What goes in here, on a Lionel 2030?

Grampstrains posted:

Could have been for a horn board.  The diagram on Lionel's website looks like what you have.  E-unit on one side and empty on the other but it shows the slots.

I thought about that, but I also just bought the 2030B, which is the B unit soulmate for this one - it has the horn. So I ASSUMED the slots in the A unit were for something else. So I took the B unit back apart, and sure enough, the speaker is mounted exactly the same way using the same three vertical tabs, and guess what? The horn board would exactly fit in the slots opposite the e-unit bd in the A unit. So why did Lionel decide against putting everything in the A unit? Or did they? Perhaps there was an "A" version that had two motors, e-unit, light and horn?

As usual, one question leads to more. But at least I have a good idea of what all the slots & tabs were for....

Thanks for the suggestion. And by the way, what did you find on Lionel's website? I am totally challenged when it comes to locating stuff on their site - could you provide a clue (or a link?)

is this a postwar  AC pulmor or MPC era with a DC motor? Olson's has PW service docs. The Lionel Supplement 1-9 has the AC and the DC motored versions. The motor truck detail is moved from Supplement 1-9 and I don't know where. (yet) Found it. The motor trucks are in Supplement 15

Looks like an MPC DC to me.

Like the Port of Lionel engine? Once you get away from PW stuff, I am lost without a Lionel #.

The second location you show is for a speaker.

Grampstrains posted:

Moonman posted:

is this a postwar  AC pulmor or MPC era with a DC motor? Olson's has PW service docs. The Lionel Supplement 1-9 has the AC and the DC motored versions. The motor truck detail is moved from Supplement 1-9 and I don't know where. (yet) Found it. The motor trucks are in Supplement 15

Looks like an MPC DC to me.

No, it is not MPC.  It is a more recent design.

I couldn't find this engine (18947 or 6-18947) on Lionel's site, however an owner's manual was available for the Dive Team set, which included this engine. The B unit was available separately. The A unit I bought used has two DC can motors, 4 traction tires and an add-on LED headlight. Additionally, the plastic frame was designed to hold a 103 e-unit, a horn board and a speaker. There's a headlight bracket up front, which I believe was for one of those "Christmas Tree Light Bulb" headlights. It seems to potentially offer everything the most fully equipped Lionel engines had to offer. As near as I can tell, this engine was manufactured in 1997.

yeah, I saw the Port of Lionel set, wasn't sure that was your engine since the "guts" were missing. After that, all I could find was a UP set with an engine numbered as 2023, which was newer (later year mfg.) and had all the options. I think that was a remake of set 1463 or something. I don't remember, now.

So, that matches the parts that you have? Do you have the shell? Has that been repainted?

yeah, I saw the Port of Lionel set, wasn't sure that was your engine since the "guts" were missing. After that, all I could find was a UP set with an engine numbered as 2023, which was newer (later year mfg.) and had all the options. I think that was a remake of set 1463 or something. I don't remember, now

Sounds like their remake of the 1950 2023 UP.
As far as I know, Lionel remade this twice, once around 1994 and again just a couple of years ago.
I have the 1994 version, it is fairly close to the original 1950 version, with a die cast metal chassis, die cast metal trucks, and a postwar style pullmore motor. It does have electronics instead of a mechanical e-unit. (I bought it anyway)
I am not familiar with the mechanical aspects of the more recent one.

Moonman posted:

So, that matches the parts that you have? Do you have the shell? Has that been repainted?

 

Unlike the 2023 from 1950 and 1994, this unit has a plastic frame and plastic trucks. I do have the shell (original paint, and a well concealed and glued crack in the nose). The plastic frame is not all that sturdy, either - with the shell off, if you grab the frame in the center and bounce it slightly up and down, both ends flex up and down under the weight of the trucks - wouldn't take a lot to snap the frame in half! Once the shell is secured to the frame with all 4 screws, things are nice and solid. The trucks are all plastic except for the axles and wheels. Like I said, it is the cheaper version. The can motors do work well though, and the pulling power from two motors and 4 traction tires is quite good - the frame has a lead weight in the center to give even better pulls. ...and no front coupler...

This has the motors in the trucks?  This looks like the "Dive Team".  I think it's one size fits all chassis, it fits either the A or B and has the mounts for either the e-unit or the sounds, you may actually be able to put both in one.

Edit: Looking again, where the speaker goes has wires for the motor, you would need a different speaker then stock.  But it's doable.

Gene Anstine

grfd59 posted:

This has the motors in the trucks?  Yes, 2 DC can motors

This looks like the "Dive Team".  I may be have been unclear, this engine IS from the Dive team set.

I think it's one size fits all chassis, it fits either the A or B Actually, the chassis for the A (2030) and B (2030B) units are different - different screw mounts, different ends, different PCB mounting method, etc. but there are some similarities, like the speaker lock-down tabs. 

and has the mounts for either the e-unit or the sounds, you may actually be able to put both in one. On the A frame, yes. On the B frame, no - the B frame only has mounting tabs for a horn pcb, none for an e-unit

Edit: Looking again, where the speaker goes has wires for the motor, you would need a different speaker then stock.  But it's doable. There are a couple of raised areas on both of the chassis/frames where the round edge of the speaker would rest, obviously meant to raise the speaker up just a bit - not sure why - but yeah, very doable.

Ok,

I found these documents in the Supplements that I believe refer to your engine. Also, the set manual. Indexed in Supplement 17 and found in S:1-9. manual from Lionel Support.

The Locomotive service manual page that Carl (Moonman) found is for a DC motored ALCO with a sheet metal frame. The loco in question has a plastic frame.

The bad information presented in this thread is giving me a headache.

Lionel switched to a plastic frame for the low-end Alcos in 1995. The frame has the appropriate stand-offs, bosses and brackets to be used in a powered unit or a dummy with horn.

The correct service manual pages can be found here:

Powered:
https://www.lionelsupport.com/...s/30610-8934-001.pdf

Dummy with Horn:
https://www.lionelsupport.com/...s/30610-8935-001.pdf

The locomotive from the 11920 Port of Lionel City Dive Team set is identical to the locos referenced in the service manual pages, with the exception of not having a front coupler. The headlight bulb arrangement might be different, as well.

TRW

C W Burfle posted:

The Locomotive service manual page that Carl (Moonman) found is for a DC motored ALCO with a sheet metal frame. The loco in question has a plastic frame.

Agreed. My plastic frame has 4 plastic towers that are the screw mounts for the shell, unlike the two end screws in the sheet metal frame in the service manual. Many other differences, like e-unit mounting, speaker mounting, etc.

PaperTRW posted:

The bad information presented in this thread is giving me a headache.

Lionel switched to a plastic frame for the low-end Alcos in 1995. The frame has the appropriate stand-offs, bosses and brackets to be used in a powered unit or a dummy with horn.

The correct service manual pages can be found here:

Powered:
https://www.lionelsupport.com/...s/30610-8934-001.pdf

Dummy with Horn:
https://www.lionelsupport.com/...s/30610-8935-001.pdf

The locomotive from the 11920 Port of Lionel City Dive Team set is identical to the locos referenced in the service manual pages, with the exception of not having a front coupler. The headlight bulb arrangement might be different, as well.

TRW

Spot on! The A unit is exactly as you said, right down to the half-bodied "Enginner Figure" Also as you said, there is no front coupler, nor is there room for one as the front cutout in the frame does not exist. There must be another frame number somewhere, eh?

I have the B dummy unit, not the A dummy. So obviously that's not a match for the second document. So here's the question; how were you able to locate those documents? What search criteria did you use? Or were you just familiar with this model and knew where to look?

I would love to learn the mysterious secrets of searching the Lionel Support docs - seems to be a bit of smoke and mirrors involved

I have a couple Amtrak FAs with both e-unit and horn.  Only one motor, though, in the front truck (I switched the trucks around so that the motor was in the rear; less torque steer issues that way). 

Frame photo on request. 

Mitch

GeoPeg posted:

Spot on! The A unit is exactly as you said, right down to the half-bodied "Enginner Figure" Also as you said, there is no front coupler, nor is there room for one as the front cutout in the frame does not exist. There must be another frame number somewhere, eh?

I have the B dummy unit, not the A dummy. So obviously that's not a match for the second document. So here's the question; how were you able to locate those documents? What search criteria did you use? Or were you just familiar with this model and knew where to look?

I would love to learn the mysterious secrets of searching the Lionel Support docs - seems to be a bit of smoke and mirrors involved

Yes, the part number for the plastic Alco FA frame without the front coupler cut-out is 610-8947-075.

Glad the info helped. The short answer to your question is that I'm familiar with Lionel's product line, and knew where to look.

The biggest problem with finding the right info is identifying the configuration found in your product. In your case, modern Lionel's Alco FA could come with Pullmor motors/stamped frames (1970's), truck-mounted can motors/stamped frames (1980's), Pullmor motors/die-cast frames (1990's), truck-mounted can motors/plastic frames (1990's) or even an all-new scale version (2000's). Further research should be conducted to learn the product numbers of the first usage of each of the above configurations, and then plug that into Lionel's support website.

TRW

For the benefit of any interested parties, here's the chassis from one of my Lionel 8764, soon to be converted to rear-truck drive: 

The digital horn sounds quite nice, incidentally.

Mitch

M. Mitchell Marmel posted:

For the benefit of any interested parties, here's the chassis from one of my Lionel 8764, soon to be converted to rear-truck drive: 

The digital horn sounds quite nice, incidentally.

Mitch

Mitch, is that really an 8764 Budd (powered) car?

GeoPeg posted:

Mitch, is that really an 8764 Budd (powered) car?

Nope.  Just the number on the Amtrak  Alco loco.  What the actual SKU number is, present deponent knoweth not. 

Mitch

The black portion of Mitch's chassis appears to be a modern era ALCO chassis, the second type that was listed by PaperTRW:  truck-mounted can motors/stamped frames (1980's)

By the way, there are at least two variations of the postwar Lionel stamped sheet metal frames. On some the motor truck cut-out has a slot on each side. On others, there is only a slot on one side.
The motor mounts are different for these frames. The motors for the two slot frames have two mounting posts. The motors for the one slot frame have a mounting post on one side, and a hook on the other.

As a note on these frames:  I've noticed, when operating these locos on O-36 or tighter turns, the combination of front powered trucks and light weight causes the front trucks to "torque steer" and derail easily.  This is solved by dismantling the little indefinites and moving the powered truck to the rear (some truck frame swappage needed).   After that, they run like a charm!  

Mitch