." than who owned them.

Rusty

As far as the USRA Heavy Pacific goes, I think that falls more under the category of "size matters..." than who owned them.

I think you've got it.  There's quite a few models of engines that have been produced that are unique or used by only one RR.

In the real world, USRA may have used the Light Mikado boiler on the Heavy Pacific, but other details make them look noticeably different.

When Lionel plops a USRA Light Mikado boiler

on a Pacific chassis

It still looks like a USRA Light Pacific. (Lionel/American Flyer models.)

Rusty

A USRA light Pacific would just about round out my steam roster.  Give me a plain boiler, separate domes, piping, headlight, bell, air compressors, and a few other appliances (all painted steam engine black) and I'd be all over it.

Bob - 

Your Seaboard 2-8-2 is great; wanna sell it...? Not really, but sharp, sharp.  

---------

Glad to see that I'm not the only one who gets a kick out of this arcane steam loco stuff.

---------

OK - USRA Light Pacific: has been done by K-line/Weaver (same tooling, different

boxes - I think that the tooling was K-line and they and Weaver did a deal; I have

one and a friend has the other - and I can't remember who has which). So it is

available.

The MTH "Heavy" USRA Pacific isn't really. It's actually more of a Southern

Ps-4, which was kind of a "blend". But it's avery nice loco. I have the GM&O version.

The Samhongsa/Williams brass 4-6-2 is a USRA Heavy. It's gorgeous. There were only

a few built (the real ones, that is) initially - all for the Erie, as I recall - but they were copied later here and there. The SOU Ps-4, again, has much Heavy DNA. I don't have

a list at my fingertips, so I'll not try to recall the copies.

-----

Importantly, what makes a loco a "USRA" - later copy or 1918 production - has far more

to do with dimensions and specifications than obvious visual cues, like pump location,

dome shape, cab type, etc. These things can be, and were, changed without affecting

the performance of the loco. Looks can be deceiving.

--------

Sometimes a road leaves the "showroom" USRA stuff alone. The NYC (proper) had only 2

USRA-design classes: the U3 0-8-0 and the H-6 2-8-2 (Light Mike) - they had scads

of NYC-design Mikes, however. But the NYC never changed the appearance of either

loco to look "Central-ish". The NYC H-6 Light Mike looked pretty much exactly like the

Mobile and Ohio USRA Mikes, for example - USRA Standard.

Bob - 

Your Seaboard 2-8-2 is great; wanna sell it...?

 

Ah, no   That's MY baby now and thanks for the kind words!

Rusty and Southwest:  Once Lionel creates a catalog number for a particular engine, they are going to run it, regardless of errors.  The one option to that is if the entire production run gets scrubbed.  The reason is that once their dealers and distributors start ordering an item, they don't want to change it at all for fear of loosing orders.

Case in point:  When they announced the great Milwaukee Road S-3, they selected two engine numbers, #261 and #267 as an option.  I sat down with Matt Ashba and two other guys from their product department

 and pointed out that #267 in prototype had been converted to an oil burner, fairly early in it's career.  That would have placed an oil tank in the tender and the elimination of the ash pan under the firebox.  After we discussed the error of that model, they asked what I thought they should do and I said the answer was easy:  simply change the number from #267 to #265, another S-3, and actually the only other engine still in existence.  The #265 is alive and well at the Illinois Rwy Museum in Union, IL.

So we concluded our discussion and then when the engine was actually released, what Lionel did was keep the catalog number for the #267 but add a new catalog #265.  They were afraid of loosing orders from dealers who had order the #267 and would not have accepted the #265.

I guess it make sense and I can see that Lionel probably won't change the C&IM to Milwaukee Road for that reason, BUT maybe there's hope that they will add the Milwaukee Road version, (in the 300 series!) if they feel they can sell enough of them, if they add a later flyer or catalog.  They must realize that some of us guys, just won't buy a locomotive unless it meets our approval and that includes the correct railroad identity.

Paul Fischer

The Williams USRA Mike ,is neither representative of Light or Heavy Mikado.It is in fact a USRA "Heavy" pacific boiler mounted on a 2-8-2 chassis.  In real life the USRA Heavy pacifics (all were Erie machines) had the same boilers as USRA light Mikes but  they sat higher in the saddle because of the larger driving wheels ,hence the skyline profile like a "heavy" Mikado on the Williams model deceives because it "looks" like  heavy Mikado but it isn't. The Willams model is therefore bogus as any kind of Mikado. Aristocraft did the same thing in G scale with their B&O based pacific. Stuck the pacific top on a Mikado chassis and called it a USRA Mikado but it certainly wasn't. Sorry if this dissapoints some folks but facts is facts.    

Here’s some facts I obtained from 2 sources:

Model Railroader's Steam Locomotive Cyclopedia:

page 69 - The USRA 2-8-2 Light Mikado was first delivered in 1918, during WWI 625 were built and after the war 1266 copies made.

The same boiler was used on the USRA Heavy Pacific, EXCEPT the firebox (used on the light Pacific). 63" drivers were originally used.

page 73 - The USRA 2-8-2 Heavy Mikado used 63" drivers and the boiler was no longer than the light Mikes, but the diameter swelled from 86" to 96".  233 were built with 957 copies.

page 142 - The USRA 4-6-2 Light Pacific was delivered AFTER WWI, in 1919.  They came with 73" drivers.  81 were built, not sure how many copies.

page 147 - The USRA 4-6-2 Heavy Pacific was also delivered in 1919 and all 20 went to Erie.  The firebox was the same as the Heavy Mikado, but the boiler was that of the Light Mikado. Came with 79" drivers.

Mainline Modeler has some pretty nice drawings of both the USRA Light Mikado and the USRA Light Pacific in 3/16” scale.  I measured them and then measured my Williams 2-8-2:

MM May 1985, USRA Light 2-8-2:

From back of boiler band (at front end of firebox) to front of smokebox – 29’-3”

From back of boiler band (at front end of firebox) to end of cab roof – 17’-9”

Major boiler diameter – 7’-8” (looks like drawing shows outer jacketing)

MM August 1985, USRA Light 4-6-2:

From back of boiler band (at front end of firebox) to front of smokebox – 29’-0”

From back of boiler band (at front end of firebox) to end of cab roof – 17’-9”

Major boiler diameter – 7’-8” (outer jacketing)

Williams/Samhongsa USRA 2-8-2:

From back of boiler band (at front end of firebox) to front of smokebox – 31’-3” (2 scale feet too long, or ½” in 1/48 scale)

From back of boiler band (at front end of firebox) to end of cab roof – 18’-3” (6 scale inches too long or 1/8” in 1/48 scale)

Major boiler diameter – 7’-8” (measured with digital caliper)

OPINION - Other than the Williams boiler being 1/2" too long, it looks pretty good to me when compared to the MM drawings.

Also, the USRA Mikado came first (1918) with the USRA Pacific following in 1919.

Hi Bob, for some reason??? I can't upload relevant prototype photos for comparison, however,Williams used the exact same loco top for their USRA heavy pacifics .If you can find some pictures of the ERIE K5 (original USRA as delivered build format)and compare to your Williams Mikadoyou'll see that they match just about perfectly. Also if you compared the Williams model to an MTH USRA light Mike or Samhongsa Brass light or heavy Mike you'll see where the Williams model falls down.The Williams boiler/cab etc.,mounted on their pacific chassis is fine but not on their 2-8-2 chassis.It just isn't correct. It "looks" at first glance like a USRA "heavy" Mike because of its short smokestack and squat domes but falls down in boiler girth because the USRA heavy Mikes had much fatter boilers. The Williams Mikado is simply a USRA "heavy" pacific top on a Mike Chassis. The important thing for folk to grasp is that USRA "heavy" when realting to pacifics does not mean the same thing when refering to "heavy" Mikes.If you want a proper light Mike buy an MTH or Samhongsa and as far as I'm  aware the only authentic heavy Mikes on the market (2nd hand these days) are Samhongsa ,but these are I think all 2 rail . Incidentally ,Seaboard Airline had some USRA light mike copies which had longer boiler barrels than the standard USRA engines. They were identifiable by the longer space between the back of the cylinders and the first driving wheel than on  normal USRA Mikes.       

The Williams Mikado is simply a USRA "heavy" pacific top

No, the USRA Heavy Pacific (1919) is simply a Williams Mikado (1918) top, which according to the sources I mentioned, is accurate:

page 69 - The USRA 2-8-2 Light Mikado was first delivered in 1918, during WWI 625 were built and after the war 1266 copies made.

 

The same boiler was used on the USRA Heavy Pacific, EXCEPT the firebox

 

The Heavy Mike also had a noticeable change in boiler diameter, the Williams engine doesn't have this drastic change.

I understand the differences in "appliances" and agree that the dome(s) appear to be short (easily fixed on a brass engine).  I also understand that the Q3 was a bit longer than the Q1 (USRA).  Given that, maybe my Williams to Q3 mod ain't so bad after all

The MTH USRA Light Mikado lists for $700, I got my Williams unit for under $200 delivered and upgraded it to PS2 and added some changes, total cost was around $500.  Not sure how accurate the MTH Mike is and dremeling off die-cast parts is something I no longer care to do to make things right.

Hi Bob, I think you are actually saying the same thing as myself ?? However the USRA heavy mikes had wider barrels from front to back. The reason that heavy pacifics and an heavy mikes had the same squat domes was because in the case of the heavy Mike you were dealing with a much fatter boiler taking things up to height.In the case of the heavy pacific you were dealing with a slimmer boiler sitting higher up on bigger drivers.Light Mikados and Heavy Mikados had identicle chassis. I have 3 or 4 (can't remember ??) of these Williams 2-8-2s ,a samhongsa light Mike, and the MTH light Mike and light pacific.Albeit all 2 rail versions. I had done two of the Williams mikes up as L&N heavy Mikes but they just didn't look right sitting next to MTH and Samhongsaso I've used them for other projects. They are great running chassis for the money though.Smooth and quiet.

For the brass-mongers among us, what about acquiring a Heavy Mike boiler from Steveneson Preservation Lines and mating it to a Williams chassis? It appears that you can strip off the sandbox, steam dome and cab from the Williams model and use them on the Stevenson boiler (accounting for different boiler diameters). The chassis is, I think, too long, so some frame alteration is in order. The point being that with some (plenty of) sweat equity you can have your USRA Heavy Mike for considerably less than the new Lionel offering, with appliances etc to match your railroad of choice.