Who makes the Best "mass produced" 3R Scale EMD F units?

@MELGAR, your F series diesels are beautiful, as is your layout. You have a great collection of cool steamers and unique diesels.  Although some say Sunset 3rd Rail models  are not mass produced, they are BTO units made when the numbers are met, Lionel will allow custom runs when 40 units are met, so, BTO units are the new measure of mass production. So, We will make the engines if we get enough orders…. Wow, I’m thinking that LionChief is now mass produced….. Also it seems our dealers are only stocking what they get on pre-order. Some of the big retailers take more chances, but not the small mom and pop stores. Happy Railroading Everyone

@Bill N posted:

Sorry but in my book 3rd Rail despite its clear merits does not qualify as "massed produced".

The minimum run for all of the 3rd Rail diesel projects done since 2011 with the introduction of the E7 have been in excess of 500 units on the first run.  The exception was the Krauss Maffei and the price reflected that.  The E7 on the first run sold over 1000 units.  That locomotive has had three runs with a mini run between runs 2 and 3 for the Train of Tomorrow.  The FL9 was over 750 units.  In O scale that is mass production.  Additional runs have simply added to those base numbers. 

A lot of the road specific detailing done is simply a matter of policy and research.  With current manufacturing technology there can be multiple variations of the model from the same tool with adjustments.  This is the case where the E6 models were offered with 3 separate window configurations using the same tool. 

I know this because I see the production numbers instead of merely speculating based on incomplete information.

Apologies to getting off topic from the OP. 

To get back on topic, I will within the next year be looking for a set of ABBA F7s in ATSF Warbonnet to pull my growing fleet of ATSF passenger cars.  As my western road interests are all modeled in three rail I will be likely be looking for the last run of Atlas F7s or an MTH set of their most recent run.  As biased as I am towards 3rd Rail product, I don't anticipate a 3rd run of F7s in a while and the prior runs are not easily found. 

When it comes to trains, I can be very ecumenical based on my specific needs.  My second largest fleet of diesels is MTH product followed by Atlas.  Until I am in a position to "upgrade" I am very happy with those locomotives. 

However, I will contradict myself somewhat and state that the best F units I have from K-Line are the F40PHs.  Granted not probably what the OP intended, but they are F units no less.  I don't have the Lionel F40PHs, but from what I have seen they are excellent models as well.  My F40 fleet is pretty evenly split between MTH and K-Line.  My GGD Via Canadian looks great behind MTH's most recent run of that now classic locomotive.  Even VIA staff referred to them as "our old girls" on my recent trip on the Canadian.   

Jim,

Last thought for the evening. 2 Rail O scale does follow NMRA standards and DCC is the standard command control system.  If you have the space and have not invested much in your 3 rail trains, you might consider 2 rail O as a real alternative to the mainstream.  Personally, I am collecting all 2 rail O equipment for a future layout based on a specific location and period for my home while I collect 3 rail that is appropriate for my operating club.  My 2 rail equipment ranges from cars and locomotive manufactured in the 50's all the way to present day and for now I honestly feel as if 2 rail DC operation is just fine for my interests.  The DCC is simply a bonus if I decide to move that direction.

I grew up with HO on pure DC and dabbled with pure DC N during my college days into my mid 20's.  It is so easy to just get trains running that way. 

The beauty of my 2 rail collecting is that I have 95% of what I want for that home layout in terms of equipment and future purchases are based on either pure whimsey or when better quality product becomes available.  You do effectively double your required turning radius, but depending upon the space you are working in, this may or may not be an issue. 

We won't discuss my 3 rail collecting which in the COVID years spread worse than the Delta variant. 

@GG1 4877 posted:

We won't discuss my 3 rail collecting which in the COVID years spread worse than the Delta variant. 

LOL. I Probably a bit like my "S scale" American Flyer collecting during the pandemic as well - not that my 3-rail purchases were curbed either. I think we can all agree the WORST mass produced EMD F unit were the Gilbert F9s.

@MELGAR posted:

Here are some images of 3-rail F-series diesel locomotive models for comparison in order of my preference.

• Sunset/3^rd Rail New Haven FL-9 #2043
• MTH Maine Central F-3 #686
• Atlas O Boston & Maine F-2 #4257

MELGAR

I have this K-line ABA 4 motor set in Santa Fe.   I added detailed fixed pilots, Kadees, and diaphragms which improved them a lot.   But once you notice the K-line "squinty eyes" cab windows, you can't un-see them.  But still a nice looking and affordable option.

Bob

Below; Atlas F2 on the left, Lionel F3 on the right.

Below Left-to-right; Atlas F2, Lionel F3, Lionel F7.

The pilots should sit just inboard of the antclimber, like the Lionel and the Atlas units, and should line up with the rake of the nose, and not even with the front of the anticlimber.

Thanks.

- Mario

Jonathan, you and I have different ideas of what is "mass produced".  I recently dumped a bunch of my old literature.  I recall that Williams first batch of brass Baldwin diesels was advertised as a "limited run" of 500 each of two road names.  Their PRR T-1 steam loco was advertised as a limited run of 650.

I wish Lionel would offer fixed pilots and Kadee mounts on their F units like Atlas did a few years back.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

I wish Lionel would offer fixed pilots and Kadee mounts on their F units like Atlas did a few years back.

Better yet like K-Line. Their engines came with three different pilots which allowed the buyer to choose the type he wanted. If MTH offered an engine in both two and three rail versions you could at least mount their two rail pilot on a three rail engine. No need to print your own.

As for 3rd Rail how about a second pilot or separate detail for those that prefer closed coupler doors? Requests for that option was met with crickets and subsequent loss of sale.

Pete

@rplst8 posted:

I think we can all agree the WORST mass produced EMD F unit were the Gilbert F9s.

I agree... 😆

Mark in Oregon

@Norton posted:

As for 3rd Rail how about a second pilot or separate detail for those that prefer closed coupler doors? Requests for that option was met with crickets and subsequent loss of sale.

I'll have to check the box but pretty sure my 3R 3rd Rail F3 A units did indeed come with a second closed pilot.  They ship with an open pilot and lobster claw electro-coupler on the front, but that's attached with a ribbon cable and connector that allows it to be removed.

Huh?  All my 3rd Rail 3R passenger units came with a closed pilot as well as an open 2 Rail scale pilot.

- Crank

I’m sticking with Lionel Legacy F3’s, F7’s…The sounds of the equipment is amazing, the super bass adds the beefy sounds and the 8 levels of reving them up is music to my ears. I think the colors are fine, I’m not a rivet counter, just enjoy running the trains. Happy Railroading Everyone

@leapinlarry posted:

I’m sticking with Lionel Legacy F3’s, F7’s…The sounds of the equipment is amazing, the super bass adds the beefy sounds and the 8 levels of reving them up is music to my ears. I think the colors are fine, I’m not a rivet counter, just enjoy running the trains. Happy Railroading Everyone

I totally agree and happy trainin’ to you, Larry.

Thank you Vern, I love Lionel’s sound systems. Happy Railroading to you to. It’s Hot here in Tennessee, 101degrees…. Happy Railroading Everyone

I have a pair of OLD (Pullmore) Lionel F3s and they're crude but reliable.  Of more recent vintage are my Atlas and MTH versions.  The Atlas models are exquisite and my only complaint is the inability to change out the rubber tired wheel/axle sets.  MTH solved that problem with their 2-3 rail feature.  Both MTH and Atlas models have fixed pilots and are beautiful.  Of those two currently available models, I rate them both A+.

@leapinlarry posted:

Thank you Vern, I love Lionel’s sound systems. Happy Railroading to you to. It’s Hot here in Tennessee, 101degrees…. Happy Railroading Everyone

Me too, and I like your Lionel SF F3s. 👍

At 4:35 pm Mountain time in northern Utah, it’s 89 degrees. Still hot. 😳 Thank goodness for cool basements. 😉

I want to thank everyone again for all the information provided, this has become a great resource for information on these Locos.  I have learned a LOT!

Ron H - The affordability comment strikes a chord with me!  Prior to this I had purchased a Weaver Alco Fa-2 FB-2 Set.  I just got it, and posted it in buy anything cool (today), and started a separate topic on it.  It is not like MOST Weaver Alcos.

MelGar - One Picture is worth a thousand words, your Collection and Photography is Awesome and really accentuates the differences.

Jonathan - I had no ideas the quantities were that high for these Locos.  When I had been looking at some of the Passenger car sets Scott, had mentioned numbers like 75.  I model the transition era, so yes no F40's for me.

RRDoc - You had to mention the squinty eyes.  As I mentioned I have a single K-Line A-Unit, my first impression was why doesn't it look right, I realized it was the squinty eyes.  I just can't imagine why they were molded that way.  Mine is the third generation, they improved some things on over the 2nd gen (see below).  In addition to more details, the back of the mold was reworked and the Front Marker lights were made functional.  I didn't get it, but as Pete mentioned, they came with fixed pilots in the box.  I can't figure out why the windshield wasn't addressed at that time.  I still think they are OK though.

Mario - I am Friggin Jealous.  If you want to donate them, I would be happy to accept.  LOL  I didn't Realize Atlas (or anyone) had made an F2.

Now some more questions:

It was mentioned MTH can operate on 2R or 3R if I read things correctly, is that right?  How hard is it to convert back and forth?

Atlas has the ladders correctly attached to the body (shell), how do they do that when every body else has the ladders attached to the trucks?  That detail really bothers me.  Thanks again - Jim

@MainLine Steam posted:

Now some more questions:

It was mentioned MTH can operate on 2R or 3R if I read things correctly, is that right?  How hard is it to convert back and forth?

Thanks again - Jim

MTH locomotives that operated on 2R or 3R come with scale wheels.  Not all MTH engines are 3-2 compatible.  However, for the ones that are it is simply unscrewing the 3rd rail pickups and throwing a switch.  Unfortunately, MTH didn't make nearly enough locomotives with these features.  I had a CNJ Trainmaster on preorder many years back and it got canceled for lack of orders.  I was very disappointed as my CNJ and PRR transition era models are 2 rail.

MTH models that are 3-2 compatible have a -2 after the product number.

Jonathan - As far as you know were any of the MTH F-units available that way?  This could be perfect for me as I have Atlas O 2R CZ cars (Yes I know they are available as 3R) but with those "no compromise".  Also have K-Line CZ cars, so could use one Loco Set for both, depending on what I want to Operate.

BTW if they have scale wheels how do they operate on 3R track.  I have been told that doesn't work.  I posted about this earlier in the week and got very little response!

Thanks - Jim

Jim, the two rail MTH have smaller flanges but they aren’t NMRA but larger. I have run a MTH Two rail SD70 on three rail T section track, not tubular, and it ran fine. Best stick with larger curves if you do these. They have fixed pilots made for kadees.

Pete

Thanks Pete - That makes sense.

@GG1 4877 posted:

MTH locomotives that operated on 2R or 3R come with scale wheels.  Not all MTH engines are 3-2 compatible.  However, for the ones that are it is simply unscrewing the 3rd rail pickups and throwing a switch.  Unfortunately, MTH didn't make nearly enough locomotives with these features.  I had a CNJ Trainmaster on preorder many years back and it got canceled for lack of orders.  I was very disappointed as my CNJ and PRR transition era models are 2 rail.

MTH models that are 3-2 compatible have a -2 after the product number.

It’s actually not that simple sometimes.

The -2 on the product number usually indicated scale wheels, not necessarily Proto-Scale 3-2 convertible trucks. Later, they started making the items with scale wheels start with “22-“ instead of “20-“. Most, if not all, Proto-Scale 3-2 diesels sold with hi-rail wheels had the feature to convert to scale wheels but didn’t have fixed pilots. Additionally, the scale wheel sets were sold separately.

Most (but I don’t think all) Proto-Scale 3-2 locos sold with scale wheels had fixed pilots. However, they did not include the hi-rail wheels either. If you wanted to switch either version to the other, you had to buy the wheel sets separately.

When converting a hi-rail model to scale wheels, fixed pilots (when available) could be purchased as a replacement part, but weren’t offered via retail channels like the wheel sets.

@MainLine Steam posted:

Jonathan - As far as you know were any of the MTH F-units available that way?  This could be perfect for me as I have Atlas O 2R CZ cars (Yes I know they are available as 3R) but with those "no compromise".  Also have K-Line CZ cars, so could use one Loco Set for both, depending on what I want to Operate.

Not  Jonathan, and he may know better than I, but I’ve never seen an MTH F unit come from the factory with a scale fixed pilot. Some diesels, like ES44s, SD70s, and others did, but if the F units did they must be rare as hen’s teeth.

BTW if they have scale wheels how do they operate on 3R track.  I have been told that doesn't work.  I posted about this earlier in the week and got very little response!

It depends. Most track isn’t a problem, but the place you can get caught up is with the frogs on turnouts. The width and depth of the channels in a frog should be closely matched with the code of wheel being used.

rplst8 - Thanks for the information.  Sorry to hear that, was afraid it was too good to be true.  Do you know if MTH ever offered the F3 or F7 as 3-2?

I am not aware of the F units ever being released in a 3-2 configuration.  Overall, the 3-2 MTH locomotives are not common.  It is really too bad as they do allow for a lot of flexibility considering the later Proto-3 boards are also DCC compatible. 

As to 2 rail wheels on 3 rail track, I intermix two and three rail cars on my trains and rarely have issues on 3 rail track.  Yes, the 2 rail cars bounce through the turnouts, but I haven't had derailments. 

@Strummer posted:

I agree... 😆

Mark in Oregon

with the AMT/Kusan/Williams F? a close second.

Jim, and those folks who have never seen MTH F-units that are 3/2 compatible and have fixed pilots, check out the photos below for proof that they exist.

These CNJ F3 A-B-A's were offered just a couple years ago.  I believe it was the last run of F's from the "old" MTH, prior to the sell-off and restructuring.  I'm glad I pre-ordered them as the 2-rail units with fixed pilots were apparently produced in very small #'s!

Photos below are before and after I added Protocraft scale couplers to the A units.  And yes, I have run them on 3-rail track!

Additional photos below...

@leapinlarry posted:

Thank you Vern, I love Lionel’s sound systems. Happy Railroading to you to. It’s Hot here in Tennessee, 101degrees…. Happy Railroading Everyone

I concur; Lionel sounds are awesome.  

Here’s a “famous” paid of Atlas F2s that have been “re-engined” with two different Lionel F unit sound sets and this makes them slightly out of sequence. The non-powered trailing A has also been powered and new Kadee mounting blocks added to replace the crumbling stock Atlas mounts.

thanks!

- Mario

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

with the AMT/Kusan/Williams F? a close second.

While the AMT/Kusan/Williams F7 has it's issues, it's not even close to the cartoon that was the Gilbert F9.  Close second honors goes to the HO ATT FT.

Rusty

@Rusty Traque posted:

While the AMT/Kusan/Williams F7 has it's issues, it's not even close to the cartoon that was the Gilbert F9.  Close second honors goes to the HO ATT FT.

Rusty

...yikes...😳😳😳...😄😄😄

Mark in Oregon

@CNJ #1601 posted:

Jim, and those folks who have never seen MTH F-units that are 3/2 compatible and have fixed pilots, check out the photos below for proof that they exist.

They do exist! Very nice and thanks for sharing!

A few days ago, I posted a picture (first photo) of my Atlas O Boston & Maine F-2 #4257 as part of this discussion. Looking at the picture, it was evident that the original 3-rail movable pilot had developed zinc pest. Fortunately, the model also came with a 2-rail fixed pilot, so the solution was to install it (second photo). Atlas included clear and detailed instructions about how to do the removal and installation. It involved numerous small screws but the mounting holes and screws were the same for both pilots. A scale-sized coupler also was provided but I chose to retain the 3-rail coupler so as to avoid having to cut a piece off the front of the truck casting. I tested the model on a loop with Atlas O-72 curves and it runs properly. It seems to me that it will also operate on O-54 curves but I haven’t tested that yet. Third photo shows the original 3-rail movable pilot.

With the fixed pilot, this model now looks as good to me as my Sunset/3^rd Rail models – and it runs well. While the shell was off, I installed a 9-volt battery which fits into a well-made mount at the rear of the model. I consider the included 2-rail pilot to be an excellent option as supplied by Atlas and a point of recommendation for their product.

MELGAR

If we are racing to the bottom of F units, I would like to enter the Marx HO unit for the last place award. 

@CNJ #1601 posted:

Jim, and those folks who have never seen MTH F-units that are 3/2 compatible and have fixed pilots, check out the photos below for proof that they exist.

These CNJ F3 A-B-A's were offered just a couple years ago.  I believe it was the last run of F's from the "old" MTH, prior to the sell-off and restructuring.  I'm glad I pre-ordered them as the 2-rail units with fixed pilots were apparently produced in very small #'s!

I'm not sure how I missed these!  I would really enjoy having a set for the 2 rail side of my collection.  You have a real find there!

This snapshot of MTH Electric Trains F3 2-rail scale was taken through the glass of our engine case.

Regarding the MTH 3-2 F7 units.  I ordered an ABA set in PRR as soon as they were announced, and acquired a separate sale B unit. The B unit only came in 3 rail, but it, too has the 3-2 convertible trucks, so the MTH 2 rail conversion axles (20-89005) drop right in.

These MTH units are pretty good looking right out of the box. And of course they run quite well.  But I wanted my ABBA set to be as close to the PRR prototype as I could make it. I used Jack Consoli’s excellent articles in two volumes the Keystone, Volume 37, Number 3 (Autumn 2004) and Volume 38, Number 1 (Spring 2005).

I published what I did in a two part article in O Scale Trains, Nov/Dec 2013 and Jan/Feb 2014

Here is what I started with:

And here is what I ended up with.

They have been regularly pulling that Reefer block ever since

This is list of all the modifications I made

• Generic
  1. Added a second B unit by converting a separate sale 3 rail unit
  2. Changed the portholes so they are based on the EMD F7, rather than the Lionel F3
  3. Moved the truck sides inward, from the factory provided “outrigger canoe” position to a prototypical “brake shoes line in up with the wheel treads” position.
  4. Lowered the shells to a prototypical height
  5. Decreased the gap between the units by a prototypical distance.
  6. Hid the tether between units by stringing it through the diaphragms (It now cannot be seen)
  7. Converted to body mount kadee body couplers
  8. Removed the MTH truck mounted steps, and converted to more prototypical shell mounted steps
  9. Replaced the MTH end steps with more prototypical P&D steps
  10. Toned down the bright plastic on the marker lights
  11. Toned down the stainless side grilles
  12. Changed the windshield and side windows to glass. (Includes cutting a curved perimeter to match the windshield opening)
  13. Detailed the cab interiors
• PRR specific
  1. Changed to passenger pilots (closed coupler doors on the front)
  2. Removed the nose side rungs
  3. Trimmed the roof ends square on the back of both A units, and both ends of the two B units.
  4. Added a PRR Style back up light, twin marker lights, and lifting lugs to the back of both A units, and both ends of the two B units

@JR Junction Train & Hobby posted:

This snapshot of MTH Electric Trains F3 2-rail scale was taken through the glass of our engine case.

No doubt that these are nice looking SantaFe F3s. But the red is a little too shiny, as the Santa Fe used more of a less glossy matte-like finish. Also, MTH’s side portals have those inner, tapering concentric circles that make the portal windows look smaller. Also, the number boards are a little too squared off and slightly narrower than they should be. Just sayin’.

@John Sethian posted:

Regarding the MTH 3-2 F7 units.  I ordered an ABA set in PRR as soon as they were announced, and acquired a separate sale B unit. The B unit only came in 3 rail, but it, too has the 3-2 convertible trucks, so the MTH 2 rail conversion axles (20-89005) drop right in.

These MTH units are pretty good looking right out of the box. And of course they run quite well.  But I wanted my ABBA set to be as close to the PRR prototype as I could make it. I used Jack Consoli’s excellent articles in two volumes the Keystone, Volume 37, Number 3 (Autumn 2004) and Volume 38, Number 1 (Spring 2005).

I published what I did in a two part article in O Scale Trains, Nov/Dec 2013 and Jan/Feb 2014

Here is what I started with:

And here is what I ended up with.

They have been regularly pulling that Reefer block ever since

This is list of all the modifications I made

• Generic
  1. Added a second B unit by converting a separate sale 3 rail unit
  2. Changed the portholes so they are based on the EMD F7, rather than the Lionel F3
  3. Moved the truck sides inward, from the factory provided “outrigger canoe” position to a prototypical “brake shoes line in up with the wheel treads” position.
  4. Lowered the shells to a prototypical height
  5. Decreased the gap between the units by a prototypical distance.
  6. Hid the tether between units by stringing it through the diaphragms (It now cannot be seen)
  7. Converted to body mount kadee body couplers
  8. Removed the MTH truck mounted steps, and converted to more prototypical shell mounted steps
  9. Replaced the MTH end steps with more prototypical P&D steps
  10. Toned down the bright plastic on the marker lights
  11. Toned down the stainless side grilles
  12. Changed the windshield and side windows to glass. (Includes cutting a curved perimeter to match the windshield opening)
  13. Detailed the cab interiors
• PRR specific
  1. Changed to passenger pilots (closed coupler doors on the front)
  2. Removed the nose side rungs
  3. Trimmed the roof ends square on the back of both A units, and both ends of the two B units.
  4. Added a PRR Style back up light, twin marker lights, and lifting lugs to the back of both A units, and both ends of the two B units

Still the gold standard, @John Sethian.

The F units that started me down the same trek. Lowered, closed pilots and Kadees, body mounted steps, rear coupler carrier style Kadee mounts, Yelo-Glo LED swap and ATS shoes.

I have the pdf to your modifications on my desktop for easy reference. Bravo, sir.

- Mario