Layout feedback

If you let the green track on the right descend at 2% then the blue line would only have to rise at 2%.  You should also try to eliminate the "S" curves in your reverse loops.

What are the dimensions and where is the layout in the room?

Would you post the SCARM file?

Jan

Hi J.,

What do you see when you hit the 3D button?  It's a really high track to scenery ratio.

It seems too large of a table to create a display layout.

If you will operate in command mode, multiple trains can be running simultaneously on the same lines to provide a "busy" look.

I suppose we are a missing a lot of background on the planning of the layout. That makes it difficult to make any detail related suggestions.

I have, over time, come to the conclusion, that yards are overrated to force into a layout. Spurs that service providers or users and passing sidings are more useful and fun. An operational yard should be an element that is high on the list to be a prominent feature and get the space needed.

A yard for cutting and building trains or a storage yard for complete trains is like a layout of it's own. It requires that much space.

My honest opinion: It's way too crowded. You won't have hardly any room for scenery or buildings. If that's your thing, by all means, go for it! 

If it were me, I would...

1. Lose the little orange loop and the tiny yard area inside it. 

2. Lose the stub end tracks inside between the reverse loops. 

4. Lose one track in the yard and clean it up a bit so you don't have those little "jogs" in the outboard tracks.

5. The crossovers from the blue-grey loop to the green loop should OUTSIDE the crossovers from the green loop to the light blue loop. With them inside, you have to run all the way around the green loop to go from blue-grey to light blue. Crossovers should be "sequential" rather than "side-by-side". I would also work to place the crossovers more strategically than just grouping them together. For instance, why would a train cross from green to light blue? Probably to use the yard or reverse loops, no? So one of your crossovers from green to light blue should be at the TOP of the page. Thus, a train can "cleanly" cross from green, to light blue, and immediately into the reverse loop, possibly without interfering with a train already running on light blue. Think about that sort of thing.

Lastly, 4% is going to be very troublesome if you are running older equipment without Odyssey/speed control and traction tires.

Jan posted:

If you let the green track on the right descend at 2% then the blue line would only have to rise at 2%.  You should also try to eliminate the "S" curves in your reverse loops.

What are the dimensions and where is the layout in the room?

Would you post the SCARM file?

Jan

Here is the SCARM file.   Only the outer loop inclines and declines.

Moonman posted:

Hi J.,

What do you see when you hit the 3D button?  It's a really high track to scenery ratio.

It seems too large of a table to create a display layout.

If you will operate in command mode, multiple trains can be running simultaneously on the same lines to provide a "busy" look.

I suppose we are a missing a lot of background on the planning of the layout. That makes it difficult to make any detail related suggestions.

I have, over time, come to the conclusion, that yards are overrated to force into a layout. Spurs that service providers or users and passing sidings are more useful and fun. An operational yard should be an element that is high on the list to be a prominent feature and get the space needed.

A yard for cutting and building trains or a storage yard for complete trains is like a layout of it's own. It requires that much space.

 

I am going for the train yard layout.  I like building trains with switchers.  I used to see large rail yards a lot. 

Frisco Chris 1522 posted:

My honest opinion: It's way too crowded. You won't have hardly any room for scenery or buildings. If that's your thing, by all means, go for it! 

If it were me, I would...

1. Lose the little orange loop and the tiny yard area inside it. 

2. Lose the stub end tracks inside between the reverse loops. 

4. Lose one track in the yard and clean it up a bit so you don't have those little "jogs" in the outboard tracks.

5. The crossovers from the blue-grey loop to the green loop should OUTSIDE the crossovers from the green loop to the light blue loop. With them inside, you have to run all the way around the green loop to go from blue-grey to light blue. Crossovers should be "sequential" rather than "side-by-side". I would also work to place the crossovers more strategically than just grouping them together. For instance, why would a train cross from green to light blue? Probably to use the yard or reverse loops, no? So one of your crossovers from green to light blue should be at the TOP of the page. Thus, a train can "cleanly" cross from green, to light blue, and immediately into the reverse loop, possibly without interfering with a train already running on light blue. Think about that sort of thing.

Lastly, 4% is going to be very troublesome if you are running older equipment without Odyssey/speed control and traction tires.

 

I run all legacy or tmcc with odyssey so not as worried about the 4% grade.  I have gone back and forth on the crossover placement, thanks for the feedback. Some of my larger engines derail if I try to traverse two sequential crossovers which are close.   i will probably change it but space them as far apart as I can sequentially.   I concede, the layout is crowded if I want much scenery. The orange loop is the easy target to remove to add scenery.  The left side of the layout will become more country after removing the orange loop.  The Right side, in my mind, is meant to be a working train yard.  Building trains and such.  Thanks again for the honest feedback. 

Hi again J.

Thanks for SCARM file. I hope you don't mind, but I corrected the layers, track fitment and added the grade. You can now run simulator to play with it.

it is suitable to build. There is one tight 1 3/8 at the bottom of the gold loop. I fudged a 1.18 where a 1.375 will have to go. It will fit when it's built.

I read your previous comments. I think, now,  we can work on a yard for the center.

SCARM file attached.

Moonman posted:

Hi again J.

Thanks for SCARM file. I hope you don't mind, but I corrected the layers, track fitment and added the grade. You can now run simulator to play with it.

it is suitable to build. There is one tight 1 3/8 at the bottom of the gold loop. I fudged a 1.18 where a 1.375 will have to go. It will fit when it's built.

I read your previous comments. I think, now,  we can work on a yard for the center.

SCARM file attached.

Wow! Thank you so much. I love it.   SCARM is a great tool, but you just showed me I am a young grasshopper on my knowledge of it.  How would you do the center for the train yard. What I have now is just what fits. I would like some ideas.

J Martin posted:

Moonman posted:

Hi again J.

Thanks for SCARM file. I hope you don't mind, but I corrected the layers, track fitment and added the grade. You can now run simulator to play with it.

it is suitable to build. There is one tight 1 3/8 at the bottom of the gold loop. I fudged a 1.18 where a 1.375 will have to go. It will fit when it's built.

I read your previous comments. I think, now,  we can work on a yard for the center.

SCARM file attached.

Wow! Thank you so much. I love it.   SCARM is a great tool, but you just showed me I am a young grasshopper on my knowledge of it.  How would you do the center for the train yard. What I have now is just what fits. I would like some ideas.

I am giving it some thought - I still think there should be a pick up and delivery spur somewhere - perhaps from gold center to another location.

A lot of decent yards need 10' -12' in O scale...have seen photos of any that you like?

Do you want to park a consist and drop off one and pick-up one?

What kind of fiddling do you want to do? perhaps a small version of an Inglenook?

Also, attached is an article by the OGR webmaster

I played around with Carl's file to redo the reversing loops and in the process added a yard lead.

Jan

Jan,

The concept is good.  Depends how J wants it to look. There's a lot of AA straights and extra pieces. There are also multiple joints that don't fit.

J.,

Looking at it today a question came to mind, why did you use small diameter turnout switches? There are two places where it may be necessary - the Gold Line and the Yard.

The trains move through the O72 switches much more smoothly. Is it an issue of using current inventory? Compare costs at the large retailers if you are buying new. Even with shipping, the difference isn't that much in the long run.

So, I built the whole layout incorporating all of the comments so far.

1. O72 switches
2. Jan's reverse cross
3. Frisco Chris' sequential line crossovers

Changes:

1. I added a passing siding and passenger station on the hill. A Lionel Rico Station and Lionel Passenger Platforms.
2. The passenger train takes passengers to a Plasticville station on the light blue line
3. I altered the Gold Line yard - I see a Sawmill and lumber yard there. There's nice buildings and a Lionel sawmill available. Still room for a hatch with perhaps scenery items on it.
4. Reduced the grades to 3.7% and 3.9%. Used the MTH Stone Pier set for FasTrack and decided to leave it open.

Left to complete:

Determine access hatch size and yard configuration in main area. I think an airport would look cool with a few town buildings. There's space for an O36 off of Jan's reverse cross for another switch and for another on the light blue line near the crossovers to enter/exit the yard.

Notes:

1. There are a couple of track that will be need to be a custom length. I can give you the how to. It's not difficult.
2. I added some notes where a standard track piece was a fraction to tight or too short. I made the notes and created a cut piece for good joints to enable simulation runs. These will fit when actually built.
3. I didn't color the recent changes to permit viewing.
4. The layers are organized

I don't know if what is here is in your budget, but, this looks and runs nicely now. I hope you like it.

I really don't know what to say.  You guys are incredible!   The ideas are amazing.  I started changing things to make the crossovers sequential.  I like the new reverser look.  I already own all the switches for the layout I posted.  I am trying to work the O-48 switches to make a similar design.  A while back I acquired 8 x O-36 switches for around 15 bucks each.  So I really can't afford to buy a bunch of O-72. I would rather have O-72 but.....   I will post another version shortly. 

I already own extra O-84 track so I used it instead of the O-96.  I got my existing O-48 switches in.  What do you think now? The O-60 crossover builds like it is on this SCARM but meets up in the middle perfectly, weird.  I would have to buy one O-36 Left and one - O-72 Right to make this layout.  Thanks to Carl for the tunnel lines. I used it to add the existing popups on my table. I asked for feedback a little late but I am going to implement a lot of what you have said.  

Here's what I was playing with this morning.  I agree with Carl on adding a passing siding on the upper left.  You can still have a spur off the end.  You would need to adjust the start of the down grade so that the crossover is on the level.

Jan

PS.  The lower blue line between the bottom legs of the crossing can be replace with O60 switch and curves to make it smooth.

J.,

I kinda thought you were working with current inventory. It doesn't change the flow of the track plan, just adds some wiggles. It keeps the wallet hidden

So, your table was already built, too?

Using the elevated corner would really be a nice feature. It gives the hill a reason to be there. Running a passenger train up there and down to another station would be a cool recording to have the train run while you are operating a freight.

I am not too keen on the choppy yard spurs, but it's a matter of style and it's your railroad.

One more question on the color coding - why do put the opposite switch the same color as the line it came from?

Edit- What are the annoying little black 1 3/8" for?

Moonman posted:

J.,

I kinda thought you were working with current inventory. It doesn't change the flow of the track plan, just adds some wiggles. It keeps the wallet hidden

So, your table was already built, too?

Using the elevated corner would really be a nice feature. It gives the hill a reason to be there. Running a passenger train up there and down to another station would be a cool recording to have the train run while you are operating a freight.

I am not too keen on the choppy yard spurs, but it's a matter of style and it's your railroad.

One more question on the color coding - why do put the opposite switch the same color as the line it came from?

Edit- What are the annoying little black 1 3/8" for?

Current inventory and already have table somewhat done.   Please don't laugh, but I will post pics.  Elevated corner was always the plan with the long tunnels.  I thought about cutting arches into the wall so it kind of looks like an aqueduct.  The crossover switches are wired together so one switch operates both switches to cross a train over.  Reduces switch controllers.  I am going to fix this with aux transformer power for the switches.  i have the outer two loops on a separate transformer than the blue loop with everything inside it.  KW on the outer loops with 10amp breaker hard wired.   ZW on the inner loop and yards with 10amp breaker hard wired.  Both postwar.  If one half of a crossover pair of switches  lose power the  other half goes crazy and I am worried about it browning out and burning up.  The black 1 3/8 are power blocks. I have to address lighting and all kind of wire clean up.  Now is the time for changes, before scenery and ground cover starts.

Jan posted:

Here's what I was playing with this morning.  I agree with Carl on adding a passing siding on the upper left.  You can still have a spur off the end.  You would need to adjust the start of the down grade so that the crossover is on the level.

Jan

PS.  The lower blue line between the bottom legs of the crossing can be replace with O60 switch and curves to make it smooth.

I agree with you and Carl.  It will get done when the wife says I can spend $200 on a pair of O-72 swtiches and O-72 turns. 

J Martin posted:

Moonman posted:

J.,

I kinda thought you were working with current inventory. It doesn't change the flow of the track plan, just adds some wiggles. It keeps the wallet hidden

So, your table was already built, too?

Using the elevated corner would really be a nice feature. It gives the hill a reason to be there. Running a passenger train up there and down to another station would be a cool recording to have the train run while you are operating a freight.

I am not too keen on the choppy yard spurs, but it's a matter of style and it's your railroad.

One more question on the color coding - why do put the opposite switch the same color as the line it came from?

Edit- What are the annoying little black 1 3/8" for?

Current inventory and already have table somewhat done.   Please don't laugh, but I will post pics.  Elevated corner was always the plan with the long tunnels.  I thought about cutting arches into the wall so it kind of looks like an aqueduct.  The crossover switches are wired together so one switch operates both switches to cross a train over.  Reduces switch controllers.  I am going to fix this with aux transformer power for the switches.  i have the outer two loops on a separate transformer than the blue loop with everything inside it.  KW on the outer loops with 10amp breaker hard wired.   ZW on the inner loop and yards with 10amp breaker hard wired.  Both postwar.  If one half of a crossover pair of switches  lose power the  other half goes crazy and I am worried about it browning out and burning up.  The black 1 3/8 are power blocks. I have to address lighting and all kind of wire clean up.  Now is the time for changes, before scenery and ground cover starts.

  

very cool!  Why would I laugh? I respect any and all layouts because they are what an individual creates. Train guys know the effort that it takes. it looks good!

Thanks for the explanation of your color coding.

I see that you run DCS and Legacy. I have a some comments regarding power and operation.

1. if you run fixed voltage and command all of time, power the FasTrack switches with track power. Save some wiring. The trick to keep them from messing with the DCS signal (which is known) is to put a 22uh choke in place of the track power jumper. Courtesy Gunrunnerjohn.
2. I assume you know that the 1 3/8" tracks have a center rail jumper to pull to create blocks.
3. here are the connectors for the track power wires non-insulated (have to watch because some center terminals are close to the outside rail connector bar) and insulated type these are for 14-16awg
4. create the DCS signal blocks anywhere there is a 1 3/8" as needed. if you get 10's everywhere the way you currently do it, then obviously stay with that.

SCARM displays the elevation heights at the track joints.

How do you plan to elevate the line? Sub-roadbed? Open trestles? The MTH set of stone piers looks really nice to get it done quick.

J Martin posted:

Jan posted:

Here's what I was playing with this morning.  I agree with Carl on adding a passing siding on the upper left.  You can still have a spur off the end.  You would need to adjust the start of the down grade so that the crossover is on the level.

Jan

PS.  The lower blue line between the bottom legs of the crossing can be replace with O60 switch and curves to make it smooth.

I agree with you and Carl.  It will get done when the wife says I can spend $200 on a pair of O-72 swtiches and O-72 turns. 

Hi all,

Here is the latest based on advice so far and finances.  Thanks for the feedback!

I would do one more thing and that's to remove the "S" curves from the yard.

Jan

J.,

I like what you did with the Gold line entrance and exit. The previous location of one pair caused a lot of fitment problems. This get the job done!

if you want to build the back Lavender loop on the hill, 15 1/2" would act as a placeholder for the O72 switch. One combo is a 10" + 4- 1 3/8".

I agree with Jan, try to smooth out the spurs whenever you can. You need to put some uncoupler tracks on your shopping list.

Moonman posted:

J.,

I like what you did with the Gold line entrance and exit. The previous location of one pair caused a lot of fitment problems. This get the job done!

if you want to build the back Lavender loop on the hill, 15 1/2" would act as a placeholder for the O72 switch. One combo is a 10" + 4- 1 3/8".

I agree with Jan, try to smooth out the spurs whenever you can. You need to put some uncoupler tracks on your shopping list.

I have four uncouplers on the long sidings already.  Close to the switches.  Where do you think they should be placed.  I have 2 more not place on the layout yet.  The short sidings on the left are for engine parking.  Hope to build a wheel house some day.  I just acquired the two o-72 switches i need for the layout on an auction site.  Looking forward a lot of rework this weekend.  It is amazing how a full day of "working on the railroad" in by  basement feels like a couple of hours.  

Cheers,

John

Moonman posted:

J Martin posted:

Moonman posted:

J.,

I kinda thought you were working with current inventory. It doesn't change the flow of the track plan, just adds some wiggles. It keeps the wallet hidden

So, your table was already built, too?

Using the elevated corner would really be a nice feature. It gives the hill a reason to be there. Running a passenger train up there and down to another station would be a cool recording to have the train run while you are operating a freight.

I am not too keen on the choppy yard spurs, but it's a matter of style and it's your railroad.

One more question on the color coding - why do put the opposite switch the same color as the line it came from?

Edit- What are the annoying little black 1 3/8" for?

Current inventory and already have table somewhat done.   Please don't laugh, but I will post pics.  Elevated corner was always the plan with the long tunnels.  I thought about cutting arches into the wall so it kind of looks like an aqueduct.  The crossover switches are wired together so one switch operates both switches to cross a train over.  Reduces switch controllers.  I am going to fix this with aux transformer power for the switches.  i have the outer two loops on a separate transformer than the blue loop with everything inside it.  KW on the outer loops with 10amp breaker hard wired.   ZW on the inner loop and yards with 10amp breaker hard wired.  Both postwar.  If one half of a crossover pair of switches  lose power the  other half goes crazy and I am worried about it browning out and burning up.  The black 1 3/8 are power blocks. I have to address lighting and all kind of wire clean up.  Now is the time for changes, before scenery and ground cover starts.

  

very cool!  Why would I laugh? I respect any and all layouts because they are what an individual creates. Train guys know the effort that it takes. it looks good!

Thanks for the explanation of your color coding.

I see that you run DCS and Legacy. I have a some comments regarding power and operation.

1. if you run fixed voltage and command all of time, power the FasTrack switches with track power. Save some wiring. The trick to keep them from messing with the DCS signal (which is known) is to put a 22uh choke in place of the track power jumper. Courtesy Gunrunnerjohn.
2. I assume you know that the 1 3/8" tracks have a center rail jumper to pull to create blocks.
3. here are the connectors for the track power wires non-insulated (have to watch because some center terminals are close to the outside rail connector bar) and insulated type these are for 14-16awg
4. create the DCS signal blocks anywhere there is a 1 3/8" as needed. if you get 10's everywhere the way you currently do it, then obviously stay with that.

SCARM displays the elevation heights at the track joints.

How do you plan to elevate the line? Sub-roadbed? Open trestles? The MTH set of stone piers looks really nice to get it done quick.

Great advice.  I was wondering why the DCS would lose its mind occasionally.  I do run "fixed" voltage with the kw/zw transformers as close to 18V as I can get with volt meter.   Yes I am using the 13/8" half road beds on the O-60 switches as blocks.   Thanks for the links for the track power wires.  I have been soldering everything.

Elevating the lines will be a mountain climb on the left side using sub road bed to a girder bridge completing the transition to the O-72 upper siding switch.  The incline on the far right will use the fastrack trestles.  Not my favorite, but my wife gave them to me as a Christmas present this past year. I would be a complete fool to not use them in the layout.  Married for 24 years, I want to keep it that way. Some day I might transition to realtrax for this climb.  Track ballast at a scale 40 feet in  air is not normal.  ;-)

I bought the MTH DCS this winter after the Lionel 2017 catalog came out.  My first MTH engine the same day.   I like DCS for diesels mainly for price but does very well for switchers.  I have the UP Genset MTH preordered.   I prefer the Lionel engines for steam but **** expensive. 

J Martin posted:

Moonman posted:

J Martin posted:

Moonman posted:

J.,

I kinda thought you were working with current inventory. It doesn't change the flow of the track plan, just adds some wiggles. It keeps the wallet hidden

So, your table was already built, too?

Using the elevated corner would really be a nice feature. It gives the hill a reason to be there. Running a passenger train up there and down to another station would be a cool recording to have the train run while you are operating a freight.

I am not too keen on the choppy yard spurs, but it's a matter of style and it's your railroad.

One more question on the color coding - why do put the opposite switch the same color as the line it came from?

Edit- What are the annoying little black 1 3/8" for?

Current inventory and already have table somewhat done.   Please don't laugh, but I will post pics.  Elevated corner was always the plan with the long tunnels.  I thought about cutting arches into the wall so it kind of looks like an aqueduct.  The crossover switches are wired together so one switch operates both switches to cross a train over.  Reduces switch controllers.  I am going to fix this with aux transformer power for the switches.  i have the outer two loops on a separate transformer than the blue loop with everything inside it.  KW on the outer loops with 10amp breaker hard wired.   ZW on the inner loop and yards with 10amp breaker hard wired.  Both postwar.  If one half of a crossover pair of switches  lose power the  other half goes crazy and I am worried about it browning out and burning up.  The black 1 3/8 are power blocks. I have to address lighting and all kind of wire clean up.  Now is the time for changes, before scenery and ground cover starts.

  

very cool!  Why would I laugh? I respect any and all layouts because they are what an individual creates. Train guys know the effort that it takes. it looks good!

Thanks for the explanation of your color coding.

I see that you run DCS and Legacy. I have a some comments regarding power and operation.

1. if you run fixed voltage and command all of time, power the FasTrack switches with track power. Save some wiring. The trick to keep them from messing with the DCS signal (which is known) is to put a 22uh choke in place of the track power jumper. Courtesy Gunrunnerjohn.
2. I assume you know that the 1 3/8" tracks have a center rail jumper to pull to create blocks.
3. here are the connectors for the track power wires non-insulated (have to watch because some center terminals are close to the outside rail connector bar) and insulated type these are for 14-16awg
4. create the DCS signal blocks anywhere there is a 1 3/8" as needed. if you get 10's everywhere the way you currently do it, then obviously stay with that.

SCARM displays the elevation heights at the track joints.

How do you plan to elevate the line? Sub-roadbed? Open trestles? The MTH set of stone piers looks really nice to get it done quick.

Great advice.  I was wondering why the DCS would lose its mind occasionally.  I do run "fixed" voltage with the kw/zw transformers as close to 18V as I can get with volt meter.   Yes I am using the 13/8" half road beds on the O-60 switches as blocks.   Thanks for the links for the track power wires.  I have been soldering everything.

It seems anything with a capacitor will mess with the DCS. The FasTrack switch boards have them and no chokes. DIY LED car lighting conversions can do it also. having the chokes on hand is good practice. Most of the 1 3/8" have the center rail jumper wire. I would design each colored line into four blocks. Many have no problems in actual use with each line of that length being one block. So, there's theory and there's actual use. Good wiring and good track joints are part of that. Nothing wrong with soldering. Just gave you option.

Elevating the lines will be a mountain climb on the left side using sub road bed to a girder bridge completing the transition to the O-72 upper siding switch.  The incline on the far right will use the fastrack trestles.  Not my favorite, but my wife gave them to me as a Christmas present this past year. I would be a complete fool to not use them in the layout.  Married for 24 years, I want to keep it that way. Some day I might transition to realtrax for this climb.  Track ballast at a scale 40 feet in  air is not normal.  ;-)

Well, there are ballasted bridges and some long ones at that, but I get what you are saying. yep, a 5" transition to O track and you can use Ross or Gargraves for the realistic look. FasTrack or RealTrax doesn't look bad - we are just spoiled to want the open tie look. Well, that's more $ and time and most just want to run trains.

I bought the MTH DCS this winter after the Lionel 2017 catalog came out.  My first MTH engine the same day.   I like DCS for diesels mainly for price but does very well for switchers.  I have the UP Genset MTH preordered.   I prefer the Lionel engines for steam but **** expensive.