Building an outdoor 3 Rail layout.

Depending how long you plan on keeping it outside, expect it to rust. Good luck. Any photos?

DMASSO posted:

Depending how long you plan on keeping it outside, expect it to rust. Good luck. Any photos?

Photos coming! What my plan was is that I'd choose a certain day, wake up early and set it up. Then keep it out the whole day and pack it up in the evening leaving the roadbed down. My uncle said to spray the track with WD40 but I'm not sure.

These pictures are the rough construction. A large fill was needed to cross the neighbors driveway. Well it's not our property but he allows us to use it to store my uncles boat.

If the paper insulators get damp on the center rail, you can expect shorts. Gargraves trackage makes a stainless steel track and I believe Atlas is brass and is ok. Now we are talking a few bucks.

DMASSO posted:

If the paper insulators get damp on the center rail, you can expect shorts. Gargraves trackage makes a stainless steel track and I believe Atlas is brass and is ok. Now we are talking a few bucks.

How would they get damp? Well let me explain. I plan on ONLY doing this when the outdoor conditions are good enough. Like no threat of rain or anything. I'd check the weather in advance of course before I lay track down. Would the insulators still get damp? If so then I'll have to use Atlas track or Gargraves. Whichever is cheaper.

Additionally would Atlas Nickle silver track be ok? Trainworld sells a lot of it for decent prices.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

DMASSO posted:

If the paper insulators get damp on the center rail, you can expect shorts. Gargraves trackage makes a stainless steel track and I believe Atlas is brass and is ok. Now we are talking a few bucks.

How would they get damp? Well let me explain. I plan on ONLY doing this when the outdoor conditions are good enough. Like no threat of rain or anything. I'd check the weather in advance of course before I lay track down. Would the insulators still get damp? If so then I'll have to use Atlas track or Gargraves. Whichever is cheaper.

How about overnight/early morning dew?

Yeah, I didn't consider that. I'll have to go with Atlas track. 

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Yeah, I didn't consider that. I'll have to go with Atlas track. 

Naturally the solid nickel silver will not be affected by the weather, however the "plastic" ties might be affected by the sun light (UV).

Hot Water posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Yeah, I didn't consider that. I'll have to go with Atlas track. 

Naturally the solid nickel silver will not be affected by the weather, however the "plastic" ties might be affected by the sun light (UV).

You know more than I do. Anything I can do to protect against the UV? And when you say might, take into consideration that the max time it will be outside is 6 or 7 hours.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Hot Water posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Yeah, I didn't consider that. I'll have to go with Atlas track. 

Naturally the solid nickel silver will not be affected by the weather, however the "plastic" ties might be affected by the sun light (UV).

You know more than I do. Anything I can do to protect against the UV? And when you say might, take into consideration that the max time it will be outside is 6 or 7 hours.

To each his own I guess, but it sure seems like a LOT of work to lay that much track, get it all level, get the electrical working, run trains for a little while, then take it all apart again.

Hey it'll be perfect for days when I'm completely bored or have no other plans. 

Also if anyone knows how to make a dogbone with atlas track using 036 curves and switches please let me know. 

Gargraves SS is best to leave outside all the time.....

I know that Gargraves makes a stainless steel track with wood ties, you must request stainless steel when buying Gargraves track. However to be 100% honest I have had some issues with Gargraves switches after several years. Ross Custom switches in stainless steel would be better then Gargraves switches but you will pay more for Ross switches.

Lee

Still I think with price being the key here I will settle on Atlas. Plus I don't live at the shore house year round so it would be foolish for me to leave it outside. As long as I can figure out how much Atlas track I'll need for a medium sized dogbone then I should be fine. I don't think SCARM would work in this case because there's no defined area or board that I'm using.

It might be nice to go with Atlas track, however check the availability of the Atlas brand track before buying a large amount of it. You may have to wait on the Atlas track to be shipped to the USA or you can buy it from a few retailers if they have it in stock.

Lee

phillyreading posted:

It might be nice to go with Atlas track, however check the availability of the Atlas brand track before buying a large amount of it. You may have to wait on the Atlas track to be shipped to the USA or you can buy it from a few retailers if they have it in stock.

Lee

Well it seems that Trainworld has plenty in stock.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

phillyreading posted:

It might be nice to go with Atlas track, however check the availability of the Atlas brand track before buying a large amount of it. You may have to wait on the Atlas track to be shipped to the USA or you can buy it from a few retailers if they have it in stock.

Lee

Well it seems that Trainworld has plenty in stock.

As added information, you might find that the Gargraves stainless steel track would be less expensive than the Atlas product.

So are you going to lay it down and take it up all in the same day? Or are you going to lay it down and leave it down possiblly overnite? If it is the latter, I can understand about the late night early morning dew, but otherwise unless you plan on doing this on very damp winter days no need to go with Atlas or Gargaves or even spray the track with WD40. It will be the same as laying down a carpet layout. Just as long as you pick it up at the end of each day.

ConrailFan posted:

So are you going to lay it down and take it up all in the same day? Or are you going to lay it down and leave it down possiblly overnite? If it is the latter, I can understand about the late night early morning dew, but otherwise unless you plan on doing this on very damp winter days no need to go with Atlas or Gargaves or even spray the track with WD40. It will be the same as laying down a carpet layout. Just as long as you pick it up at the end of each day.

Yeah essentially I figured that I'd lay the layout around 9:00 AM and rip it up around 6:00 or 7:00 in the evening. This is all assuming that conditions are near perfect with no rain in the forcast and no dew. To be honest there are very few mornings in the summer in which we have a lot of dew.

Then I would just go with Lionel Tubular track. It cheaper then Atlas or GG and it's easy to laydown, remove and store. Just like when we were kids. LOL!

New Atlas track is UV protected.  If you look on the underside of the ties you will find it stated on one tie.

Jan

Jan posted:

New Atlas track is UV protected.  If you look on the underside of the ties you will find it stated on one tie.

Jan

Thanks but I think because of the way that I'm going to operate the layout, there will be no need for the Atlas track. Hopefully the tubular will work just fine.

I commend you on your optimism.  Without positive thinking not much would get accomplished in this world.  I would like to offer a different approach however.  The joy in setting up a layout, whether it be indoors or out, cannot be overstated.  That wonderful feeling can be dampened when play time is over.  I believe i am a bit older than you and have been around the block a few times.  

Personally, I would find it a chore to have to dismantle my layout each time I was finished playing.  With "O" gauge track it can be a real PITA, both setting up and dismantling over and over.  

May I suggest "G" scale.  Of course I do not have any clue as to your financial position.  But a "G" scale garden railway can be built for less than you think.  And if the cost of brass track frightens you, consider plastic track.  All of the "G" scale brass track made, by any of the manufacturers is UV resistant.  Most of the plastic track is also, but you would have to verify that with each brand.  

Plastic track you say ?   How will my trains get their power ?   I converted to battery power seven years ago.  There are inexpensive ways along with more costly ways of powering your train using batteries.  Battery power is too broad a topic to cover here.  But that does not mean it is complicated.  

The bottom line on "G" scale trains is that LGB "G" scale trains will operate in the rain.  I don't know about USA Trains or Aristocraft.  Bachmann  large scale will not fare well in the rain.  So your layout can remain outdoors permanently.  My garden railway will be over twenty-five years old this year.  Some of the rolling stock lives outdoors.  the locomotives are either put away or covered at night.    

Can you install the track to cut-out sub-road in sections where it is of a size that you store it? That would make it quick to set up.

Once you have the Lionel O track assembled apply a treatment of phosphoric acid. It will no longer corrode. Home Depot use to sell it as a product called Ospho.

metal workers use it all of the time. I have seen half-sections of antique cars treated with it that have not rusted or corroded in over 18 years.

it's a liquid that you just brush on. The metal is no longer shiny, but will still function fine.

Stick with your plan and see how it all works for you. You know there are other options available.

Moonman posted:

Can you install the track to cut-out sub-road in sections where it is of a size that you store it? That would make it quick to set up.

Once you have the Lionel O track assembled apply a treatment of phosphoric acid. It will no longer corrode. Home Depot use to sell it as a product called Ospho.

metal workers use it all of the time. I have seen half-sections of antique cars treated with it that have not rusted or corroded in over 18 years.

it's a liquid that you just brush on. The metal is no longer shiny, but will still function fine.

Stick with your plan and see how it all works for you. You know there are other options available.

So brushing this liquid on the rails will prevent them from corroding? 

And I didn't consider that storage method. I am going to take measurements with the existing tubular track that I have. I might get 4 or 5 of those 40 inch sections and then fill in the rest with the 10 inch pieces. 

Dan Padova posted:

I commend you on your optimism.  Without positive thinking not much would get accomplished in this world.  I would like to offer a different approach however.  The joy in setting up a layout, whether it be indoors or out, cannot be overstated.  That wonderful feeling can be dampened when play time is over.  I believe i am a bit older than you and have been around the block a few times.  

Personally, I would find it a chore to have to dismantle my layout each time I was finished playing.  With "O" gauge track it can be a real PITA, both setting up and dismantling over and over.  

May I suggest "G" scale.  Of course I do not have any clue as to your financial position.  But a "G" scale garden railway can be built for less than you think.  And if the cost of brass track frightens you, consider plastic track.  All of the "G" scale brass track made, by any of the manufacturers is UV resistant.  Most of the plastic track is also, but you would have to verify that with each brand.  

Plastic track you say ?   How will my trains get their power ?   I converted to battery power seven years ago.  There are inexpensive ways along with more costly ways of powering your train using batteries.  Battery power is too broad a topic to cover here.  But that does not mean it is complicated.  

The bottom line on "G" scale trains is that LGB "G" scale trains will operate in the rain.  I don't know about USA Trains or Aristocraft.  Bachmann  large scale will not fare well in the rain.  So your layout can remain outdoors permanently.  My garden railway will be over twenty-five years old this year.  Some of the rolling stock lives outdoors.  the locomotives are either put away or covered at night.    

To start off thank you for the positive feedback. And yes you have been around the block more than I have. Come to think of it, most people on this forum have way more experience than I do. 

Anyways, I considered G scale but you see I am already doing a small G scale layout in the front of the house. That will most likely be electric and CNJ based as it will go around a blue decorative lighthouse.

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Moonman posted:

Can you install the track to cut-out sub-road in sections where it is of a size that you store it? That would make it quick to set up.

Once you have the Lionel O track assembled apply a treatment of phosphoric acid. It will no longer corrode. Home Depot use to sell it as a product called Ospho.

metal workers use it all of the time. I have seen half-sections of antique cars treated with it that have not rusted or corroded in over 18 years.

it's a liquid that you just brush on. The metal is no longer shiny, but will still function fine.

Stick with your plan and see how it all works for you. You know there are other options available.

So brushing this liquid on the rails will prevent them from corroding? 

And I didn't consider that storage method. I am going to take measurements with the existing tubular track that I have. I might get 4 or 5 of those 40 inch sections and then fill in the rest with the 10 inch pieces. 

it will certainly inhibit any negative effects that dew or moisture will have. it won't be rust proof. Even stainless steel will rust unless one has very expensive alloys of it. Just an insurance to prolong the life of the track an keep it functioning well. CRC 2-26 will also help on the pins. HD has that also.

Klean Strip is the product name - photo attached - check it out on-line

Moonman posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Moonman posted:

Can you install the track to cut-out sub-road in sections where it is of a size that you store it? That would make it quick to set up.

Once you have the Lionel O track assembled apply a treatment of phosphoric acid. It will no longer corrode. Home Depot use to sell it as a product called Ospho.

metal workers use it all of the time. I have seen half-sections of antique cars treated with it that have not rusted or corroded in over 18 years.

it's a liquid that you just brush on. The metal is no longer shiny, but will still function fine.

Stick with your plan and see how it all works for you. You know there are other options available.

So brushing this liquid on the rails will prevent them from corroding? 

And I didn't consider that storage method. I am going to take measurements with the existing tubular track that I have. I might get 4 or 5 of those 40 inch sections and then fill in the rest with the 10 inch pieces. 

it will certainly inhibit any negative effects that dew or moisture will have. it won't be rust proof. Even stainless steel will rust unless one has very expensive alloys of it. Just an insurance to prolong the life of the track an keep it functioning well. CRC 2-26 will also help on the pins. HD has that also.

Klean Strip is the product name - photo attached - check it out on-line

What would I rub it on with? A towel or something? Or just dunk the track in there? And this stuff is safe on switches?

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Moonman posted:

RaritanRiverRailroadFan4 posted:

Moonman posted:

Can you install the track to cut-out sub-road in sections where it is of a size that you store it? That would make it quick to set up.

Once you have the Lionel O track assembled apply a treatment of phosphoric acid. It will no longer corrode. Home Depot use to sell it as a product called Ospho.

metal workers use it all of the time. I have seen half-sections of antique cars treated with it that have not rusted or corroded in over 18 years.

it's a liquid that you just brush on. The metal is no longer shiny, but will still function fine.

Stick with your plan and see how it all works for you. You know there are other options available.

So brushing this liquid on the rails will prevent them from corroding? 

And I didn't consider that storage method. I am going to take measurements with the existing tubular track that I have. I might get 4 or 5 of those 40 inch sections and then fill in the rest with the 10 inch pieces. 

it will certainly inhibit any negative effects that dew or moisture will have. it won't be rust proof. Even stainless steel will rust unless one has very expensive alloys of it. Just an insurance to prolong the life of the track an keep it functioning well. CRC 2-26 will also help on the pins. HD has that also.

Klean Strip is the product name - photo attached - check it out on-line

What would I rub it on with? A towel or something? Or just dunk the track in there? And this stuff is safe on switches?

if you look on the HD site at the product or the product's website, it will describe the application process. Rubber gloves and a rag, basically. can use a chip brush dipped in it. The cheap yellow brushes with a wooden handle.  Definitely use gloves. maybe eye protection for the accidental splash. Not scary, but requires some precaution. I think the HD even has a video. The rag wipe removes any crud or rust already there. Sit it out in the sun to dry. It's a shop or outdoor activity.

I would be cautious on the switches with a careful wipe with a cloth on the rails. I don't know what it does to plastic. Wet is not good for coil motors.

C'mon, you know how to do some homework.

I recommend two types of track, AtlasO, and Peco.  Neither will rust, and their ties are UV resistant. 

A shot of cheap spray paint on the ties will provide an additional barrier against UV, but is not really necessary.  If you were going to weather the rails, I would include painting the ties.

Gargraves ties have a less than stellar reputation when used outdoors.  They are not designed for that.

3 rail is most definatly doable outdoors.  Atlas track is the best for outdoor use IMHO, make sure you have a good stable road bed under it.  Treated wood or some of the new material for decks that looks like wood but isnt is best.   Remember most 3 rail engines have exposed gears and are not UV proof.  I have run my Lionel outdoors but chose the engines I use carefully, older horizontal motor F3's, Berkshires and Turbines have drives that are more enclosed.  The tinplate track set up and tear down is ok for temporary while you aquire enough Atlas track to leave down all the time.   I also have G scale, but it demands much more space if you want to run any larger diesel or steam types.     Mike

Joe you might check out this site for hints and tips for 3 rail outdoors https://www.familygardentrains...o_gauge_outside2.htm

I am doing 2 rail O scale outdoors and there might be some information on my blog that might be helpful as well, here is the link https://oscaleoutdoors.blogspot.com/  Also on my blog there is a listing of helpful sites and some of them are on 3 rail outdoors.

Best Regards

Robert

artfull dodger posted:

3 rail is most definatly doable outdoors.  Atlas track is the best for outdoor use IMHO, make sure you have a good stable road bed under it.  Treated wood or some of the new material for decks that looks like wood but isnt is best.   Remember most 3 rail engines have exposed gears and are not UV proof.  I have run my Lionel outdoors but chose the engines I use carefully, older horizontal motor F3's, Berkshires and Turbines have drives that are more enclosed.  The tinplate track set up and tear down is ok for temporary while you aquire enough Atlas track to leave down all the time.   I also have G scale, but it demands much more space if you want to run any larger diesel or steam types.     Mike

Thanks but actually I didn't plan on running older lionel engines such as Berkshires and Turbines. I was going to run Lionchief mainly. Specifically a Lionchief CNJ camelback and CNJ RS-3.

Thanks to all the people who have commented so far. But basically I need these questions answered.

1. I want to operate the layout in a fashion where I can set it up say at 9:00 in the morning and take it down at 6 or 7 in the evening. I would be using lionel tubular for this. With that time frame I don't think there would be a problem.

2. I want to use Lionchief. As stated in a few comments, the CNJ camelback and CNJ RS-3 are high on my list with the NYSW diesel coming in third followed by the Reading GP-7 coming this summer.

Can LC engines be used? Mind you that the rails will be on ballast for the majority of the line with portions such as the bridge and fill going over cinder blocks and wood.

first off Joe..........way to be industrious!!!   I agree with moonmans' idea of adhering the track to a road bed that you can just quickly lay down and later pick up.

if you can, go ahead and screw long sections......even curved ones, to some inexpensive plywood or boards. 

maybe when you first lay out the track make a sketch of the layout..............put tape around the ends of wires, with a note of where it belongs so you may re-install it quicker instead of just

guessing each time.

that is all I can think of for hints................rots o' ruck!

redjimmy1955 posted:

first off Joe..........way to be industrious!!!   I agree with moonmans' idea of adhering the track to a road bed that you can just quickly lay down and later pick up.

if you can, go ahead and screw long sections......even curved ones, to some inexpensive plywood or boards. 

maybe when you first lay out the track make a sketch of the layout..............put tape around the ends of wires, with a note of where it belongs so you may re-install it quicker instead of just

guessing each time.

that is all I can think of for hints................rots o' ruck!

 

 

 

 

The reason that I can't do that is because the ground is very uneven and the only way to make it even is by building a proper roadbed and placing the rails on top. About 50% is now level. Plus the tracks will go around a tree and the loop that extends past that tree will have to be built up on cinder blocks. I'm also trying to find a way to fit in my O72 curves. So I'll make an update when I get some significant progress done to the roadbed.

joe................I beg to differ a bit on the leveling part..............if you use some stiff boards, you wont have to level ALL of the track......just some sections. Think of "bridging across gaps" or from one screwed down track section to another.........the thickness of the boards would so strong that it wouldn't collapse very easily.  It's not like the fat lady jumping up and down.  Depending on the thickness of the board, it certainly could hold the momentary weight of a train passing along.  you can do this dude!