Building a Layout In An Unheated Space

Thanks John, that's not a bad idea.  I am using tubular track.  All "O" gauge sectional, meaning standard 10" straights and standard curves.  

Dan---my layout is in my garage which is attached but I do have a suspended unit heater with a thermostat control.  Yes at times temps are in the mid 40's however normally I set the stat at 50 and when I'm out there I move in up to 60. No adverse effects no moisture/sweating but our gas bill is slightly higher but when thats all the room one has we makedo.

Dan how's the humidity in your section of PA.  If it's humid in the summer like it is here in Baltimore you may want to consider a dehumidifier.  Tin plate track doesn't play very well with humidity over the long haul.

Nick, we both know humid the summers can be in and around Philly and Baltimore.  Although I don't see it causing an issue with tinplate track.  I've had the track stored in the garage for twenty-five years without any noticeable effects.  There are days however, when the concrete floor will sweat.  It happens when the weather has been colder and a warm day comes along with rain.  

In an ideal world, I would build the layout indoors, but not having a decent size basement or not being able to get permission from SWMBO to build it in the third bedroom are obstacles.  The latter of which I am working on.  

Dan looks like you're good to go with your track.  BTW how are the cheese steak subs there?

Dan,

Are you planning on keeping your engines and rolling stock in the garage as well ?

If the temps could fall below freezing in the winter, I might be a little concerned about lubrication, especially on start-up after a long period of inactivity.

Also, you mentioned the garage floor sweating under certain weather conditions. Is there any possibility of condensation forming on the track or any of the pieces ?

Rich

We live in the midwest, hot, humid summers and cold winters. We had an old Lionel train set (1982 vintage) and a bunch of tubular track & a few switches in the attic of our old house for about 30 years and it showed no signs of rust or other damage. Train still ran as of 2014, tried it a few months after we moved in 2013. The old garage had a ladder that went up to the attic and the garage floor used to sweat just as you described yours doing.

The stuff was all in a couple of boxes, but I don't see how that would have changed anything? It was still either too hot, too humid, too cold etc. up in the attic as well as in the garage. I was actually pretty surprised it looked just as good as it did when we put it up there, after un-boxing it all after we moved. I was expecting rust and all kinds of bad things that were not there.

Dan,

Is your building insulated from the weather? You may want to add some insulation if it is not insulated that well and that can keep your temperatures under control a little bit more. Also if you have newer windows as that too can keep some of the moisture out of the building. Check the floor condition too as it may need some help or improvement.

I had a shed for tool storage about 20 years ago when I lived in Georgia, not there any more. I insulated the shed to keep the weather out and re-roofed it as well, even fixed or replaced a window to keep the weather out.

Lee Fritz

Cold will not hurt the trains or layout.  And you have heat when you are there. Go for it.

Charlie

For many years I left the layout unheated in Maine - it saw -35F at least once every Winter. I currently heat the layout.

The cold was tough on lubricants, but I never had condensation problems with equipment. I started heating because of wear and tear on scenery; expansion and contraction tends to crack hard shell plaster!

Jan

20 years ago I decided to return to model railroading. The only space available to me was the unfinished attic space above our 2-car detached garage. I added  walls and a ceiling. Insulated all six sides. Installed 2 240v baseboard heat units and 2 window A/C units. The room is comfortable all year. Of course I do not run heat or A/C when the room in empty. There have been no ill effects from this arrangement.

As has been stated above it is important to let the room warm up in the winter before trying to run trains!

I'm facing a similar situation...I have a nice big outdoor space, attached to the house - weather-proof, covered, but over-glazed. Its like a glass box.

Too much clear (plastic roofing) - meaning, it gets hot as Hades in there once the outdoor temp gets over 65.

The heat and light will destroy anything you put out there - fast! Wood...paper...anything with color - forget it!

It's awesome on a sunny Winter, 28 degree day - it will be balmy, and comfortable.

Worthless in the spring and summer because of the heat. But its a huge space - 28X15.

I have to get handle on the hot side - I'm not as concerned about the cold.

More metal panels, more smoke panels, more translucents - fewer clear. Have to lower the thermal dynamic range.

I would never store trains out there - but I think the room can be adjusted to accommodate a layout.

wild mary posted:

Dan looks like you're good to go with your track.  BTW how are the cheese steak subs there?

At one time, a good cheese steak could only be had in South Philly.  Now days everyone and their brother claims to make them.  The best ones are still from Italian restaurants, in my opinion.  Some better than others but all good !

Richie C. posted:

Dan,

Are you planning on keeping your engines and rolling stock in the garage as well ?

If the temps could fall below freezing in the winter, I might be a little concerned about lubrication, especially on start-up after a long period of inactivity.

Also, you mentioned the garage floor sweating under certain weather conditions. Is there any possibility of condensation forming on the track or any of the pieces ?

Rich

 

That was one of my main concerns, lubrication.  Depending on what it would cost, I could leave the heat on and set the thermostat let's say about 45 degrees, then just raise it when I am out there.  

Nothing but the floor sweats.  When I built the garage I wasn't thinking of a day when I would worry about heating it.  So I poured the slab directly on grade with no type of insulation.  If I were building it today, I would install styrofoam sheets under the concrete, plus I would put radiant heat in the slab.  I could run the radiant heat off my house boiler.  I have installed radiant heat throughout most of the house over the past ten years.  What a nice way to live.  No more baseboard convectors to clean and worry about blocking with furniture.  Of course when i was building the house i was merely a young carpenter apprentice with more energy than money.  So I did what I could with the funds available at the time.  

phillyreading posted:

Dan,

Is your building insulated from the weather? You may want to add some insulation if it is not insulated that well and that can keep your temperatures under control a little bit more. Also if you have newer windows as that too can keep some of the moisture out of the building. Check the floor condition too as it may need some help or improvement.

I had a shed for tool storage about 20 years ago when I lived in Georgia, not there any more. I insulated the shed to keep the weather out and re-roofed it as well, even fixed or replaced a window to keep the weather out.

Lee, it's not fully insulated.  I built it as a pole barn, literally.  Used telephone poles from PSE&G that my uncle and grandfather ripped so that I could have one flat side to frame the exterior walls against.  The walls are paneled on the interior with 1x6 T & G roofers.  The ceiling is insulated with 1" Polyisocyanurate sheets that I installed this winter.  So the walls are not insulated like a house would be, just the air space between the exterior sheathing and the T&G panelling.  My theory back then was that since the garage isn't being heated, I didn't want to risk the chance that any insulation would get damp or worse get infested with mice.  

Doug C posted:

20 years ago I decided to return to model railroading. The only space available to me was the unfinished attic space above our 2-car detached garage. I added  walls and a ceiling. Insulated all six sides. Installed 2 240v baseboard heat units and 2 window A/C units. The room is comfortable all year. Of course I do not run heat or A/C when the room in empty. There have been no ill effects from this arrangement.

As has been stated above it is important to let the room warm up in the winter before trying to run trains!

In an ideal world, our youngest daughter will find a mate.  Then the attic above the garage will be mine.  SWMBO said so.....

Roving Sign posted:

I'm facing a similar situation...I have a nice big outdoor space, attached to the house - weather-proof, covered, but over-glazed. Its like a glass box.

Too much clear (plastic roofing) - meaning, it gets hot as Hades in there once the outdoor temp gets over 65.

The heat and light will destroy anything you put out there - fast! Wood...paper...anything with color - forget it!

It's awesome on a sunny Winter, 28 degree day - it will be balmy, and comfortable.

Worthless in the spring and summer because of the heat. But its a huge space - 28X15.

I have to get handle on the hot side - I'm not as concerned about the cold.

More metal panels, more smoke panels, more translucents - fewer clear. Have to lower the thermal dynamic range.

I would never store trains out there - but I think the room can be adjusted to accommodate a layout.

What about shade cloth.  Gardeners use it to shield plants from too much direct sunlight.  It's used extensively in green houses.  

Dan,

My layout is in an unheated attic with no air conditioning.  In CA, however, we don't get the weather extremes that you have in PA.

So far I haven't had any track or equipment problems.  I use Atlas track that does not rust.  I have seen examples of tinplate track that rusted in humid environments.  

I also run outdoors on the G&O garden railroad.  The G&O uses Atlas track and engines are stored in an unheated shed.  We haven't haven't had problems with rust or electronics.  Temperatures can vary from about 32 degrees in the winter to 105 in the summer.  We have had a lot of rain this past winter.  It hasn't affected our equipment or electronics.  

You may want to switch Atlas or another track that will not rust to build your layout.

NH Joe

Dan, the track will probably be fine.  If not, you can polish it up with scotch brite pad, or worst case just replace it.  The engines, rolling stock and accessories to me would be a different story.  Depending on how much metal was in the accessory, I would use quick disconnect connectors under them and move them indoors during periods that I wasn't regularly out at the layout.  I live in south Texas so moisture is never a problem.  The lack of moisture is usually the problem.  But I have visited layouts in other states where a de-humidifier was considered standard equipment.  The 364, 362 and 497 to me would be at risk for some rust.  For the engines and rolling stock, I would definitely utilize those under the bed container store tubs.  

Do the best you can and then when the daughter does move out, you have an excuse to buy all new equipment and move upstairs.  Keep the layout downstairs and build a helix connecting the two layouts.

You gotta be smart, cunning, and plan ahead on these layout strategies.  Grand kids are particularly useful as negotiators for future expansion and new equipment.  A little training with them on correct words to use and a big tear rolling down the cheek and you are set for approval.

Living in the Philly area I had a layout in a unheated, noninsulated garage. All my trains were in that location and they were all legacy or MTH premier for over 6 years without any problems. 

I did have a portable heater that I used in the cold weather. Under 30 degrees the heater was useless. If 80 degrees or higher outside it was just to hot to run trains in the garage. 

The best time to run trains was in the spring and fall. In the late spring and summer temp was 100 degrees or higher and in the winter the temp. Varied between 30--40 degrees and some days in the teens and lower. 

Good luck in whatever you decide.

Roving Sign posted:

I'm facing a similar situation...I have a nice big outdoor space, attached to the house - weather-proof, covered, but over-glazed. Its like a glass box.

Too much clear (plastic roofing) - meaning, it gets hot as Hades in there once the outdoor temp gets over 65.

The heat and light will destroy anything you put out there - fast! Wood...paper...anything with color - forget it!

It's awesome on a sunny Winter, 28 degree day - it will be balmy, and comfortable.

Worthless in the spring and summer because of the heat. But its a huge space - 28X15.

I have to get handle on the hot side - I'm not as concerned about the cold.

More metal panels, more smoke panels, more translucents - fewer clear. Have to lower the thermal dynamic range.

I would never store trains out there - but I think the room can be adjusted to accommodate a layout.

Study greenhouse techniques of opening windows and fans. You should be able to control the heat. Some 3M self-adhesive tinting products will help control the heat also. Fine line between losing the passive heat in the winter and controlling the too hot in the summer.

Roving,

Off topic, but like Carl said, I'd look into using tinted window film as a way to control the sun/heat in the summer and still have high visibility and warmth in the winter.

I had used a company to tint the windows in my cars for many years and contacted them when I moved into a new office with a lot of hot window spots. They installed some high performance window tint and did a great job.

There's a vast array of new window film products out there and they use them in many commercial building applications nowadays, so I'd look for a reputable company in your area that can give you some estimates and samples to try out.