Transfer Table Slippage

The transfer wheels are the same material as the modern culvert loader. Try a light clean of the track area and wheels with 70% alcohol(rubbing)... not Maker's Mark... q-tips and soft rags recommended. No power on while cleaning please!

John

Yes, the 4 brass colered wheels are the ground for the table. Putting covers on these would make the table inoperative. I would suspect your drive motor and its gearing need cleaning and relubrication!

Paul

Thank you Paul. You saved me a waste of time. I was going to print new wheels in plastic and come up with a method to install a rubber surface on the wheels to eliminate the slippage. I have cleaned everything except the gears, but the problem does not appear to be that. I had someone hold a drive wheel while activating the table 'move' and he could not stop the wheel from turning.

I may still try my original thought and see if I can come up with an alternative means to ground the table.

Ken

My father and I got a set of GG1 wheels (thats the wheels on the table) and my father cut a groove in the wheel on his lathe and applied traction tires to them. We replaced the original drive wheels on the table and that table will move anything that will fit on it.

If that's more than you want to get into you can try applying bullfrog snot. You apply it and let it dry. It add some great traction also but you'll most likely have to reapply it over time. Hope that is some help. 

-CDL

CDL,

Thank you for the response. What did you do to provide a ground connection to the moving table, 'cause after looking closely at the setup, Paul was correct in that the wheels are the only source of ground. I had mistakenly thought that ground was provided through one of the 3 rails--that is not the case. Did you just apply the traction wheels to the drive wheels and use the other 2 wheels to provide ground?

The two other wheels have been pretty good at picking up ground. I've thought about maybe adding slide shoes of some sort to get more ground but it's been working for 15 years now. 

CDL,

One more question. Where did you get the set of wheels? I am not familiar with the term "GGI", or is that the part name for the transfer table wheels? I looked at the Lionel parts listing for the table and all I saw was a (one) wheel assembled to a shaft and listed as "wheel assembly".

The I was supposed to be a 1. Sorry. They are GG1 wheels. If you look in a postwar parts book (the greenberg book is the best parts breakdown for Lionel trains) and look under the GG1 with magnatraction (the number escapes me at the moment) and you'll need the drive wheel. The transfer table may be in the greenberg book also. That would be the best place to find the wheels I suppose. I gave you the work around before giving you the direct answer!

Thank you CDL. Does that mean that the 2 drive wheels on the table are magnetic or should I just try to get some that are (as a replacement for the original)??

1. Is this a post,war or remake?

2. Magnetraction also needs a frame magnet near the motors field coil and wheels, the metallurgy of parts is different on these motors. You can use parts for or from a normal motor at times, but to skip a magnetraction part would cause failure of the feature if equip. E.g. left and right axle bearings for a 2037 are different metals. One side is ferris the other non ferris. Ones for a 2026 fit, but they are brass/bronze and the magnetraction's natural polarized field will be " shorted out", severed, etc. if used.

3  Which GG-1 ? (There is a lot of history on the real ones. They ran for 50 years, famous designer, fast & strong enough to snap couplers from a stop.)

    A traction tire version? The geared side? Blind wheel?

And if not the traction tire version, how will this solve the problem? That's what I don't get.

4  The thing is likely tripoding; tipping on two diagonally opposed wheels, resting on 3 wheels. Or, It may be the base, table track flatness, or the table.  Tweaking a sheet metal frame slightly may true it.

 On something new I'd have no clue on how to do it offhand.

Checking table rails for gauge and tops for flatness and  that there is no twist to the flat plane, should be done too.

(Straight edge or glass/plexi with plasitigauge or blueing, crayon on paper, etc for a rub test)

Any shoe you add should tip the thing towards traction side(they push up)

Or use a wisker pushing on rail side (vs up) or even wheel flange wiper or 2 rail plunger if you suspect ground loss at the axle. 

 I've used bell wire for a number of whisker pick ups. A pen spring can made into a holder for quick swap outs and flex; bell wire bent to an L, or heavy household solid wire as a wrap mount.

5. It needs a better bearing? If the axle hole is sheet metal without a bushing, the weight is not spread out enough, excess weight is making the sheet metal act like a brake shoe (likely on a roughed and worn axle journal area too). Or the bushings if there need replacing, flushed, etc. Adding bushings or bearings if there aren't any should lessen resistance to rolling heavy.

Ffinally; on hand (?) traction boost:   You may be fine on using just one side for power. Try some two sided tape,on one rail. It will mostly vanish from sight and provide a definite grip, lasts a long time too, like years while helping a Virginian rectifier's (another cool electric) coal drag up a 5% grade 2- 3 hours a week (You may want to detack the upside with fingers, some dust, etc. as they are very sticky at first. The texture alone is great traction.,Removal and replacement isn't hard. The stuff for window sealing plastic is the right size best texture, rugged, etc.)

Adriatic, your posts are a work of art. So many gems of usefulness. I really appreciate your posts! Thank you. Just know some of us get it. Keep at it.

John

Thank you all for your help. I will check the tables, look for wheels, and if all else fails, try some 2-sided tape.

Ken

The only reason I brought up the GG1 with magnets is that they have no steel bans on the wheels so you can cut into them. The easiest thing is to use the bullfrog snot but if you want to cut grooves for tires see if you can pull the wheels off the transfer table and then reapply them. 

The table we modified was reissue. 

Sorry if I'm confusing anyone with my posts. I'm not the best at explaining things sometimes...good responses from all. 

1 bans?  Should it be (no) " flange"? (blind)

2 How alike is the reissue? (I'm curious, any trap questioning is coincidental

3 Enjoy a Happy Birthday. 

4  oh, I've posted some works of art before. Been called that too    

But if I've helped; made you think; or entertained ; thank YOU

Thank you for the birthday wish. 28 years I'm still try to figure out how to talk and write. haha. 

The 2332 GG1 from the late 40s has bans on the drive wheels. The later magnatraction GG1 has no bans because the magnets won't work through the bans. I don't think they ever made a GG1 with tires. I'm probably wrong on that. So if you would want to get two more wheels to cut grooves, you would need those wheels for the magnatraction GG1. 

Easiest thing to do is get the parts break down (postwar or modern) and find two more wheels under that number. The GG1 wheels were a work around because my dad knew what they were by looking at them. I'm sure Lionel has two different numbers for the GG1 drive wheels and the transfer table wheels. 

The new one to me is great. Can motor instead of pullmor and runs really great once you figure out the slipping problem. 

-Cody

 Before you know it you'll be gum chewing and patting your head.

Not as a skill, but from old age, and pondering what happened to the hair

Bans... I've never heard that term if it is correct.   Bands maybe?  

Still guessing here, but think I get you.. Rims/ Beauty bands/ trim rings /Inserts; There IS a groove on the outer face of the first wheels, near the edge of the tread. It is there for a polished metal trim ring to be inserted into on the early non-mag. 2332s (esp. sharp on a "Blackjack" and with silver wisker paint ) I could see that ring interupting the manetraction field. I could see that ring interfering with machining.

It seems to me there would be a decent chance of a traction tire version from Williams ,Kline, RMT fitting. My caliper battery is toast right now, but I might be able to check kline later...maybe not the axle though(?)

I wonder if the table is bowing on you. Rubbing to a stop on the inner rails?

I have to think about things as I nap... I celebrated this "national holiday" with a mole chicken dish, too bad you weren't here Now?... siesta 

Yeah. The rims that the 46-48 turbines and berks had on them. The went to the cinder wheels in 50 for the magnets. 

I do know the Gs made by other manufactures have tires. I wasn't sure if Lionel ever made one with tires. 

Our table seems to be fine. It's been there for 15 years and still running like a champ. 

I had a Postwar Lionel 350 transfer table on my layout for many years. I don't remember there being a problem with slippage. I wonder what is different about the re-issue?

I apologize. I never answered the question as to vintage--I believe it is a re-make due to the part no. (6-14113). If the post war versions were just 350, then mine is not post war. As to wheels, I have googled the ones mentioned and find only one for sale on a UK site. I have not exhausted all the parts houses yet. My approach was to make the drive wheels out of plastic using my 3D printer. I could print them to a slightly smaller o.d. and put in groves for 2 O-rings on each. If I could get the original wheels off the axles, I could Gorilla glue the new wheels on. This was one plan and probably easier than searching the universe for wheels (unless someone could point to wheels with rubber tires that would fit (and I could always print an adapter if the fit wasn't exact).

Also, I still need to check table(s) for flatness and will let you all know.

Thanks again.

That 6 prefix is a dead givaway for modern. Id just be wary advice matches what you see. Did anyone compare wheel numbers on new vs old?

Ive been thinkimg the weight and a bow something like a shoe might be bottoming out too soon, or from the bow, dragging.

Also alingnment of the free spinning wheels; what thrust surface is favored under load, etc.  If jumped, do the wheels spin true? wobble?

The 3d wheels don't scare me. 

Your likely gonna want a puller eventually anyhow

I can check and see if we have any wheels for it if you like. I'm not sure on the price. My dad and I run C&D Train Repair. 

Thanks Cody, let me know if you have any wheels in stock.

Adriatic, what do you mean by a "puller"? If I understand, are you suggesting something like the stepper motor/belt-pulley mechanisms that they use to move the table on a 3D printer (like the CR-10 that I have), or something else? Actually I like the idea of the 3D printer approach, because you could program the stepper to index exactly to the position of each track section instead of having to eyeball the alignments. And as for the rail that my printer table slides on, they are available as spare parts. Just a thought. I will look into it and report back if reasonable as an approach.

Ken

Will do. Thank you

No, I meant a wheel puller. You need to pull two wheels to go 3d. (and consider the tires height to remain level R to L)

  I'm pretty convinced the geometry is off somewhere, or there is unexpected drag on one of the 3 inner rails, i.e. bottoming out, or a slickness of metals or maybe oil...in that order too.  

  But a stepper motor to index with would be a nice feature.  Indexing could also be done by microswitch or opto, but use a geared stepper and you've got some great accuacy. Use both together for better/more reference points and it's even more impressive. (I worked with a lot of steppers in games and hvac. I dont know why exactly, but indexing with electronics is fun to dial in     

Thanks for the correction Adriatic and let me know what you find in the wheel bin Cody. Adriatic, the more I think/look at stepper/belt/limit switch approach the more I also think it would be 'fun'. I will keep you all posted with design stuff if I chose to go that route. I have a friend who is a 3D design genius as I will show with pics of a new 24 in. turntable he designed and we printed and have totally mechanized with lights moving figures and sound. 

Hey Ken. If you like you can give us a call at 302-745-2927. You'll get my dad and you can talk to him about stock. He just retired so he'll be able to take care of you. I'm 28 and still working! Talk to you soon. 

Thanks Cody. I am going to do a little more investigating on the table level issue, and then go from there. If wheels seem to be the best answer, I will give your dad a call. Only other problem is that I don't have a wheel puller (as Adriatic pointed out).

Ken, I bought a 350 PW transfer table last year, cleaned it up (grease was hard as a brick in the gear case) and tested it … with no engine on it. Sure enough, it worked like a charm, so I put it away thinking I had fixed it. Tonight, at the urging of my grandson, I pulled the transfer table out of storage and set it up on a carpet layout. I drove a very heavy engine onto the table, and Bingo! Same exact issue you are having - it starts to move, then slips a bit, and finally just stops. The whole time the motor is just humming along nicely, and the table drive wheels are turning and slipping.

After a bit of observation and experimentation, I discovered that the center rail contact was the primary culprit. In the picture below you can see the center rail contact in its relaxed position - it's held in this position by the contact spring, which is visible in this picture.

The next picture shows what happens when you set the table down on the base - the center rail contact is pushed toward the table and of particular note, the "rear" edge of the center rail contact is now sticking "up".

This is a very sharp edge and has been scraping the plastic coated center rail tie strip, as evidenced by the picture below: 

To fix this, I used a pair of needle nose pliers to bend the rear edge of the contact away from the center rail (toward the table), as shown in this pic:

Now the edge no longer scrapes the rail.

When I did another test run, it was almost perfect, but there was still one spot I could see and feel where the table snagged something. Turns out the rail adapter was the culprit. The center table rail (topside of the table) was just barely hitting the rail adapter as you can see in this picture. The table is travelling from left to right in this pic:

A couple of judicious bends to the rail adapter (they are pretty tough!) and things ran smoothly after that.

You might want to look at your center rail, and check to see if it's smooth or rough like mine - if it's smooth, this is not your problem. I would also check the rail adapters. Hopefully this will get you up and running too! 

George

     If thats it, but tools on hand limit you or something, you could possibly bend the other end. A shallower angle at the contact end wouldn't pivot the wire end as far. Doing the wire end would be more effective though.

Adriatic posted:

     If thats it, but tools on hand limit you or something, you could possibly bend the other end. A shallower angle at the contact end wouldn't pivot the wire end as far. Doing the wire end would be more effective though. 

Yes, I agree … if that's it. But checking these two issues first makes sense - they are visual/physical checks, easily performed without removing wheels or anything else. It would be a shame to go to all the work of replacing or modifying wheels only to find that the problem didn't go away, that the root cause was this contact snagging on the center rail.

The only tool required was a pair of needle nose pliers.

And you are correct, I could have bent the other end of the contact, the end that is designed to contact the center rail, and I did consider that. However doing so changes the spring tension slightly - not a lot, but Lionel knew how much tension was needed, so in this case, I prefer to leave that end alone. Plus, I think it would be more difficult to bend that end and keep the contact parallel with the bed.

I hope that's the cause, cuz the fix (actually, both fixes) was super easy!

George & Adriatic, thank you so much. As soon as I have a little time, I will check this out and let you know. I can't thank you enough for the tips, pics, and suggestions.

Ken