The answer is... it depends.

If you like to do projects and repairs yourself, and if you like your old locomotives, then yes. It can be fun and rewarding to do upgrades.

If you are the type that prefers to pay someone else to repair things and if you want every bell,whistle, feature possible, then buy new locos with the features already built in.

You don't have to jump in with both feet right away. You could upgrade just one loco, maybe your favorite, and see if it plays well with the newer locos. Remember that ERR Cruise control has a nudge feature that allows it to match up with other locos.

Here is a file of a Weaver E8 upgrade to EOB electronics, new fly-wheel equipped motors,  added marker lights, and electro couplers. I also did some small detail parts.  Access the file and click on  Start Slideshow, upper left corner control panel.  

Here's how it was put to me before I did my first one. If your doing it because you like the engine and want to keep it do it If you plan is to sell it in near future don't waste your money as you won't see your return in most cases. ie the Weaver I have up for sale That I put tmcc and railsound in 

Weaver EMD SD40-2 Dieselwith rail sounds and tmcc in it I have about $130 in parts that doesn't could what I paid for the engine when I got it. 

I have converted like 5 or six so far don't have a regret on any of them 

As one that had an ABA recently upgraded. I can say the only reason I did is because it was a gift. Otherwise I would have sold it, and bought an upgraded version for lot less. It also comes to having someone do it, add labor and shipping cost. Pretty close if you can do it yourself. Am I satisfied, Yes. Would I do it again, No.

I plan on doing some of mine.  It helps that I got them cheap because they came with issues, which I have since solved.  But when I do the upgrade, I also plan on adding some of my own features, the kind you won't get in a new one.  My problem is I can't decide on which sound set to use.

I asked the same question some time ago and the majority leaned no. Since then I have bought a few more Legacy locos and my conventional stuff almost never gets run and my TMCC stuff sits as well. I for one love low speed operation. The Legacy is so smooth in my eyes!

Good Luck whatever you decide!

The Dash 8 has AC motors so you won't have cruise, but you can MU them and they will run good together.

Bill

Over $200 per engine will get you to TMCC but not Legacy.

It is like upgrading an old car or computer when it would be better to buy a new one. 

Buy new engines and either sell your old engines or convert them to dummy engines.

A Legacy CSX Dash 8 might be too old to be covered by Lionel warranty. You should be able to get a similar looking CSX Dash 9 or a new CSX ES44AC.

Well, the ERR TMCC add-on is $69.95 plus installation (without sound upgrade), and a new CSX ES44AC will run about $450.00, so there are a number of factors at play, depending on what you want. That CSX engine you have is a smaller, non-scale version. The later TMCC and Legacy versions of a similar engine are going to be larger as well as more detailed; you'd have to determine if they will be able to operate successfully on your layout. They will operate better and look better on larger layouts with larger diameter curves. Of course, there are many other, smaller Legacy engines available as well. While it may be cost-effective to upgrade with TMCC and RailSounds in some cases, you would probably enjoy the newer engines with DC motors, cruise control, and TMCC or Legacy control. It comes at a price, of course, which is - for most folks - the starting point. You might consider the LionChief Plus line of locomotives, too - very smooth operation with cruise control and more reasonably priced than the full scale engines Lionel has.

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my thread.  It certainly sounds like there are many other folks who have faced the same decision.

I have about 5 Legacy engines and about the same number of TMCC engines (also have MTH PS2 and PS3 engines).  My layout is still under construction.  There will be 3 mainlines.  One will have O-84 curves, one will be O-84/O-72, and the third will be O-72.  So, I can run the big engines.

If I try to do the upgrades myself, they will never get done....just being honest with myself.   If I pay to have them upgraded, that will be quite a bit of money invested in TMCC engines with so-so details and fewer features that today's Legacy engines.

So, for those of you who run conventional, watch the For Sale forum.  I'll be putting a lot of stuff up for sale.

If I was ok spending more money on the hobby, I'd just buy the newer stuff because it's great. But I'm cheap and have a lot of fun tinkering when I have the time. So, I think you're making the right decision for your situation.

I asked this same question a few years ago and decided it wasn't worth it. However, ERR recently put the cruise commander lite on sale and that made it cost acceptable. I had some old diesels lying around that I probably should have sold or never bought that were upgraded for a pretty small price. No sound, which I find I miss, but not sure if I want to spend another $80 to add that.

The upgrades were pretty easy. The locos run great. There is the risk in some of the bigger ones that a short might cook the electronics but that has been covered in other posts (you can search PTC and cruise commander lite). 

Another take on the question: what are you going to do with them? I have only a small home layout, so much of my running is done on a club layout/display, where TMCC makes for more operating opportunities. I had a lot of conventional locomotives, but the Family Chief Executive Officer was adamantly against  "getting more trains" because of lack of room. However, the CEO did see it could be of value to "improve" the old ones.

So, I've had the following locomotives upgraded to TMCC: 8801 Blue Comet, both a Lionel and K Line GG1, Lionel UP F3, Williams F7, two Williams Genesis units, and a  Lionel C&NW FM. All have had "a new lease on life" and brought me even more enjoyment.

Okay, now I have a question, but first some background.  I've been mostly a conventional operator.  I did get a TMCC command set about 2 years ago since I had gotten a total of 3 TMCC locomotives (4 in the house if you count my son's.), I figured it was time to try the command thing out.  It was nice and all, my son enjoyed it, but after a while I just went back to conventional.  Now all of the TMCC locomotives in the house do not have any kind of cruse, and don't run that great at slow speeds.  Flash forward to end of last year and I got my 1st Legacy locomotive and command set, the VL BB (Yes, I jumped in big.).  I love the thing.  I've never had a locomotive creep so slow and run so smooth.  It doesn't slow down on the far side of the loop from the power drop like everything else I own.

Now I've been told I can add ERR cruse to my TMCC locomotives, and I plan to upgrade 3 GP38-2s I have that are conventional runners to ERR TMCC boards.  Will these upgraded locomotives be able to creep like my Legacy locomotive?  If not, will it be even half as good?  I guess my understanding has been that cruse is what allows a locomotive to not only run at the same speed around your layout, but also allowed better low speed, aka creeping.  Am I wrong?

Cruise will make them run very nicely at slow speeds.  I've equipped so many with cruise for me and others that I've truly lost count.  If cruise will fit, it goes in.

Note that the ERR cruise control will ONLY work for DC motored locomotives, no cruise with AC motors.  I predict you'll be very happy with the ERR Cruise Commander performance.

If your TMCC locomotives are DC motored, you can add the ERR Cruise Commander M, which is a product for modular TMCC electronics without cruise.  It's a very easy installation and gives you excellent cruise control for those as well.

Well, the locomotives I want to upgrade are all DC motored locomotives.  The couple AC motored oldies I have I'll leave as conventional and let the kids run them around on the carpet loop.  So this is good to know.  Thanks John.

I will say the Cruise is not like Legacy slow speed. There is a difference.  But they are better than no cruise.  G

I'll concede that point, IMO the Legacy cruise is the top of the heap.  MTH well, but at very low speeds, it's more jerky where I can run most of my Lionel Legacy stuff on speed step 1 at a snails pace and have smooth running.

I put ERR cruise very close to MTH, I actually do get pretty good low speed performance with ERR cruise control.

Out of curiosity, what speed is speed step 1 for legacy as compared to MTH at lets say 3 SMPH.  Is it the same, or does step 1 equate to 1SMPH.

I have test many MTH engines that are pretty smooth at 2 and certainly by 3 SMPH.  At 1 or 2 on some models, you can see the motor start and stop trying to maintain that set speed.

So is it an apples to apples comparison, or did Lionel just go with a step 1 that insured constant motor rotation but sacrifice the 1-2 SMPH type speed.

I am just asking, I don't know the answer.  It would be a nice test with that SMPH meter discussed in another thread.  G

Well, speed step one on my Legacy Genset equates to about 1/2" a second, you have to look twice to see if it's moving at all.  I also have many MTH locomotives that are running fine at 3 MPH, but I've never seen one run smoothly at 1 MPH.  I just did a test on a first generation Legacy GP-7, it went 10" in 17 seconds on speed step 1, that's roughly 2 scale MPH.  That's about what I get from the MTH, but probably close to half of my MTH locomotives won't run smoothly at 2 scale MPH.

I actually don't understand why the MTH has a problem at the lower speeds, from all I see the gear ratios are similar to the Legacy stuff.  Since both have positive feedback on the motor RPM, one would think they'd have similar characteristics.

Interesting, the Legacy drives I have seen (trucks on diesels) are a superior design.  MTH still using the older worm set up.  Of course big difference in price point on some of these.

I heard MTH was working on the PWM process/program so maybe there is improvement ahead.  But the Lionel gearing is pretty smooth.  G

One of the last TAS upgrades before they went out of business.  Older Weaver U25B that was less than $100.  The Radiophone antenna is Bowser with addition brass wire.

That is what the rivet counters notice, most of our MTH runs best 5mph and above. Then again, the RR isn't making any money at those speeds!

I believe I've seen mentioned in some MTH literature 5 scale MPH as the low end for smooth operation.  I can't find where I saw that now...

From what the guys here say, the ERR 100 speed step is very good, and with these diesels you will not have to worry about the tender connection or chuff/smoke synchronization. We have some Proto 1 units and the P2/P3 versions have worse sounds according to guests who own them. I'd make them into TMCC/ERR if we ever converted them into command control to loose the MTH cord(s).

I've been quite happy with both diesel and steam ERR conversions.  They may not be quite Legacy speed control, but they're very good.

John, you know [I know you do] you can change the wiring on those can motors and slow it down.  Just lose top end speed.  We probably run them too fast anyway.  I have purchased a nice modern diesel with blown PS1 board.  Replaced it with a ERR Cruise and Sound.  Had to change the lighting.  Cheaper than a new one.  Runs great. 

I keep thinking about converting a couple of my engines to command control using ERR products.  I have a 3rd Rail Northern with QSI sound that I want to start with.  

The only thing that keeps me from doing it is that I am not confident that I will be successful.  I don't want to spends hours and end up with toasted circuit boards.  

I am experienced installing DCC in HO engines.  I don't find that easy but it is achievable. 

Nearly everyone who has done it says it is "fairly" easy.  Does that mean it is easy for the experienced technician or for a person who has never done this?

Joe

Joe, I believe you will have little difficulty installing the ERR boards.  First off, the wires are all a lot bigger than HO, a big bonus!

In the simplest form, the Cruise Commander just needs four wires, power, wheels, and two motor leads.  Connect an antenna to the antenna jack and away you go.  The other end has a handful of connections for lights, couplers, and smoke, very simple.

The RS Commander for sound plugs into the Cruise Commander and speaker.  For chuffing, the way most of us do it is with magnets on a wheel and a reed switch.  You feed that switch to either the Cruise Commander chuff input or the RS Commander chuff inputs.

Jump in, the water's fine.

I think every O Gauger should upgrade a diesel at least.  It's cool tearing it down to the engine only and building it back up to TMCC with sounds.  Like bringing an engine to life.  Dr. Frankenstein lurks in the hearts of all men.  It may not be the world's greatest investment, but if you have a killer engine that you want run TMCC with I say it's worth a shot.  It's a fun project. 

Ok you have convinced me to upgrade my Erie Lackawanna Set  Who is the Best at doing this, that I can send it to?  I am an over the Road Truck Driver, so My weekends and time off are limited  Recommendations Please Gentleman

The CO said i can upgrade but buy no more Engines for a year ...   LOL

Ugh - here I go again. So called 'AC-motors' are in fact universal motors, they can run on AC or DC, some times called Pull-more motors, Lionel's trademarked name. So called 'DC-motors' here on the forum are permanent magnet motors, although can motor isn't a bad name either.

I upgraded some 1990's Lionel SD40s with universal motors, I eventually ended up selling them. Conversion to TMCC was an improvement, but still had issues with trying to get them to run slow so I can hear my wife kevitching (why?). Even the horizontal motor PW F3's make more noise than I would prefer.

In my opinion, converting engines with universal motors, or AC motors, is not worth it.

I recently bought some ERR Cruise Lite upgrades, of which one I plan to install on a K-Line inter-urban, once I figure out how to solve the cruddy center roller problem. That engine has a small permanent magnet motor mounted in the trucks. So apparently I think it is worth it to convert engines with permanent magnet motors.

Vince, instead of buying kits for all the engines, just get one. See whats involved and how long it will take. You might be surprised how easy it is. ERRs instructions are first rate. You can download the manual from their website before you buy. The first one will take the longest time. Subsequent ones will take 1/2 to 2/3rds as long.

Pete

!st one I'd try is Boxcar Bill here on the forums.  gunrunnerjohn and GGG also do it I believe.

See my post on the CC-Lite in that exact set.  You'll want to protect the boards against motor stalls, I learned that when the first board went up in smoke!   I now use a PTC to protect the board from overcurrent.

IMO, RailChief plus is the way of the future. When it becomes available as an upgrade I will buy it. By offering a simple system with the remote, and the engine you are ready to run. The question is will this ever be offered as an upgrade or not?

I would suggest at doing at least one conversion to try it out. It really is easy and quite fun. No, most of the older stuff does not have the details but then I think they have an appeal of their own. My first install was on an old Williams PA and it was just the command board.

Runs great.

I decided to convert an old F series MPC era dual pullmor engine. I really enjoyed doing that one also and I got pretty good low speed response from the converted engine. No, they will not be Legacy but they have their own charm.

Besides the spare parts you pull might end up being a useful repair for something else. I just this week used that basically new MPC e-unit to replace a very tired 1949 vintage e-unit on a NYC 2333. I now can take my time with rebuilding that e-unit for the future.

I second many of the comments posted here.  Installation of ERR modules is the most fun I've had with wires...easier and quicker than one thinks and with great results.

I agree that doing just one first is a good way to start. In fact after doing one, I couldn't wait to do another.  As for MU-ing, the nudge mode works well in making the engines play well together. I matched my two Williams LNE FAs.. very good low speed operation. So JUST DO IT! You won't be sorry. It's like hot rodding your favorite car years ago.  MODEL RAILROADING IS FUN...(I made that up,really).

Conductor Earl