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Hello Everyone

 

 I figured I'd post this as a warning to fellow collectors and ask for help. I recently inherited my late father's O gauge train collection of several hundred pieces of mostly MTH trains from the late '90s to the present. O gauge model trains were a lifelong passion between my father and I, and I am passing the tradition on to my son. I collect postwar Lionel, but my father was an avid collector of modern era production. Going through the collection, along with the problems associated with Proto 1 and dead batteries/scrambled boards, I've discovered some issues with the metal castings - several of the engine and tender shells have warped or outright disintegrated. It is unfortunate because most of the equipment was only test run and is otherwise in near mint/mint condition. I have not come across this problem with any of the postwar, modern Lionel or other manufacturers of the same vintage in the collection. The worst so far has been the tender of a MTH 30-1118-1 Railking 4-6-2 Pennsy Torpedo. It was purchased new, run a few times around the layout and put away in it's original box. I unpacked it tonight only to find the tender has severely warped and has begun to disintegrate. The locomotive however is like new (please see the attached pics). The more recent MTH models do not show any signs of trouble, it seems to be limited to Railking and Premiere models made in the late '90's to mid 2000's.

 

 I am a postwar collector and I am not familiar with modern era production trains.

 

I have a couple of questions -

 

1.)  Everything was packed away in the original boxes and was stored in a climate controlled area, never subject to extreme temperatures, moisture or humidity. What is causing the castings to deteriorate in less than 20 years? Is it 'zinc pest' resulting from poor manufacturing or is it a result of how the trains were stored?

2.) Has anyone else had this problem with their trains? Is this a problem with MTH?

3.) Should I tell MTH about this? Would they do anything? Would they even care?

4.)Should I be concerned that this will happen to all the die-cast MTH engines?

 

As I mentioned before, I inherited a substantial amount of O gauge MTH electric trains and I am concerned based on what I've found so far that instead of heirlooms to pass on to my son, in a few years they will be reduced to a pile of grey metal chunks.

 

Any help or comments will be appreciated.

 

Thom Cholowski

Saskatoon,Saskatchewan

Canada

Attachments

Images (14)
  • Torpedo 10
  • Torpedo 18
  • torpedo
  • torpedo2
  • Torpedo 14
  • Torpedo 15
  • Torpedo 3
  • Torpedo 12
  • Torpedo 6
  • Torpedo 7
  • Torpedo 8
  • Torpedo 5
  • Torpedo 13
  • Torpedo 16
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

Thanks for the note. To say it is a disappointment is an understatement. Dad really enjoyed his trains, he invested a lot and he took great care of them. I have a never-run Millennium gold plated Hudson that is showing signs of disintegrating as well. It is frustrating because the postwar Lionel my son and I enjoy just keep going and going.

 

 I've been out of the O gauge scene for the last decade or so and I'm not trying to fuel the MTH VS. Lionel debate. I'm just looking for some answers and see if anyone else is having this problem and if there is anything I can do to prevent it. I am surprised in this day and age (and considering the cost of some of these models) that the metallurgy is suffering from quality issues.

 

Thom Cholowski

Saskatoon,Saskatchewan

Canada

 

 

I agree with Richard - call MTH and see what they can do. They are certainly aware of the problem. They had a number of issues with zinc castings made around the same time as your RK tender. The usual causes are impurities in the alloy and/or incorrect temperature for the pour. 

 

Apart from that, keep your eye on eBay. All kinds of oddball and one of a kind parts show up there on a totally unpredictable basis. 

Thom,

 

My small collection was packed up for a few years, and so far I've had zinc pest problems with one MTH and one Lionel engine.  In both cases the products were well out of warranty, and both companies were very helpful in providing replacement parts.  Contact them.

 

But I have to admit it was an eye opener, and I've reconsidered how much money I'm willing to spend on trains.  Can't see myself spending thousands of dollars on die-cast that goes bad in 5-10 years.

 

Alan

Last edited by Kelunaboy
Originally Posted by rtr12:

Is the 'zinc pest' only a problem with modern die cast? I thought this had been a problem for many, many years going way back with some items?

I was, then it seemed like we beat it, but now corner cutting, cheaper materials, and general sloppiness appear to have brought it back on the scene.  At least that's what the research (cursory...) I did seems to indicate...

Originally Posted by rtr12:

Is the 'zinc pest' only a problem with modern die cast? I thought this had been a problem for many, many years going way back with some items?

Way back, I believe.

 

I'm not a real pre or post war historian, but I think it might have been old Dorfan trains where there are a limited number of surviving examples due to a problem similar to this.

 

-Dave

 

Last edited by Dave45681
Originally Posted by Dave45681:
Originally Posted by rtr12:

Is the 'zinc pest' only a problem with modern die cast? I thought this had been a problem for many, many years going way back with some items?

Way back, I believe.

 

I'm not a real pre or post war historian, but I think it might have been old Dorfan trains where there are a limited number of surviving examples due to a problem similar to this.

 

-Dave

 

I've dubbed the zinc pest malady Dorfan's Disease; Flyer 3/16ths O gauge models from right before WW 2 are susceptible to this as well.

The metal alloy in question is ZAMAC, which is an acronym for Zinc, Aluminum, Magnesium And Copper. In the USA, ZAMAC is commonly known as Pot Metal. Originally developed in Germany during the 1920s, ZAMAC met a demand for a material that could enable the production of intricate precision castings. For example, automotive engine carburetors were becoming very complex and cast iron, the popular carburetor material before ZAMAC, could not be cast into complex shapes with precision, so ZAMAC became the new material of choice. ZAMAC enabled toy trains to be cast with superb detail such as on the Lionel 400E Hudson.

 

The original alloys of ZAMAC were chemically unstable which caused the so called Zinc Pest of swelling and exfoliation of the parts made from it. Refinement of the ZAMAC alloy composition and processing of the alloy evolved throughout the 1930s and 1940s into the superior ZAMAC in use today. Unfortunately, some train manufacturers such as Dorfan and Lionel were victims of early ZAMAC.

 

The issue with current die cast ZAMAC toy trains in my opinion is explainable by discrepant alloy processing and or die casting. Start-up production in a plant lacking die casting experience with ZAMAC is also a likely culprit. These causal factors may explain why the Zinc Pest is not prevalent in the general market place, but it has occurred sporadically as in the toy train cases discussed on this forum. 

 

Pot luck with pot metal!

   

 

 

Last edited by Bobby Ogage

Please note that very few cast zinc items have been affected by, or ever will be affected

by, this issue, regardless of age, era, seller or country of manufacture. An item cannot

"catch it", and storage conditions cannot cause it, though I have read that storage

under cold (or was it hot?) humid conditions can speed up its appearance if the metal

is -already- contaminated. I'm not sure that I believe this, but I cannot say definitively that it is not true. It seems unlikely that a mere damp basement can cause a molecular

reaction in a cast, non-ferrous metal. But, I don't know.

 

Zinc casting is an old process and is used all over the world to make all sorts of things that live far more demanding lives than our model trains.

 

Sure, cast brass or cast bronze would be "better" (you can solder to it, for one thing!)

where casting is called for. Problem is, the cost is far greater than the cost of zinc/zamac,

and your models would weigh even more. That $2000 loco might well become a $4000

loco, half again as heavy, or some such.

 

 

The problem seems to stem from quality control at the raw material source in most cases. The time period mentioned had zinc pest issues outside the model railroad industry, and also  appeared in other die-cast hobby areas. A scan of home machine-shop forums shows some discussions.

I understand that alloy selection, melt quality and temperature control, along with lead impurities are the main culprits. Once the model is made, the die is cast. ("Thinks" : So that's where that phrase came from...) I would hope the manufacturers would make some attempt at exorcising this ghost from the old days.

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