Help with RSL audio card not reading serial data from R4LC

Explain exactly what Railsounds card you're using?  Also, exactly how are you wiring the serial data to the RSL card?

I'm using a 691RSL3381 Railsounds Lite card from the 6-84257 ATSF SD-40. I connected IRX to pin 24 on the R4LC, and IRET to ground. I have tried several other RSL3 cards with the same result.  

Hmm...  I think maybe we're having a common ground issue.  FWIW, doesn't work for me either.  It "appears" the serial data does go to an opto isolator on this board the same as it does on the ERR RailSounds Commander version, so I'm thinking maybe the serial data is inverted?  I'm pretty sure that the Legacy board should respond to the 8-bit serial data, though I could be wrong on that count.  Perhaps my next test should be a Legacy R4LC with the Legacy RS-Lite board?

The setup described in my original post was actually a Legacy R4LC mounted on a Legacy motherboard. That should have been 9-bit serial data, but that didn’t work with the Legacy RS Lite card. I tried swapping in a R2LC on the Legacy motherboard also. In both cases, motor control is fine, but I can’t talk to the Legacy RS Lite card regaredless of whether it’s receiving TMCC or TMCC2(Legacy) serial data.

Its interesting you noted the ground issue. The Legacy RS Lite cards are meant to work with an RCMC. However, RCMC serial data is not output on chassis ground. But serial data from the R4LC is chassis ground.  I wonder how that plays a role?

If both the Legacy RS Lite and RS Commander cards were expecting inverted serial data, why does the RS Commander card work when I swap it in, but not a Legacy RS Lite card?

I completely realize the easy thing here would be to just give up and use the SD series ERR RS Commander card, because it works. But I was really hoping to get greedy and do a full Legacy upgrade on this old engine. I thought it would be cool to re-invent my old 1989 service station special as a Legacy loco, even if others think it's strange. I just wasn’t expecting this hiccup with a serial data problem. Maybe the Legacy RS Lite cards just don’t play with the modular Legacy boards. 

I'm speculating now as I don't really know why the RS-Lite board didn't work.  Obviously, the RS Commander board does not expect inverted data as it works fine with the R2LC in a variety of situations.  Since you already tried the Legacy R4LC board, I'm a bit at a loss.  I did trace out the serial data pin on the 9-pin connector on the RS-Lite and it does go to the opto on the board, the same as the RS Commander serial input.  I'm "assuming" that's to isolate the ground, but I really don't know for 100% certainty.

I suspect someone like Jon Z. could actually answer this question if we can get his attention.

@SantaFeFan

Jon, quick question, as per the above regarding Lionel Legacy RS Lite boards. They don't seem to accept serial data from a R4LC (or R2LC). Will RS Lite boards only read data from an RCMC? Is there a way to have a Legacy RS Lite board read serial data from a R4LC? The RS Commander can read data, so why can't a Legacy RS Lite card?  Just curious.

Hi GregR.

The data in not inverted, so let's get that out of the way up front.  The R4LC should work, but it has to be the correct firmware (read command set) to drive the Legacy RSL3.  What version R4LC are you using?  The R4(2)LC with -08 firmware won't work.

Also, I don't believe the R4LC with the "right" firmware for the RSL3 will operate the AC-Commander.  You may be stuck and not be able to make this work.

Sorry.

SantaFeFan posted:

Hi GregR.

The data in not inverted, so let's get that out of the way up front.  The R4LC should work, but it has to be the correct firmware (read command set) to drive the Legacy RSL3.  What version R4LC are you using?  The R4(2)LC with -08 firmware won't work.

Also, I don't believe the R4LC with the "right" firmware for the RSL3 will operate the AC-Commander.  You may be stuck and not be able to make this work.

Sorry.

Thanks Jon,

I have the R4LC with S03 code. Which R4LC firmware version would be compatible since 03 and 08 are now ruled out?

Greg

Well, S03 is legacy and C08 is TMCC.  I have the Legacy R4LC versions from S02 thru S05, maybe it needs a later one?

Jon, I gather than that the serial input and it's mating common are indeed opti-isolated on the RS-Lite board, right?  If that's the case, why didn't the R4LC-S03 Legacy board at least make the sound work?

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, S03 is legacy and C08 is TMCC.  I have the Legacy R4LC versions from S02 thru S05, maybe it needs a later one?

Jon, I gather than that the serial input and it's mating common are indeed opti-isolated on the RS-Lite board, right?  If that's the case, why didn't the R4LC-S03 Legacy board at least make the sound work?

John, have you tried out S02 or S05? I only have the S03 version in my parts bin. I haven’t seen a version beyond S05. Interestingly, part 691R4LC100 is an 8-bit version. Wonder where that card got used? But that’s a mute point because it’s not available anymore regardless. 

OK, I tried the S01, the S03, and the S05 connected to the 691-RSL3-001 AC-12 sound board.  The S01 and the S05 didn't wake it up at all, the S03 sort of worked.  I got the horn, chuff, and the coupler sounds.  However using a CAB1/BASE1, I couldn't get crew talk or the bell to work.  Also, the volume was pretty weak turned all the way up, I used the ERR 8 ohm speaker.

I installed a RS5.5 Polar Express board board and got full function with the S03 board.

Based on my quick tests, I'd say that going to later than a RS 5.5 board is probably somewhat of a crapshoot. YMMV

John,

Thank you for testing S01 and S05. I think you’re right about RS5.5 being the limit for the R4LC.

The engine that inspired my attempt was the Pullmor powered Legacy remake of the M&StL 2348 GP-9. It has RS 5.5.  It has the same platform that I built up today for my SD40. The only difference was my attempt to use the RSL card. Unfortunately, there are no Legacy RS5.5 cards available for an SD-40. 

At this point, I will consider this a lesson learned and stick with the ERR sound board. That’s good enough for a 1980’s toy with grinding Pullmors.  My engineering brain gets away on me sometimes with a need to know why things don’t work. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

OK, I tried the S01, the S03, and the S05 connected to the 691-RSL3-001 AC-12 sound board.  The S01 and the S05 didn't wake it up at all, the S03 sort of worked.  I got the horn, chuff, and the coupler sounds.  However using a CAB1/BASE1, I couldn't get crew talk or the bell to work.  Also, the volume was pretty weak turned all the way up, I used the ERR 8 ohm speaker.

I installed a RS5.5 Polar Express board board and got full function with the S03 board.

Based on my quick tests, I'd say that going to later than a RS 5.5 board is probably somewhat of a crapshoot. YMMV

Looking at the ERR ordering page, I see they  have a R4LC(C08). I wonder if this should have been numbered S08 as a Legacy card, or whether C08 means it was burned with TMCC C08 firmware? After all Jon called it a R4(2)LC. This might be the mysterious 8-bit R4LC card shown as not available on Lionel’s site. I have a few AC commanders on order. I know I’ve been told it won’t work but I can’t resist the temptation of an experiment!

For now I have backed off on the full upgrade to my SD40. Instead, I put in an ACMC reversing unit and let the RSL3 Legacy card be powered conventionally. The ACMC even has pinouts for directional lighting which Lionel never used on any products that I can think of. I quieted down the Pullmors with armature ball bearings and set screws. Now it runs and sounds great.

The ERR R4LC is indeed the C08, it's exactly the same in function as the R2LC-C08.  It's intended for the TMCC products they sell.  AFAIK, there is no R4LC-S08, I think they only got to S05 before the RCMC took over.

I tried the R4LC-S03 in a full Cruise Commander, no workie.

John, thanks for some great info; Falcon70

As the testing seems to indicate, your best shot is the R4LC with S3 code to run a Legacy RS board.   The "C" series code is R2LC, however a special case of "C"08 code was available for the R4LC.  The highest level of "S" series code is "S5" on the R4LC.  Many folks don't like the S5 code, and prefer S3 code.   Seems GRJ's testing showed the R4LC with S3 code worked on some sound sets.  If it wakes up, then RS should work with all functions - cab-1 won't do it as it is Legacy.  However, note that Legacy operation on the Cab-2 won't run a Cruise Commander. 

Basically, just stick with aftermarket parts on upgrades.  You may be able to mix and match the tech; however it won't work most of the time as you are finding out.

I've normally stuck with RS 5.5 or earlier for any upgrades for that reason.  I haven't run across anything up through RS 5.5 that wouldn't work with the R2LC-C08 or later. 

I remember the debacle that was described here with the RS6 board, so I've avoided those.  

I was told by Mike R that S03 was found to be more stable.  If you go way back I build a GG-1 with Legacy Cruise using the older ERR based one Lionel had, and integrated RS 5.5 GG-1.  I had fits when trying to use the R4LC S05.  Jon Z may remember.  S05 was used in the Legacy S gauge.  Hence my adventure with the Williams scale GG-1.  None of the buffers I tried work.  Engine would only run for about 10-12 minutes if I remember, until it would degrade overtime, until it stopped.  The S03 fixed it, but no one really knows why.  Now it is a work horse pulling all those passenger cars on my outer loop.  Legacy based with Legacy cruise and GG-1 RS5.5.  Crawls smooth as can be and highballs really well!  G

I remember your escapades well George, I'll stick with the S03 version if I do one of these.