Lionel power supply - frequency

Actually, Lionel TMCC and Legacy will NOT run on DC, so I'd skip that option.  I know some Lionel stuff has issues with 50hz, but having no direct experience, I can't be more specific.

Rockershovel posted:

I’m just getting a power source organised. 

I’m told that Lionel trains will run on 12v DC, but with reservations and limitations. Anyway I don’t have a sufficiently powerful 12v controller. 

I also know from experience that US power supplies are 110v AC at 60Hz, as opposed to the 50Hz usual elsewhere. I’ve never had problems plugging in my UK items (such as laptop chargers) in the US, using a suitable adapter plug. 

So, are Lionel trains ok with 50Hz? It’s an important question for me; I already have a 110v 50Hz transformer in my workshop, and I have a similar take-off on my welding set. There is one supplier offering a 110v 60Hz transformer specifically for Lionel, at around three times the cost of a proprietary 110v 50Hz transformer... but it’s cheap insurance if it avoids expensive damage. 

So, is this a real issue, or can I proceed using 50Hz and forget about it? 

Well, a transformer cannot change the frequency of the input power, so, if you put 50 Hz in, you get 50 Hz out, even if the transformer is labelled as 60 Hz.

I can't comment on the suitability of 50 Hz for your locomotives, but if there is an issue, a 60 Hz transformer will not solve it.

I was assuming the 60hz "transformer" was a genset or an electronic transformer that synthesized the 60hz.  As you most correctly observe, a plain transformer ain't gonna' cut the mustard.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I was assuming the 60hz "transformer" was a genset or an electronic transformer that synthesized the 60hz.  As you most correctly observe, a plain transformer ain't gonna' cut the mustard.

I hadn't thought about the electronic transformer option, but in the spirit of thoroughness, I will ask ROCKERSHOVEL to post info or a link to information on the 60 HZ transformer under discussion.

Thanks again,

Well, this is turning into an interesting thread! 

The transformer in question is offered by the sole U.K. supplier https://www.tennentstrains.co....ansformer-controller

I note that it doesn’t mention the frequency, and appears to be specific to older, Pre-electronic units. 

I also turned up an older thread on the subject https://ogrforum.com/...ing-on-a-50hz-supply  from which it would seem that the answer is is “not really, at least for pre-electronic units, although there are effects (mainly heating) you will observe if you run them long enough”

The RX transformer is probably one of Lionel's most versatile transformers. I stumbled across the onlyone I've seen in a box of small Marx and Lionel transformers under a table at a train show. Price was an unbelievable deal and so I now own it. The RX transformer service documents are an interesting read for non-electronic trains:

http://olsenstoy.com/cd/transfmr/psrx1.pdf

Others of interest are the RWM and RWM250:

http://olsenstoy.com/cd/transfmr/psrw1.pdf

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, Lionel TMCC and Legacy will NOT run on DC, so I'd skip that option.  I know some Lionel stuff has issues with 50hz, but having no direct experience, I can't be more specific.

Many years ago TAS had a customer in UK and we received an inquiry about TMCC and 50Hz.  We redirected the question to Lionel and we were told: Lionel TMCC does not support 50Hz.  Don't know if that ever changed.

Lou N

Rockershovel posted:

The transformer in question is offered by the sole U.K. supplier https://www.tennentstrains.co....ansformer-controller

This set up is not worth the money. It's just a brick (only 5 amps) and a RailKing controller. Way overpriced for what it is and does. And it looks like it puts out 50Hz.

Notice that it powers "older Lionel trains."

Electrical engineering isn’t my field but I couldn’t see anything there, that I couldn’t get cheaper elsewhere. 

I’ve ordered a workshop-quality 200W 240/120v 50Hz transformer for around 30% of the price quoted, bought a KW controller from another U.K. member of this forum (who I met through the workings of eBay) and it looks as though I will be good to go.

Lou N posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, Lionel TMCC and Legacy will NOT run on DC, so I'd skip that option.  I know some Lionel stuff has issues with 50hz, but having no direct experience, I can't be more specific.

Many years ago TAS had a customer in UK and we received an inquiry about TMCC and 50Hz.  We redirected the question to Lionel and we were told: Lionel TMCC does not support 50Hz.  Don't know if that ever changed.

Lou N

AFAIK Lou, that hasn't changed.  I don't know about Legacy, as I see people apparently running Legacy on 50hz.  I suspect the newer stuff with FET drivers that run internally all on DC may work on 50hz.  Depending on how you control the triacs of older stuff, I can see it might have a problem with different frequencies.  A long time ago in a job far away, I worked on synchro simulators at 400hz, and the timing to sample peaks meant that they were only accurate at 400hz.  Could be a similar situation with Lionel TMCC.

I lived in Jamaica in the 1970s and they have 50 hz power when the power was on!  Jamaica is where I built most of my layout and I had no trouble running Lionel and Marx trains on Lionel LW and 1033 transformers.

The problem with running some 60 hz appliances is they can over heat.  If they have cooling fans, the fans often run too slow and can over heat the appliance.  We solved that problem with transformers to lower the voltage from 120-130 vac to 100 vac for those type appliances.  As I remember only the refrigerator and the freezer needed transformers. 

I worked for Alcoa and we had electrical engineers and electricians to help us with these issues.  We also brought 3 window AC units with us from the states and the power in our rent house could not handle them.  They had to install larger circuit breakers and run heavier wiring thru the roof and over the roof to each window AC and then remove it when we left.  Most houses did not have central AC or window AC at that time.

For extra info, another issue with 50hz was electronic and stereo equipment like turntables and tape recorders and VCR recorders that were from the states and made to run on 60hz.  I had to get 50hz adapters to mechanically increase the speed to compensate for the lower cycles per second of 50hz.  Special parts for each had to be purchased and installed.  In those days we did not have electronic speed control on this type of gear.  Electric clocks with ac powered motors also did not work right and we used windup alarm clocks!

Charlie

So just use a 12 vdc supply and an inverter which puts out 120 vac 60 Hertz. Plug your 60 Hertz stuff into that.

BTW a 50 Hertz transformer brick should work fine on 60 Hertz 

Ok the thing about Jamaican fridges seems to make sense, I’ve seen reference to UK users using external fans but most don’t seem to find it necessary 

Reach out to Nick12DMC, an OGR forum member in the UK. I am sure that would he would help and share his solutions. 

Here is a link to the club that he is a member of - Lionel Collectors Club UK

I forgot to provide this to you in a different post. 

Rockershovel,

you didn’t mention if you are running TMCC products or earlier stuff. If you are running pre TMCC stuff without fancy electronics then a suitable step down transformer will be fine. I am a Flyer S gauge operator here in the UK and I run a mixture of 4B, 8B and 30B transformers on step down transformers. I have run them frequently for up to 8 hours continuously and they do get a bit warm but have never had one fail on me. I also have some AF 220V transformers, these being 4B, 8B and 18B’s and these perform just like the US 110 counterparts and get just as warm. I know a lot of Lionel operators overs here as well and they will use stepdown transformers for Lionel units right up to the ZW’s. I have seen ZW’s here where people will remove the top to improve ventilation as they get warm just like the Flyer units.

if you are going to operate later TMCC equipment then you will run into some problems for equipment made somewhere upto the early 2000’s, which is why Nick went down the road to create a power supply to feed 110V at 60Hz into the transformers. I’m sure Nick will pick up on this thread and tell you how he did it. I know that the Flyer BB I have runs fine on 50Hz over here and that was made in 2008, so Lionel made the changes to accommodate both frequencies before then. Hope this helps

Rockershovel posted:

Electrical engineering isn’t my field but I couldn’t see anything there, that I couldn’t get cheaper elsewhere. 

I’ve ordered a workshop-quality 200W 240/120v 50Hz transformer for around 30% of the price quoted, bought a KW controller from another U.K. member of this forum (who I met through the workings of eBay) and it looks as though I will be good to go.

 

Wait a minute-

Your original post implied that you already had or were planning to get a proprietary 110v 50Hz transformer, instead of the Tennent transformer. I think we all took that to mean that you had a toy train transformer suitable for use at 110V 50 Hz. The Lionel KW is not rated for 50 Hz. I would expect some overheating if operated on a 50 Hz supply, but you may find that the KW works OK on 50 Hz.  Proceed cautiously.

Sometimes what looks like a simple electrical question has "tentacles."

Gathering up all the loose ends on here, and a couple of correspondences off-forum the consensus seems to be as follows

1) none of the U.K. enthusiasts I’ve spoken to, refer to using the Tennents unit

2) the Tennents advert doesn’t refer to the frequency

3) several posters refer to using 50Hz for Pre-electronic stock and transformers, some over long periods of time, with no apparent problems other than heating if used for periods longer than I am likely to be involved in, 8 hrs/day at exhibitions

4) there are definite problems running TMCC stock using 50Hz. That’s fine, because I don’t have any. 

5) I have now sourced a 240v/110v transformer, which with any luck st all will run my Lionel stock AND save my trailing a lead across my garage to run 110v off the welding set.

press on! 

240v / 110v transformer has now arrived. I’ve plugged it in to the KW transformer controller and connected it to the track.

We have lift-off. At least two of the locos definitely run and function - MTH 4-6-4 and Lionel Polar Express 2-8-4. Both will navigate O27; both look absolutely ridiculous doing so. The old Scout 2-4-2 appears to need some TLC, although it does run. I think I’ll concentrate on O31. 

I’m waiting now, for the whistle control lever to arrive. 

I have a programme of washing the O31 track in vinegar and water to clear surface corrosion. 

Next stop - get a basic door from B&Q (Home Depot, to those across the Pond). Set up a test track.