Building my 1st layout after years of running my trains on the floor.

AEM7S4LYFE,

Based on your plan, looks like you prefer "running" to operating.  Whatever makes you happy is great.  But, with the vertical oval (orange) having two cross-overs on one side, I don't see how you can keep it to a five foot width.  Try putting one cross-over on the other side of the ovals and you might squeeze it into five feet.

Chuck

PRR1950 posted:

AEM7S4LYFE,

Based on your plan, looks like you prefer "running" to operating.  Whatever makes you happy is great.  But, with the vertical oval (orange) having two cross-overs on one side, I don't see how you can keep it to a five foot width.  Try putting one cross-over on the other side of the ovals and you might squeeze it into five feet.

Chuck

Yes I do prefer running to operating due to my allotted space.  As for the orange line, the overhang at the bottom will have a separate table or extension (module) added to the side of the table. The extension will serve as a Philly neighborhood while the main table will be the downtown section. I just created somewhat of a drawing of my modules. 

No complaints, just an observation. The 2 spurs on the blue lines go in opposite directions. Generally, dead-end spurs are serviced by backing cars into them. If you intend to do that, it means the inside train would travel clockwise and the outside train would travel counter-clockwise. Running trains in opposite directions forces you to manage moving between inner/outer tracks, so it can add interest. If it were me though, I'd change the spurs into sidings so you could just pull in, service or park, and then pull straight out.

On the lower spur, I see it comes out of the curve, so it would just be a matter of adding a similar turnout on the other end. Even though it'll be a little shorter, I'd do the same thing on the upper spur by mirroring the turnout there too.

If you have the room for the 2nd table, then you don't really need to make the change Chuck suggested. However, I like his suggestion simply because it would be cleaner looking than the double-crossover you have now and maybe allow more pleasing options for landscaping. It might also let you use #'d turnouts like you did on the Blue lines and lessen/eliminate the "S" curve effect.

DoubleDAZ posted:

No complaints, just an observation. The 2 spurs on the blue lines go in opposite directions. Generally, dead-end spurs are serviced by backing cars into them. If you intend to do that, it means the inside train would travel clockwise and the outside train would travel counter-clockwise. Running trains in opposite directions forces you to manage moving between inner/outer tracks, so it can add interest. If it were me though, I'd change the spurs into sidings so you could just pull in, service or park, and then pull straight out.

On the lower spur, I see it comes out of the curve, so it would just be a matter of adding a similar turnout on the other end. Even though it'll be a little shorter, I'd do the same thing on the upper spur by mirroring the turnout there too.

If you have the room for the 2nd table, then you don't really need to make the change Chuck suggested. However, I like his suggestion simply because it would be cleaner looking than the double-crossover you have now and maybe allow more pleasing options for landscaping. It might also let you use #'d turnouts like you did on the Blue lines and lessen/eliminate the "S" curve effect.

Thank you, I didn't think about the spurs being a dead end and how I would get my trains into their respective sidings. Thanks again for catching that. As for my main line, I am using Atlas #7.5 turnouts. For the lower spur, it would definitely be shorten due to the design of my basement.  The extension will be sitting along side the stairs to lead into the basement while on the larger table, the left half will literally be under the stairs. I would have to cut a section out of my stairs which I have no experience in lol. So the only option for the lower spur to not be a dead end spur is that I relocate the left turn out either to the other side of the layout or have it in the middle of my station.  Which would you prefer? As for the elevated line (orange line) I'm thinking maybe I should invest in a ross double crossover instead of having an "S" curve. Thanks again for the advice, and I look forward to more advice in the future.

So, you're saying you can't do something like this (changes in Red) because of the location of the stairs?

I didn't that the time to reproduce the layout exactly because I couldn't read all the tracks you used and how some were cut. So0 it would be helpful if you posted your SCARM file for us to see the specifics.

I used an O72/O54 curved switch for the lower siding, but I'm not sure that's what you used because it doesn't look like I ended up with as much clearance as you did. Even so, I'm not sure there's enough clearance and after I added the 5'x12' baseboard, it doesn't look like the Blue run will fit the 5' width unless that's not a finite limitation.

I see several cut pieces which should be fairly easy to do. However, it appears that you plan to use Atlas flex track to make O42 curves for the inside oval of the Gold run. I could be wrong, but I think you're going to have some difficulty bending Atlas flex that tight if that's what you intend to do. I have no experience with Atlas flex, but everything I've read here seems to indicate "flex" is somewhat of a misnomer.  I've seen examples of GarGraves flex being bent, but it's not solid rail and bends easier. I've experimented with bending ScaleTrax flex, which is solid rail like Atlas. It takes a fair amount of work and needs to be anchored well to hold the curve. Using templates and over-bending helps.

DoubleDAZ posted:

So, you're saying you can't do something like this (changes in Red) because of the location of the stairs?

I didn't that the time to reproduce the layout exactly because I couldn't read all the tracks you used and how some were cut. So0 it would be helpful if you posted your SCARM file for us to see the specifics.

I used an O72/O54 curved switch for the lower siding, but I'm not sure that's what you used because it doesn't look like I ended up with as much clearance as you did. Even so, I'm not sure there's enough clearance and after I added the 5'x12' baseboard, it doesn't look like the Blue run will fit the 5' width unless that's not a finite limitation.

I see several cut pieces which should be fairly easy to do. However, it appears that you plan to use Atlas flex track to make O42 curves for the inside oval of the Gold run. I could be wrong, but I think you're going to have some difficulty bending Atlas flex that tight if that's what you intend to do. I have no experience with Atlas flex, but everything I've read here seems to indicate "flex" is somewhat of a misnomer.  I've seen examples of GarGraves flex being bent, but it's not solid rail and bends easier. I've experimented with bending ScaleTrax flex, which is solid rail like Atlas. It takes a fair amount of work and needs to be anchored well to hold the curve. Using templates and over-bending helps.

For the siding at the top, adding another switch track will not have any clearance issues. It is the bottom switch that will have clearance issues. and you are correct by saying that the 5' width is not a finite limitation , I used 2x4's for the frame for my table so it actually gave more room to allow the O54 curve. For the orange line, I am using atlas O45 and gargrave O42 curves. I played with Atlas flex track and I am not a fan of it.

Aem7s4lyfe posted:

For the siding at the top, adding another switch track will not have any clearance issues. It is the bottom switch that will have clearance issues. and you are correct by saying that the 5' width is not a finite limitation , I used 2x4's for the frame for my table so it actually gave more room to allow the O54 curve. For the orange line, I am using atlas O45 and gargrave O42 curves. I played with Atlas flex track and I am not a fan of it.

Ok, I get it now. If you complete the upper siding, then you only have to deal with one dead-end spur. That's simple enough to do by backing a train in there for storage so you can pull right out when you want to run it. Obviously you could pull a train in forward and back it out, but IMHO it wouldn't look as appealing while parked, etc.

If you want to keep the upper as a spur for the extra length, then I'd suggest placing the turnout on the left so you'd be backing into both spurs. Personally I wouldn't mind keeping them as they are and running trains in opposite directions while servicing each spur only by backing in with the train that is going in the right direction to do so. Totally up to you.

I had a feeling you were mixing Atlas with GarGraves, but thought I saw something that hinted at flex. Anyway, I'll assume you're doing that because you have some equipment that needs the O42 vs O36 and you want to run it on the Gold line.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Aem7s4lyfe posted:

For the siding at the top, adding another switch track will not have any clearance issues. It is the bottom switch that will have clearance issues. and you are correct by saying that the 5' width is not a finite limitation , I used 2x4's for the frame for my table so it actually gave more room to allow the O54 curve. For the orange line, I am using atlas O45 and gargrave O42 curves. I played with Atlas flex track and I am not a fan of it.

Ok, I get it now. If you complete the upper siding, then you only have to deal with one dead-end spur. That's simple enough to do by backing a train in there for storage so you can pull right out when you want to run it. Obviously you could pull a train in forward and back it out, but IMHO it wouldn't look as appealing while parked, etc.

If you want to keep the upper as a spur for the extra length, then I'd suggest placing the turnout on the left so you'd be backing into both spurs. Personally I wouldn't mind keeping them as they are and running trains in opposite directions while servicing each spur only by backing in with the train that is going in the right direction to do so. Totally up to you.

I had a feeling you were mixing Atlas with GarGraves, but thought I saw something that hinted at flex. Anyway, I'll assume you're doing that because you have some equipment that needs the O42 vs O36 and you want to run it on the Gold line.

Thanks DoubleDAZ for your input, it has opened my eyes to other possibilities for the main line. I will be running my trains on the outside main going counter-clockwise, so backing into the spur would be easy.  For the inside track, the trains will be running clockwise and with your idea of adding an extra switch track, I'll have the option to either pull in or back into the siding.  For the gold line, I preordered the MTH Premier R32 subway set plus the add on cars, and they require a minimum O42 curve. I originally planned to use atlas O36 curves for the inside track for the gold line, but I changed my mind after I ordered the subway set. I figured that with the station stop effects, I'll create an out and back route and allow some prototypical switching between the outside and inside tracks. 

Also, what would you do for the siding at the top of the picture? I am debating whether I should just keep it a  passing siding or make it an industrial siding (goods factory, oil refinery).

Aem7s4lyfe posted:

Thanks DoubleDAZ for your input, it has opened my eyes to other possibilities for the main line. I will be running my trains on the outside main going counter-clockwise, so backing into the spur would be easy.  For the inside track, the trains will be running clockwise and with your idea of adding an extra switch track, I'll have the option to either pull in or back into the siding.  For the gold line, I preordered the MTH Premier R32 subway set plus the add on cars, and they require a minimum O42 curve. I originally planned to use atlas O36 curves for the inside track for the gold line, but I changed my mind after I ordered the subway set. I figured that with the station stop effects, I'll create an out and back route and allow some prototypical switching between the outside and inside tracks. 

 Also, what would you do for the siding at the top of the picture? I am debating whether I should just keep it a  passing siding or make it an industrial siding (goods factory, oil refinery).

Honestly, I have a hard time with urban landscaping, mostly because the space is usually limited, so I'm not the guy to give advice on what to do with the spur/siding. Given the raised Gold level, the dual mains on the Blue level and the Green line, I don't see where you're going to put many buildings other than the passenger terminals. I could see a multi-building distribution center of some sort beneath the Gold line along the spur or maybe even a brewery, like Miller/Coors in Milwaukee, but I don't see an oil refinery with a elevated track running through it. I assume half of the Gold line is going to be elevated track on pylons and the neighborhood extension will be a platform. So any buildings will have be the type where one would expect to see an elevated train, like in Chicago, and an oil refinery just doesn't seem to fit.

I also assume the layout is up against a wall on 2 sides and you intend to have a backdrop or a painted city scene on the walls.

The other thing is that if you make the upper spur a siding, you'll lose some length that will limit the length of trains that will fit. You also won't be able to put a delivery building between the Green and Gold lines on the left, because the turnout will be there. I mentioned Miller/Coors because they have buildings on both sides of a couple of streets as well as elevated train tracks in the area. Some get deliveries while others are just offices, etc.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Aem7s4lyfe posted:

Thanks DoubleDAZ for your input, it has opened my eyes to other possibilities for the main line. I will be running my trains on the outside main going counter-clockwise, so backing into the spur would be easy.  For the inside track, the trains will be running clockwise and with your idea of adding an extra switch track, I'll have the option to either pull in or back into the siding.  For the gold line, I preordered the MTH Premier R32 subway set plus the add on cars, and they require a minimum O42 curve. I originally planned to use atlas O36 curves for the inside track for the gold line, but I changed my mind after I ordered the subway set. I figured that with the station stop effects, I'll create an out and back route and allow some prototypical switching between the outside and inside tracks. 

 Also, what would you do for the siding at the top of the picture? I am debating whether I should just keep it a  passing siding or make it an industrial siding (goods factory, oil refinery).

Honestly, I have a hard time with urban landscaping, mostly because the space is usually limited, so I'm not the guy to give advice on what to do with the spur/siding. Given the raised Gold level, the dual mains on the Blue level and the Green line, I don't see where you're going to put many buildings other than the passenger terminals. I could see a multi-building distribution center of some sort beneath the Gold line along the spur or maybe even a brewery, like Miller/Coors in Milwaukee, but I don't see an oil refinery with a elevated track running through it. I assume half of the Gold line is going to be elevated track on pylons and the neighborhood extension will be a platform. So any buildings will have be the type where one would expect to see an elevated train, like in Chicago, and an oil refinery just doesn't seem to fit.

I also assume the layout is up against a wall on 2 sides and you intend to have a backdrop or a painted city scene on the walls.

The other thing is that if you make the upper spur a siding, you'll lose some length that will limit the length of trains that will fit. You also won't be able to put a delivery building between the Green and Gold lines on the left, because the turnout will be there. I mentioned Miller/Coors because they have buildings on both sides of a couple of streets as well as elevated train tracks in the area. Some get deliveries while others are just offices, etc.

I see what you're saying.  I plan on using ez street for the green lines, so the green lines (a majority of it) will simulate street running (that make at least two parallel streets). I am using two MTH pcc electric street cars with protosound 2.0 and 3.0. I can place a building on each end of the green line loops, directly across from the main station, will be a greyhound bus station. on the back side (upper section), I can place some buildings in between the siding and the green lines. and for the extension, I am just going to use MTH 3 story townhouses because they resemble my childhood neighborhood in north philly.   Thank you again for all of the advice.

Aem7s4lyfe posted:

I see what you're saying.  I plan on using ez street for the green lines, so the green lines (a majority of it) will simulate street running (that make at least two parallel streets). I am using two MTH pcc electric street cars with protosound 2.0 and 3.0. I can place a building on each end of the green line loops, directly across from the main station, will be a greyhound bus station. on the back side (upper section), I can place some buildings in between the siding and the green lines. and for the extension, I am just going to use MTH 3 story townhouses because they resemble my childhood neighborhood in north philly.   Thank you again for all of the advice.

That all sounds good. I could see there were places to set different buildings in and around the Green line for the urban setting. I just couldn't come up with something specific to set along the spur for servicing that would look like it belonged there. There are others here with experience designing/building urban/subway layouts and I don't know why they aren't commenting.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Aem7s4lyfe posted:

I see what you're saying.  I plan on using ez street for the green lines, so the green lines (a majority of it) will simulate street running (that make at least two parallel streets). I am using two MTH pcc electric street cars with protosound 2.0 and 3.0. I can place a building on each end of the green line loops, directly across from the main station, will be a greyhound bus station. on the back side (upper section), I can place some buildings in between the siding and the green lines. and for the extension, I am just going to use MTH 3 story townhouses because they resemble my childhood neighborhood in north philly.   Thank you again for all of the advice.

That all sounds good. I could see there were places to set different buildings in and around the Green line for the urban setting. I just couldn't come up with something specific to set along the spur for servicing that would look like it belonged there. There are others here with experience designing/building urban/subway layouts and I don't know why they aren't commenting.

Thank you DoubleDaz for all of your input.  I've modified the layout some. On the orange line, I tried the Ross double crossover to eliminate the "S" curve and also after looking at different transit crossovers, the Ross double crossover looks more prototypical.  With using the double crossover, I had to change the curve on the outer track from O45 to O54.  For the green line, I am debating whether or not to add a turnout to each end to create an oval. This will allow me to simulate my two trolleys diverging creating two different routes with one serving the industrial (top of the picture) while one will serve just the downtown.  The trolleys that I will be using are MTH PS2 and PS3 PCC electrics with station stops. For the main (blue), I took your advice and created a passing siding with option of adding an industry.  More likely it will be a good warehouse.  Let me know what do you think of the modification.

Aem7s4lyfe posted: 

Thank you DoubleDaz for all of your input.  I've modified the layout some. On the orange line, I tried the Ross double crossover to eliminate the "S" curve and also after looking at different transit crossovers, the Ross double crossover looks more prototypical.  With using the double crossover, I had to change the curve on the outer track from O45 to O54.  For the green line, I am debating whether or not to add a turnout to each end to create an oval. This will allow me to simulate my two trolleys diverging creating two different routes with one serving the industrial (top of the picture) while one will serve just the downtown.  The trolleys that I will be using are MTH PS2 and PS3 PCC electrics with station stops. For the main (blue), I took your advice and created a passing siding with option of adding an industry.  More likely it will be a good warehouse.  Let me know what do you think of the modification.

If your goal is to simulate 2 trolley routes, then I think you should add the link for the Green line. It looks like there's room to have 2 rows of buildings, one row needing freight deliveries along the siding and the other needing passenger service inside the new oval you'd create. You never did say if this layout will be up against a wall. If it isn't, you might consider a divider right there with a freight-oriented scene on the backside facing the siding and an office/shop scene on the front facing the trolley. You could cut or build half-buildings for each side to fit the space.

I like the double-crossover. Is it from Ross?

DoubleDAZ posted:

Aem7s4lyfe posted: 

Thank you DoubleDaz for all of your input.  I've modified the layout some. On the orange line, I tried the Ross double crossover to eliminate the "S" curve and also after looking at different transit crossovers, the Ross double crossover looks more prototypical.  With using the double crossover, I had to change the curve on the outer track from O45 to O54.  For the green line, I am debating whether or not to add a turnout to each end to create an oval. This will allow me to simulate my two trolleys diverging creating two different routes with one serving the industrial (top of the picture) while one will serve just the downtown.  The trolleys that I will be using are MTH PS2 and PS3 PCC electrics with station stops. For the main (blue), I took your advice and created a passing siding with option of adding an industry.  More likely it will be a good warehouse.  Let me know what do you think of the modification.

If your goal is to simulate 2 trolley routes, then I think you should add the link for the Green line. It looks like there's room to have 2 rows of buildings, one row needing freight deliveries along the siding and the other needing passenger service inside the new oval you'd create. You never did say if this layout will be up against a wall. If it isn't, you might consider a divider right there with a freight-oriented scene on the backside facing the siding and an office/shop scene on the front facing the trolley. You could cut or build half-buildings for each side to fit the space.

I like the double-crossover. Is it from Ross?

Gotcha, I will add the link. Yes, with the new design, there will be enough for two rows of buildings. The layout will be up against the wall with a city scene backdrop. And yes the double crossover is a ross double crossover. Thank you again. 

Hi There 

I having watching this posting  since started !  

I hope you will share pictures as you progress through your project layout. ? 

ALL MY layouts have been temporary layouts on carpet or a simple table ! 

I am looking to create a permanent layout myself with a city & street lights ! 

Your ideas are great so far !  Have Fun !  

WRGMILW posted:

Hi There 

I having watching this posting  since started !  

I hope you will share pictures as you progress through your project layout. ? 

ALL MY layouts have been temporary layouts on carpet or a simple table ! 

I am looking to create a permanent layout myself with a city & street lights ! 

Your ideas are great so far !  Have Fun !  

Hi WRGMILW,

Yes, I will be posting pictures as I work on the layout.  I have taken a summer break for some summer vacations. I will resume working on the layout at the end of this month when I return from my family reunion.  Thank you for your feedback, and yes I will share as much information with you as I can. 

You too have fun as well building your permanent layout!!

Finally finished the extension so I can add my switches.  I only have one set at the moment.  Next will be to order the homasote and additional track.

NICE! Good to see you hang out at Nicholas Smith too!