L85383 LCS. Sensor track add on

Now that's one I didn't think about. With some fixed references or and a clear line of site could you triangulate engine location?

cjack posted:

I don't see any new videos since 2016.

Dave has done some videos in the past year. 

To me, the bigger issue is not that lack of marketing that Lionel has done for LCS (which is very little) but the lack of accessories and products that can take advantage of the sensor track.  Where are the breakdown B units that are triggered by sensor tracks?  Where are the train stations that make announcements when the triggered by sensor tracks?  Where are the switch towers and train orders buildings that could calcualte scale mph for a trip around the layout or that could have some action triggered by a sensor track (figure comes out of office with train orders)?  

I have three installed on my layout and to me they are an underutilized item.  There is potential but not much available at the moment.

I make recordings all the time that trigger accessories. 

Can't you do the same with the record function on the Legacy remote?

CAPPilot posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If you don't see the benefit, you're probably not the target market.

I'm probably part of the target audience for more automated control, but at this point I am not likely to purchase many new IR transmitter equipped engines.  By far most of my engines are MTH or engines upgraded with ERR's boards.  Without the discontinued IR equipped cars (which I bought four to see how well they work but two were cancelled) or an add on IR kit, I'm not sure the IR transmitter-sensor system is worth it to me to install for my small percentage of IR equipped engines.

If the target audience is folks who are going to buy new Lionel Legacy engines, then I am not part of it.

At the last Legacy User Group meeting this past spring at York,  Dave made mention of possibly developing an IR kit that can be installed in these non-IR locomotives.  This is probably if they see a demand for them.  We’ll see!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The one big disappointment with LCS is indeed the problem that you can't retrofit it to older stuff or even MTH stuff.  I was really hoping that there would be an ERR upgrade kit, but with the demise of ERR development, that doesn't seem likely.  The sensor cars are neat, but they need to continue producing them if LCS is going to have significant value.  I think I have 10 or 11 sensor equipped Legacy locomotives, and the other 100+ don't have any way to trigger the sensors.  I did buy two of the sensor cars when they were available, but that doesn't solve my problem for passenger trains.

John, you should take the dive and go ahead and transfer the guts from a sensor car into one of those non sensor capable engines.  If it can be done,  I know you’re the man for the challenge.  

Micro usb connectors please!

BigRail posted:

Can't you do the same with the record function on the Legacy remote?

Sure you can but each sensor track can create 2 recordings that can be triggered by all sensor equipped engines or by a specific engine without having to manually trigger it. 

Blake Morris posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The one big disappointment with LCS is indeed the problem that you can't retrofit it to older stuff or even MTH stuff.  I was really hoping that there would be an ERR upgrade kit, but with the demise of ERR development, that doesn't seem likely.  The sensor cars are neat, but they need to continue producing them if LCS is going to have significant value.  I think I have 10 or 11 sensor equipped Legacy locomotives, and the other 100+ don't have any way to trigger the sensors.  I did buy two of the sensor cars when they were available, but that doesn't solve my problem for passenger trains.

John, you should take the dive and go ahead and transfer the guts from a sensor car into one of those non sensor capable engines.  If it can be done,  I know you’re the man for the challenge.  

I was looking at Lionel parts and it looks like several PCBs. Most of that is probably already in a Legacy engine...it would be neat if the IR could be added somehow.

MartyE posted:

BigRail posted:

Can't you do the same with the record function on the Legacy remote?

Sure you can but each sensor track can create 2 recordings that can be triggered by all sensor equipped engines or by a specific engine without having to manually trigger it. 

And different recordings depending on direction.

I really doubt it's any big issue to transfer the guts of a sensor boxcar to another type of car or a tender.  My issue is that I don't want to buy a scale boxcar just to rip it apart and move the sensor guts, that gets expensive.  I had actually ordered a couple of the semi-scale boxcars to do just that, but they cancelled those and only had the more expensive scale cars.  I have a couple of scale sensor cars, but I'm not going to rip them apart just yet.  Also, a very important point.  Since you can't buy any more sensor cars at this time, figuring out how to use the guts seems pointless as I wouldn't be able to get more parts once I've done two conversions.

In order for the sensor tracks and LCS in general to make sense for me, they're going to have to expand the ability to add the sensors to unequipped locomotives and rolling stock at a reasonable price.  Failing that, I'll probably not be interested in the system and I'll simply have one or two sensor tracks in a staging yard to automatically load new Legacy engines and call it a day.

Truthfully, I'm very disappointed in Lionel's failure to support the LCS for anyone other than the big spender that's going to buy a fleet of Legacy locomotives and toss all his old stuff.  That's not me.  With the demise of the Mini Commander products, I can no longer equip rolling stock with TMCC control, so there's nothing to keep me from moving to MTH DCS, cheaper locomotives, more flexibility in loading sound files, even the ability to customize them, etc.  Upgrading steamers to DCS is significantly cheaper than to TMCC for full function, so even the still available TMCC upgrades aren't making nearly as much sense nowadays.  Lionel used to have a broad based upgrade path to command, from rolling stock, small motorized units, and full sized locomotives.   Most of that capability is no longer available, IMO a shortsighted decision by Lionel management.

I like your rant but I also just note mth appears to never have the intention of making an lcs-like system.

Severn posted:

I like your rant but I also just note mth appears to never have the intention of making an lcs-like system.

So what?  If Lionel isn't going to make the LCS more useful for more locomotives, including what I already have, LCS isn't a big deal to me now.  My point is that Lionel used to have something that really differentiated them from MTH, mainly stuff like LCS and upgrades for smaller motorized units and rolling stock.  With LCS being very limited except for new and expensive entries, and the other command upgrades gone, their upgrade path is the same width as MTH.

I don't buy that sensor cars didn't sell that well was the reason.  That's probably correct, but what they failed to take into consideration was that the LCS system wasn't properly sold and publicized, so people didn't know what the sensor car would do for them.  If you're going to create a system like LCS, you should be in it for the long haul.  That means that the sensor car should not have been a once-and-done product, but rather offered every year.  The LCS components are offered every year, just not the capability to really use them!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Severn posted:

I like your rant but I also just note mth appears to never have the intention of making an lcs-like system.

So what?  If Lionel isn't going to make the LCS more useful for more locomotives, including what I already have, LCS isn't a big deal to me now.  My point is that Lionel used to have something that really differentiated them from MTH, mainly stuff like LCS and upgrades for smaller motorized units and rolling stock.  With LCS being very limited except for new and expensive entries, and the other command upgrades gone, their upgrade path is the same width as MTH.

I don't buy that sensor cars didn't sell that well was the reason.  That's probably correct, but what they failed to take into consideration was that the LCS system wasn't properly sold and publicized, so people didn't know what the sensor car would do for them.  If you're going to create a system like LCS, you should be in it for the long haul.  That means that the sensor car should not have been a once-and-done product, but rather offered every year.  The LCS components are offered every year, just not the capability to really use them!

One of my problems with Lionel is they rarely finish what they start through no fault of the engineering department. LCS is a good example. It has potential to be something more. 

Live asked for years why more emphasis wasn’t put on showing LCS and Legacy at York. I was less than impressed by the answers. 

I will say Dave Olson made a pretty nice LCS module center for the last 2 York’s. I’m betting it’s missing this fall. I hope I’m wrong.  

For the record, it is hard for me to envision a decent sized layout without all kinds of sensors monitoring train movements and providing info or controlling accessories.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The problem with the yard scenario is you need some of the cars to have TMCC controlled couplers.  However, since they discontinued all the Mini Commander stuff and there's no replacement, that leave a big hole in the lineup.

Unless you have uncoupler tracks installed.

But instead of IR, Lionel should have used NFC.  Then the track has a powered reader and to upgrade a freight car all is needed is a sticker.  Sure, it can't do a running fuel used and such, but it can at least identify rolling stock.  So maybe they can do NFC for freight and IR for locomotives.

There are a lot of ways to skin the cat Sinclair, my complaint is Lionel never finished skinning this one!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since you can't buy any more sensor cars at this time, figuring out how to use the guts seems pointless as I wouldn't be able to get more parts once I've done two conversions.

In order for the sensor tracks and LCS in general to make sense for me, they're going to have to expand the ability to add the sensors to unequipped locomotives and rolling stock at a reasonable price.

The SensorCars are still available. In the last several months, I've picked up a couple from two different dealers at very nice discounts, and I could have gotten more from either dealer. At the April 2018 York Legacy Users Group, a slide was shown in which Dave Olson wrote that Lionel is "actually still sitting on stock" of the SensorCar. So, if you want them, you can get them.

The SensorCar was only shown in one or two catalogs and not well marketed when it was shown. This is just another example of John's (and other's) observation that Lionel has dropped the ball on consistently and effectively marketing LCS.

Dave also wrote in the same slide that he wants to do what is just what John asked for: "a kit that people could buy to install in their existing equipment."

Here's the slide:

Maybe we need to let Lionel know that we agree with Dave Olson on the need for a kit like this. It would go a long way to allowing folks to really get into using LCS. Of course, Lionel would still need to get behind it in terms of marketing.

Keith L posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since you can't buy any more sensor cars at this time, figuring out how to use the guts seems pointless as I wouldn't be able to get more parts once I've done two conversions.

In order for the sensor tracks and LCS in general to make sense for me, they're going to have to expand the ability to add the sensors to unequipped locomotives and rolling stock at a reasonable price.

The SensorCars are still available. In the last several months, I've picked up a couple from two different dealers at very nice discounts, and I could have gotten more from either dealer. At the April 2018 York Legacy Users Group, a slide was shown in which Dave Olson wrote that Lionel is "actually still sitting on stock" of the SensorCar. So, if you want them, you can get them.

The SensorCar was only shown in one or two catalogs and not well marketed when it was shown. This is just another example of John's (and other's) observation that Lionel has dropped the ball on consistently and effectively marketing LCS.

Dave also wrote in the same slide that he wants to do what is just what John asked for: "a kit that people could buy to install in their existing equipment."

Here's the slide:

Maybe we need to let Lionel know that we agree with Dave Olson on the need for a kit like this. It would go a long way to allowing folks to really get into using LCS. Of course, Lionel would still need to get behind it in terms of marketing.

Wow somebody paid attention. LOL!  

I bought 6 of them and converted by switching the frames (which has all the guts of the IR) to other road names of the same reefer vintage. So I have SF, UP, NYC, and CN reefers, and still a couple REA ones.

I do think I got fired up in the beginning, and just like Lionel, haven't done much since then. 

Keith L posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Since you can't buy any more sensor cars at this time, figuring out how to use the guts seems pointless as I wouldn't be able to get more parts once I've done two conversions.

In order for the sensor tracks and LCS in general to make sense for me, they're going to have to expand the ability to add the sensors to unequipped locomotives and rolling stock at a reasonable price.

The SensorCars are still available. In the last several months, I've picked up a couple from two different dealers at very nice discounts, and I could have gotten more from either dealer. At the April 2018 York Legacy Users Group, a slide was shown in which Dave Olson wrote that Lionel is "actually still sitting on stock" of the SensorCar. So, if you want them, you can get them.

Same answer really in any case.  The fact that they aren't going to make any more sensor cars means the future is secure, no upgrade path.  Ditto for the demise of much of the ERR capability.  All the indications are that the bean counters are just trying to squeeze whatever they can out of Lionel before they decide to move on. 

Buy my new overpriced locomotives and toss your old stuff seems to be the mantra at Lionel now.

As you say, perhaps the individual sensor cars are not that popular but maybe a home installed kit would be ... at you know something approaching a reasonable price to the end user.   Which would be?

I think a $50 upgrade kit would sell.  With a list price of $129.99 for the scale sensor car, it's no surprise that they didn't sell.

Bob

I feel like you should be getting a multipack for $129. In addition maybe this standalone interface could support battery power. To me simplifying installation ...  Finally since it sends a packet one assumes similar to the engine... An easy way to program it for your application ("MyBoxCar1"). As usual I think usb to something is the obvious way to go.

The bigger picture is the cost of the whole system.  To be able to have a Legacy engine sound a grade crossing warning on a single track, you need 2 sensor tracks (one approaching crossing from each direction = $190).  For a dual mainline you need 4 (=$380).  The IRV2 is a step in the right direction:  Single track $100, dual track $150 (assuming the 2 extra sensors and cables run $50 - I couldn't find them on Lionel's website).  Then add $130 for a sensor car for each non-legacy locomotive.  Each train station needs a sensor track (or IRV2 sensor) for arrival announcements. You will need the LCS wifi module ($180)  and additional Sensor Tracks or IRV 2 sensors for ipad location notifications.  

For a modest sized layout with 6 grade crossings, 2 stations, and 2 other location notifications and 5 non-legacy locomotives) the total costs are:

Using Sensor tracks: $2590 (16 sensor tracks + Wifi module +16 cables + 5 Sensor Cars) 

Using IRV2: $1430 (4 IRV2 + 8 extra sensors/cables + Wifi module + 5 Sensor Cars) 

(These are list prices, so your cost may be 20% less).

Bob

Sensor tracks should be included with all Lionel starter sets.  Have it trigger some engine functions and include a brochure on what this can do with upgrades for more functionality.  The current usage of this has to be below .01% of train owners.

Good idea overall, except ... the command/packet from the sensor track goes to the base through the LCS serial line, and then the base sends the RF command to the engine.   You need a base, you need the cable, and then the sensor track.  And if you are buying sets, you are getting flyer chief now... so no base.

But maybe it could be included with legacy engines.

I like the idea of the sensor track.  To that end, I purchased one sensor car and upgraded to Legacy.   My layout is Ross track, so use of a sensor track is not desirable.  The new IRV2 sensors which I have on-order give me hope.  Not sure an IR upgrade path would attract me.  Sounds expensive and labor intensive for value added.   My prime command system is DCS.  It would be great if Legacy could communicate to DCS but it can't.  Better yet, a DCS sensor track equivalent which could communicate to TMCC and Legacy.  Seems like a DCS sensor could be pretty simple, all it really needs to do is say:" I'm tripped" and the rest is software.

Steve, you could run a sensor equipped car behind your MTH locomotive and still get some of the benefits of the sensor track.  Things like route changes with switches would still work, and perhaps activating accessories.

I'm not sure I follow you about the DCS sensor track, the "software" seems to be the stumbling block. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Steve, you could run a sensor equipped car behind your MTH locomotive and still get some of the benefits of the sensor track.  Things like route changes with switches would still work, and perhaps activating accessories.

I'm not sure I follow you about the DCS sensor track, the "software" seems to be the stumbling block. 

Hi GRJ, I don't have any LCS interface to switches or accessories just AIU.  I have some TMCC/ERR engines but no Legacy engines.  I was just dreaming about a DCS sensor track equivalent.  Seems like there could be just a sensor embedded in the roadbed that talks to the TIU giving trip status and location data.  The TIU could then execute a recorded action.  DCS offers some of this already but DCS doesn't provide precise location that an embedded sensor would offer.  Any feedback is appreciated.   There is probably more to it than I imagine.

Look here. Not a product but mark runs mth.

http://www.silogic.com/trains/RFID.html

An earlier post asked if the smart sensor could calculate distance to an engine. The sensor outputs a DC voltage which is inversely proportional to the distance from the sensed object. I measured this and found it to be quite accurate from 2 feet down to zero. This function can be used to animate and control accessories as a train approaches, but can also indicate where the train is positioned.

really?  you measured it where exactly, on the sensor track?

The distance to the sensor was measured on a spur line with the sensor at one end facing the train. It was quite accurate. Output voltage is zero at over 24 in. and rises linearly to 2.5V when the train is just in front of the sensor.  Makes for interesting sequential animation of accessories as a train enters the spur line.

where exactly do you measure the output volrage?

You are saying to me at least that the IR receiver on the track picks up the IR transmitter on the engine up to 24 inches way approx... at least some fraction of it, improving of course to 100% when they are aligned...  yes?

The IR sensor emits an IR beam which bounces back off the train to a detector mounted in the same housing. It calculates the distance to the train and outputs a DC voltage which increases from zero to 2.5V as the train approaches the sensor. Details have been outlined in three published articles on this subject and there are videos of this in operation.

maybe i going into the "duh" category.  the sensor track is facing the train/engine in this scenario.  it's not located in the rail track itself.