Would you pay more to see Made In The USA

Our economic system depends on finding the cheapest labor.  That only becomes a problem when we run out of poor countries to exploit.  It also depends on growth, and in the end we will have to find some other way for sustainable quiescence.

 

In our lifetimes, global population may hit ten billion (If you are young, 14 Billion) but later on, we will run up against finite resource limits.  We will need a different economic model.

 

Opinion, of course.

 

Not opinion - I always bought domestic automobiles.  The last one is a 2003 Ranger.  That thing has so many inexcusable design flaws that I will henceforth stick to BMW or Toyota.  I feel like a traitor, but I feel victimized by Ford, my used-to-be favorite auto brand.  They even got the turn signals wrong, after sixty years of good turn signals!

I will no longer buy American cars

 

My 1999 Chevy Suburban needed a new engine at 110,000 miles and a new transmission at 135,000 miles

 

My 2004 Suburban is rusting out horribly and a lot of the electrical accessories are failing

 

Our 2009 Jeep Wrangler Sahara at only 40,000 miles is burning oil and has a few other issues.

 

On the other hand my business partner has Toyota Camry 250,000 mile NO issues

 

My cousins has BMW's NO issues

 

Some of our friends have AUDI's with 150,000 miles no issues!!!

 

I am seriously looking to get an AUDI to replace my 2009 Suburban for business

 

What I really would like is the MASERATI Gibley. It has the Number 1 safety record on the road, if I buy a used one coming off a lease its in the same ball park as a Suburban or AUDI and I checked with my insurance it's cheaper than the Suburban to insure!!!

Yes I would pay more. Sad to see my favorite candy bar Mr Goodbar along with other Hershey products are made in Mexico. What they can't make em here. Yeah right.

For us overseas customers I want to keep it off-shore as it makes the product as cheap as possible, there is no way I want to pay 50% more and find my import costs spiral upwards as well.

 

Also, it is very easy for people to say they are prepard to pay more for it to be made in the US bit, but talk is cheap and would they really pay a higher price for something. 

 

If a top line loco currently costs $2,000 would they really be prepared to pay $3,000 for the same item?  I think the order book for that item will be slim and probably get cancelled.

 

A culture has replaced what used to be our country. This culture's leaders and their followers have become too smart for blind patriotism. They need to keep doing what they are doing until they out smart themselves one time too many. They may take the rest of us with them, but we deserve it.

If the trains to be produced in the U.S.A. were to be marginally more expensive I would probably buy them but that would be wishful thinking because the American worker, both Union and Non-Union, would demand a very high wage scale.  As things stand now, and have for many years, they have literally priced themselves out of the market.  Given that scenario I wouldn't buy. 

Additionally, I don't think I will ever purchase another American made automobile.  My wife and I both drive Toyota's and both have in excess of 100,000 mileage and have needed essentially only the required maintenance.  I won't begin to list the sad litany of difficulties I have experienced with 40 years worth of American made cars none of which ever made it over 80,000 miles.  Never again.

"given a level playing field manufacturing stateside is possible." AMC Dave, you are absolutely correct.

 

I would like to think that our OGR Forum is made up of some very competent people. The issue about American made is not a Democrat or Republican Party problem, it is the entire country's problem. We have enough oil within our borders to satisfy our needs for several years to come, but we have allowed foreign powers to buy our oil companies and exploit us at the pump. Until we as the citizenry rise up and demand that our leadership do something about this, it will only get worse.

 

How long would it take the Chinese or any other unfair trading partners of the US to wake up when we stop the super cargo ships at sea and not allow them into our ports. If anybody thinks that we are doing just fine, they need only to take a course in economics 101.

 

Sure, we want to buy our trains as reasonably as possible, but AMC Dave said it very well when he described the need for a level playing field to make this happen for products produced within our shores.

 

Some have said that this is a pretty deep subject for a Train Forum, but fixing this problem is a grass roots issue and that is exactly what we are.

Well put!
Don

OK, I am at a loss as to why foreign companies have explotied your oil and you are paying higher prices at the pumps. Here in Euro zone we are paying about three times what you are paying, now that is exploitation!!!!

 

When you have to pay the equivalent of $9.5 a gallon then you have the right to moan.

 

Keeping this train orientated, I bet Lionel have some very cute bean counters employed and it is there job to make sure they make the product at the cheapest price so they can maximise profit for either share holders or the owners. They don't care where it is made as long as the numbers match for those concerned.

 

Of course, the answer for those that want it made in the USA is to buy it out and run it yourself, then you might find that the numbers won't match and you will end up off-shoring it yourself.

I plan to continue buying orange and lime marmalade made in Scotland and England rather than in USA.  Hope that doesn't upset anyone.  It's more expensive, but I think it's higher quality and tastes better.  Your mileage may vary.

On that basis then it seems producing a similar item in the US can be cheaper and of inferior quality, interesting!

 

Hasn't Lionel been making American made box cars? Why aren't people buying those?

Who said that no one is buying them. They are not scale, so they will appeal only to those that favor traditional offerings.

I would pay more for a train that was reliable and made well, regardless of where it was manufactured.  The problem we have in this country is that American business exists not to produce a good product as in days of yore, but rather it exists to make a profit.  With that paradigm, you can understand why domestic products can be cheaply made and American products manufactured in foreign countries, like China, are also cheap.  It all started when Robert MacNamara was involved with the "bean-counters" at Ford Motor Co. Every time the engineers came up with something innovative, it was squelched by the accountants who would show through cost projections that the innovation would not be profitable in the short term.  That is why Toyota took over the car market here.  They were interested in producing a good car that would sell itself and capture the market.   They figured that profits would take of themselves once they got that market.  How correct they were.

Absolutely spot on, why would you want to buy something by product name knowing it is flawed when you can go elsewhere and get something that meets your expectations?

No.

what does 'No' mean? In what context and posting are you referring to as on it's own it is a meaningless reply.

 

This is the reason that my wife and I drive Toyota and Nissan car.  It will take a lot of convincing to buy an American automobile again.  Just look at the GM ignition switch safety recall problem.  

 

Toy trains are different.  I just don't think that most people will pay more to buy American.  The American consumer, including people on this forum, have voted with their dollars for the least expensive product nearly every time.

 

Joe    

I think it's his answer to the original question of the post.

The reason most American consumer vote their dollars for the least expensive is because they no longer see any relationship between cost and quality.  So why bother paying more if it is all junk?  I purchased an expensive steam iron made in a foreign country for my wife, thinking you get what you pay for.  After a few years, the iron developed a problem and I sent it in for repair.  Imagine my surprise when I received word that parts were no longer available for this model and if I wanted it to be returned to me, I would have to pay shipping charges.  Nobody from the company ever suggested that the model I had was discontinued and had no replacement parts BEFORE I sent it in.  Who is going to pay for a return of an item that is non-functional and unrepairable anyway?  My wife made a keen observation: she said that she could have purchased three or four cheaper steam irons for what I paid for the expensive one.  If the cheaper ones broke down after the warranty, she could simply buy another cheaper one, and so on.  This is what we have come to expect today in all consumer products.  China and America are capable of producing high quality items.  Both countries have shown it in the past.  But neither does so today because it is not profitable.  

Yes, that would make sense but it would be helpful if he let every one else into what he possibly meant.

All you need a little bit of quality control. Don't ship something that is not put together properly or with out all the parts. I agree amercian worker just want to pass the buck, that's not my job.

I meant "no" I wouldn't buy it just because it said "Made in the USA". I thought it was pretty straight forward. I'm not at all unpatriotic but I don't carry it to extremes to prove it.

There was a time when "Milwaukee " made the most rugged and reliable hand drills.
If you could  afford one you bought it and guarded it with your life.
Bridgeport was known for quality milling machines.
Cincinnati made great hydraulic shears, punches and presses.
People bought them because they were quality.

Not because they were made in America.
Woodworkers in the know bought Italian and they were the gold standard for the industry.

At one time "Made in America"  meant quality.
But since it no longer does, what is the point of the question.

Is the question. Are you willing to pay more to support a fellow American.
Besides sounding like some weird welfare program, it is just not going to happen.
Unless a company  can differentiate it self like Cadillac used to be able to do, no one in his right mind would pay more for something of equal or less quality without a real good reason. No one has actually presented one.
This idea that if someone did, would you is not relevant.
Because the don't and you can't.

Imagine in this economy, virturally back in recession; with millions of people out of work (many of them aging Baby Boomers with little prospect of solid future employment, and who make up the largest segment of the model railroad hobby); whose IRAs and 401Ks are tied up in the soon-to-burst stock market; and we're talking about paying 'more' for stuff? Today I got the Atlas email with some of their latest offerings (beautiful stuff for sure). But we're now at $99 for a hopper?  

I bought a new 2014 ford explorer. And I cannot praise it enough. I looked at many other comparable vehicles and nothing came close in price, quality, fuel milage, looks and finish. 

 

I will not buy a GM because they took the bail out as did Chrysler. 

 

I try to buy American when I can but I am not a fanatic about it.

IMO make the product anywhere you need to but the quality better be perfect. 

 

I have no patience for paint blisters or diecast rot on modern high end imported diecast locomotives.  There is no excuse for that with modern tech.  It plagues the diecast model car market as well.  If Lionel locos from the 50's can still look perfect there is really no excuse.

 

But then I had a few Made in Mt. Clemens Lionel items where the paint fell off.  The 1992 AF Northern Pacific Passenger set and New Haven caboose from the same year had this problem.  

 

Imported never saves the consumer money as mentioned earlier.  Take a place like Lowes...they have put most mom and pop hardware stores out of business.  They are cheaper but you get what you pay for...cheap wood trim that splits...fixtures using the name 'Baldwin Brass' that are really diecast metal imports licensing the name.  But the average consumer doesn't know the difference so they can pull it off.

Hmmm....

 

Toyota Link

 

Not everything made or sourced from China is bad, even electronics.

 

In my professional music world, three of the major players in professional gear are Japanese companies.  Moat are over 40 to 50 years old.

 

One of my high end synthesizers has a sub-assembly and a major circuit board made in China.    It's rock solid.  As is the rest of my gear.  Even the Japanese are sourcing things from China.

 

One thing very interesting in the music world.   Many, if not most, of the innovators in the last 20 years are in places like Sweden, Italy, Denmark, and Germany.

 

Steering back to the topic.   It's a VERY difficult subject to clarify.   Others have said it here above; many people in the USA say they would pay more, but when it comes down to buying day, they still look for the best price.  Heck, just look at a Sunday ad section.  Every single retail store trying to one-up each other with discounts, regardless of the product or service.

 

Consumers have the power, but so far we don't exercise it much.  Any company that sells a widget at a certain price, will continue to sell that widget at that certain price, made wherever, as long as WE still buy it.  This is especially true in the hobby/non-necessity world.  More power to them.  We have a choice: buy or don't buy based on whatever criteria we individually have.

 

 

Okay back to playing with my trains

Let's talk about Lionel's new Bigboy. Nearly $ 3000.00 list price for a model train that is going to be obsolete before long. It will be made with the lowest cost electronics, some percentage of the units will be defective, most will not see the next generation of hobbyists, all are made overseas at the lowest possible cost. This shows us that buying Chinese made products at even ridiculous prices is standard practice. Buying "made in the U.S.A" is no longer relevant. We live in a global economy and it's here to stay.

 

Well stated. and all you have to do is realize that Great Britain held our place in the world 150 years ago and look at them now.

 

Gerry

 

One of the things I've noticed over the years is the use of appearance and cosmetics in products to induce the consumer to buy them, rather than an emphasis on the quality of the components to construct the item. Good quality is often not readily apparent upon visual inspection.  The consumer is lead to a cheaper version that is visually appealing.  The train cars and engines today are more visually appealing and detailed.  This catches our eye much like a beautiful woman in a bikini drinking a diet soda commercial that not only catches our interest, but produces a subliminal message of the benefits of drinking diet soda.  We like to see our layouts have the best visual presentation possible, and detailed cars stand out.  When people see layouts with as much detail as possible, they are amazed.  That's why they are advertised that way.  It doesn't matter in the short run whether the  train car will be running a year from now.  It looks good NOW and their train friends will be impressed.  Cosmetics are cheaper than quality components.  You can see this in automobiles where the small (but not cheaply priced) plastic cup holders, curtesy glove boxes, and interior and exterior trim pieces stand out.  But after several years, the plastic hinges break, the fancy trim pieces separate and break off, and we live with it because it is too expensive to repair a cosmetic item that does not impair the functionality of the automobile itself.  Yet we continually are distracted by these non-functional items when we purchase the vehicle in the first place.  There is a lesson in all this for the train manufacturers:  use bikini-clad women running toy trains... (just kidding, folks!!!).

 

Do you mean like this cover from Roco's 2013 new items catalogue? 

 

 

>>>Round-a-bout way of answering the question, but let's forget about fair trade in favor of equal trade. For every dollar we import, the trading partner would have to accept our exports in the same amount. We are so out of touch that we are allowing those who export to us and are making huge bucks off of us to dominate our economy.<<

 

So how does one trade evenly with a country that makes nothing of their own we need but has the ability to assemble American based products cheaper then can be produced here?

And, while doiing it, competes unfairly in the global economy with us by copying the design to replecate it themselves for others.  

Joe 

It is a hard question to answer. If you say, "Yes". What are you agreeing to exactly? And again if you say, "No". Who are you condemning?

 

I would love to have a, "Brand New"set of Std Gauge "Transcontinental Limited" Tinplate cars that would be stamped, Made In USA. Just seeing what a set of these sell for now. I'm afraid of what the cost would be per car. ($700. per car maybe $1000. per car?)

It all comes down to the bottom line, again. 

What is quality? A train that never breaks.
A highly detailed locomotive with all the bells and whistles.

The "quality" train that never breaks:
Clunky rough die cast with metal chunks wrapped with copper, bronze bushings, mechanical e-units, light bulbs that last weeks if not days.

Highly detailed version made to exact scale.
If it was maintained by 1/4 scale people it might run a long time.
Add full scale ham-fisted, butter fingers, lousy track work and bad wiring.
And you still have a fantastic reasonably priced working model that was never produced in the USA in any reasonable quantities.

It is still a "Cadillac". If you want both reliability and detail, buy a Rolls Royce.
Most of us can not.

America also never made high end multi-cylinder motocycles, miniature radios,
Digital cameras and their early calculators with $300. Plus price tags can be had for $12.00.

Quality exists at many levels:

 

There is excellent quality,

 

There is very poor quality.

 

There are infinite levels of quality in-between the above.

 

Quality is determined by the by the processes of design, material, manufacture, support.  Is is not determined by a blanket "Made In (insert location here)."

 

Rusty