Help diagnosing problem with 3rd Rail engine

Trainbros89 posted:

Hey y'all, I am currently faced with a problem with a 3rd Rail Q-1 and was seeking some assistance. The plastic washer that connects to the drawbar for the tender placement fell out, so I epoxied it. Now, the engine will run on straights, but as soon as it hits a curve, it loses all power. Would what I did with the washer somehow correlate to this problem? If not, what would be causing this and what would solution(s) be? 

Regards,

Greg

www.youtube.com/trainbros89

Since the drawbar does not carry any electrical current, thus the reason for that plastic/insulating washer/bushing, I would suspect that the plug may not be pushed in to the receptacle all the way. Make sure that the multi-wire plug & tether has enough free play in the tender, so that on curves the plug is NOT under stress.

Hot Water posted:

Trainbros89 posted:

Hey y'all, I am currently faced with a problem with a 3rd Rail Q-1 and was seeking some assistance. The plastic washer that connects to the drawbar for the tender placement fell out, so I epoxied it. Now, the engine will run on straights, but as soon as it hits a curve, it loses all power. Would what I did with the washer somehow correlate to this problem? If not, what would be causing this and what would solution(s) be? 

Regards,

Greg

www.youtube.com/trainbros89

Since the drawbar does not carry any electrical current, thus the reason for that plastic/insulating washer/bushing, I would suspect that the plug may not be pushed in to the receptacle all the way. Make sure that the multi-wire plug & tether has enough free play in the tender, so that on curves the plug is NOT under stress.

Hot Water, thanks for your reply. I made sure that the multi-wire plug has enough free play, but the problem still persists. Any idea of what it can be? 

Thanks,

Greg

Well, the insulation in the drawbar is to isolate the tender from the locomotive and frame ground.  The whole tender shell is the TMCC antenna, so if there's continuity to the locomotive frame, the TMCC signal will be lost and the locomotive will stop.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, the insulation in the drawbar is to isolate the tender from the locomotive and frame ground.  The whole tender shell is the TMCC antenna, so if there's continuity to the locomotive frame, the TMCC signal will be lost and the locomotive will stop.

Gunrunnerjohn, thanks for the reply. I do apologize, I should have clarified; I am running it with a Z4000, no form of remote system. The engine is now running intermittently on straight tracks too, but before, the problem occurred only on curved track. 

Regards,

Greg

Probably time to look inside if all the plugs are intact.

Brass adventure. 3rd Rail's products are typically beautiful, but still fall prey to some of the old-school hand-made-piece fussiness, especially when paired with modern electronics. Some are happier in the 2-rail environment than in the 3-rail, especially when curves are encountered.

Just a "notice" that this beautiful and big loco (I want one) may throw you a few curves as time goes on. But, that's part of this kind of product and once you get them - is there are any - fixed, it will be worth it. And you'll get familiar with it.

Trainbros89 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, the insulation in the drawbar is to isolate the tender from the locomotive and frame ground.  The whole tender shell is the TMCC antenna, so if there's continuity to the locomotive frame, the TMCC signal will be lost and the locomotive will stop.

Gunrunnerjohn, thanks for the reply. I do apologize, I should have clarified; I am running it with a Z4000, no form of remote system. The engine is now running intermittently on straight tracks too, but before, the problem occurred only on curved track. 

Regards,

Greg

Not that this is the cause of your trouble... yet, but does the boards inside this engine handle full voltage from the Z4000?

I'm only asking because I fried my Lionel Trackmobile's board until I learned that.

This does sound like a wiring or tether issue so far????

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Probably time to look inside if all the plugs are intact.

I only had time to check the tender, and they all seemed to be intact. I will look at the engine sometime over the weekend. I am curious to see if the washer coming out and me using epoxy to has had any effect. These problems occurred after the washer was put back in.

Regards,

Greg

D500 posted:

Brass adventure. 3rd Rail's products are typically beautiful, but still fall prey to some of the old-school hand-made-piece fussiness, especially when paired with modern electronics. Some are happier in the 2-rail environment than in the 3-rail, especially when curves are encountered.

Just a "notice" that this beautiful and big loco (I want one) may throw you a few curves as time goes on. But, that's part of this kind of product and once you get them - is there are any - fixed, it will be worth it. And you'll get familiar with it.

I agree, 3rd Rail's products are stunning to say the least. My long term goal for this engine was a PS3 upgrade, but I may have to get it done sooner. If I can't diagnose the current problem, hopefully the new electronics would fix it.

Regards,

Greg

Engineer-Joe posted:

Trainbros89 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, the insulation in the drawbar is to isolate the tender from the locomotive and frame ground.  The whole tender shell is the TMCC antenna, so if there's continuity to the locomotive frame, the TMCC signal will be lost and the locomotive will stop.

Gunrunnerjohn, thanks for the reply. I do apologize, I should have clarified; I am running it with a Z4000, no form of remote system. The engine is now running intermittently on straight tracks too, but before, the problem occurred only on curved track. 

Regards,

Greg

Not that this is the cause of your trouble... yet, but does the boards inside this engine handle full voltage from the Z4000?

I'm only asking because I fried my Lionel Trackmobile's board until I learned that.

This does sound like a wiring or tether issue so far????

Engineer-Joe, the engine has run numerous times on the Z4000 without  a problem; it almost seems like an intermittent short, but I could be wrong. I am new to taking engines apart, so this will be a learning experience for me. I do appreciate y'all commenting so far.

Regards,

Greg

I just upgraded a 3rd Rail Q2 to PS/3, and of course we added the MTH smoke unit for good looking smoke.  It got all LED lighting, and looks real nice with a huge plume of smoke coming from the stack.   I'll be sorry to ship it out.

As far as a short, it's more likely an open, usually a short either trips a breaker or cooks something.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I just upgraded a 3rd Rail Q2 to PS/3, and of course we added the MTH smoke unit for good looking smoke.  It got all LED lighting, and looks real nice with a huge plume of smoke coming from the stack.   I'll be sorry to ship it out.

As far as a short, it's more likely an open, usually a short either trips a breaker or cooks something.

Oh man, I am sure that Q2 is a beast . I took the engine apart, checked wires in both the engine and tender and it seemed that all wires were fine, no grounding, cuts, etc. However, something interesting happens. The engine and tender were on the track, but when power applied, nothing happens. When I would ever so slightly lift the engine up, so the rear truck was not touching the rails, the engine would power on .Furthermore, if the engine and tender are on, but I derail the tender so the front wheels are not on the track, it gets power and works fine. This is throwing me for a loop. I really appreciate you answering my questions. 

Regards,

Greg

Something is very odd there.  I'd be looking VERY closely at the wiring that touches the frame.  All indications are something is touching the frame that shouldn't be.

The Q2 was actually fairly easy, it's huge so there's no issue of space, everything fits with room to spare.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Something is very odd there.  I'd be looking VERY closely at the wiring that touches the frame.  All indications are something is touching the frame that shouldn't be.

The Q2 was actually fairly easy, it's huge so there's no issue of space, everything fits with room to spare.

Gotta love the PRR Duplex's   ! Once again, thanks for your reply. Tomorrow, most likely at night, I will look over the engine again. I'll report back tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Greg

Greg, I would contact 3rd Rail for support. Good luck, Scott.

scott5011 posted:

Greg, I would contact 3rd Rail for support. Good luck, Scott.

Scott, I might have to do that. I am going to check the engine out again tonight. If I still can not find the cause of the problem.

Thanks for the comment,

Greg

Trainbros89 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Probably time to look inside if all the plugs are intact.

I only had time to check the tender, and they all seemed to be intact. I will look at the engine sometime over the weekend. I am curious to see if the washer coming out and me using epoxy to has had any effect. These problems occurred after the washer was put back in.

Regards,

Greg

Most of the 3rd Rail locomotive I've had problems, which were TMCC signal related,  with were finally fixed by taking off the tender shell, making sure any places where the paint has been scraped is patched (I use a thin insulating tape over both ends of the frame for instance) and isolate the shell when carefully remounting with little plastic washers and small plastic screws.  Doesn't raise the tender shell noticeably and completely isolates the tender body/TMCC antenna.  Make sure on curves the tether doesn't loosen at all, and the draw-bar doesn't touch the tender shell or frame on the side-wise swing.

Kerrigan posted:

Trainbros89 posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Probably time to look inside if all the plugs are intact.

I only had time to check the tender, and they all seemed to be intact. I will look at the engine sometime over the weekend. I am curious to see if the washer coming out and me using epoxy to has had any effect. These problems occurred after the washer was put back in.

Regards,

Greg

Most of the 3rd Rail locomotive I've had problems, which were TMCC signal related,  with were finally fixed by taking off the tender shell, making sure any places where the paint has been scraped is patched (I use a thin insulating tape over both ends of the frame for instance) and isolate the shell when carefully remounting with little plastic washers and small plastic screws.  Doesn't raise the tender shell noticeably and completely isolates the tender body/TMCC antenna.  Make sure on curves the tether doesn't loosen at all, and the draw-bar doesn't touch the tender shell or frame on the side-wise swing.

Kerrigan, thanks for the reply. After hours of work on the engine, I finally figured out what the problem was and fixed it. It was a very simple fix, but I overthought what it was. I checked all wires/connections and could not find anything. I noticed that a washer on the underside od the engine for the rear truck differed from the front truck. I changed them out, and the engine worked.

Regards,

Greg