12x13 or 20x8 Opinions wanted

Is there any reason that the it must be a full height door?  What is the height above the floor of the bottom of the electrical panel?

If possible I would replace the entire door with a set of cabinet style doors covering just the electrical panel.  I would also add a train- dedicated electrical circuit to an outlet below the electrical box.

You can't have too deep of a table in front of the electrical box because the wife/kids can reset a breaker without having to climb onto the table.

Having 8 feet of depth to work with will allow you to easily have a double mainline with O72 and O8? curves.

You need to do a search on Norm Charbonneau's Layout  He has constructed a super detailed layout like your second option.  It will make you dream of future improvements.  You can view/operate trains from inside the loop, but visitors can watch from the outside where there's plenty of room. 

Do you have software to do your dewsign?  What track system are you planning on using, FasTrack?

Jan

Jan,

Thank you for the info.  A cabinet door over the electric panel is definitely an option.  The suggestion  to add a circuit for the trains - wow - the things I don't think of that are helpful!  That's why I love this forum. 

I have SCARM and am going through the tutorials.  It's slow going for me. 

I'm planning on using Gargraves track and Ross switches.

Andy

Nice ideas.

I like your door # 3 option " dreaming big". You can always add lift out pieces or a bridges that lift out for accessing doors or the electrical panel.

You can also put in larger curves if you go around the walls of the room. Maybe add a peninsula to the around the walls design and utilize it for an engine service yard etc.

Andy,

Well, you certainly don't have a difficult problem. The photo with the play area was the most telling. Observe how the children use the space. I find that they enjoy the space to spread out and freeform their play activities. Moving them to the small room would be too restrictive.

My thoughts are to do the 12' x 13' room. The section in front of the door for inside access can be hinged and swing for entry (casters on the bottom opposite the hinges) with a second level on it. The door will definitely limit options, so, the section could be narrow and 24"-30" long.

benefits:

1. Dad's train room
2. Can be secured
3. You have outs through the wall for empire expansion, this room could be a destination
4. When the children get older, they still need their space, more like a tv and gaming room, sleep over and friend visit place to be.
5. Building an around the walls of the 12' x 13' size will hone your building skills without overloading resources and time.
6. perhaps, even build a run through the wall, past the steps, single track, to a small island for the kids. Not as detailed, trains they can mess with and such.

There is a current thread on a 144 sq. ft. layout. Some plans have O72 track. Opportunities for spurs and accessories.

here's a 12' x 13~14' build

I have 5 children and now the grandchildren. I am just a children first guy offering my opinion.

Have fun, however you decide to proceed!

andy b posted:

I've been participating on this forum for a couple years now and had previously been limited to carpet layouts in a 12x13 room.  During this time I've been plotting a 12x13 layout on paper and in my head and taking in great idea shared here from layouts of similar size.  My wife could smell the sawdust as it were and knew I was nearing actual construction.  She says to me, "What if we moved the kids toys and play area to the smaller room and you had the whole back of the basement for the layout? You said you like to see the trains stretched out and that would look better along the back wall." 

I would appreciate your wise thoughts on which of these two areas to create in.

The 12x13 I planned to do as an around the walls layout no more than 3ft deep.  I like multiple levels so I was troubled about how to get in to the layout. A drop down or lift up bridge probably was not going to work with two levels of tracks - though I did see some incredible posts, one including a ceiling mounted winch!  I was thinking possibly a swing out section of layout.

For the 20x8 area in the rear of the basement, I think it would have to be along the back wall.   Or possibly a 20x6 island coming off the right hand wall 2ft off the  the back.  The back wall is somewhat problematic. That is where the electric panel is. The basement is finished. The panel is hidden behind a full height door.  I could cut the door in half and make sure the layout height is such that the door can be opened above it - still not convenient.  I thought maybe that section could be a module that can slide forward creating a gap in the back - allowing for someone to crawl under there and open the door.  I have never had need to access the panel, so I'm sure as soon as I make it difficult to access I'll need to get in there. The panel and door only stick out about 6" from the rest of the wall.  I am fairly certain creating a module that can easily slide in/out in the middle of a layout will be challenging.

There is opportunity to put a tunnel through the wall to the utility room and use a 12x2 area there for staging or some other hidden feature.  This is true regardless of the area chosen. I would just go through the upper left wall on the 12x13.

It seems prudent to start at the beginning which is currently figuring out which area to use and if it is the longer area - what size to ultimately use there.  Then we can have fun discussing layout design!

In the multi decade plan I'd like to leave open the opportunity to run all the way around the basement.  With that in mind I'd like to use O72 curves on the corners so if the layout ever does run all the way round, a big engine can run all the way around.

I prefer the up-against-the-wall look.  I pictured the upper level track against the wall and the lower level in front.  The island however would allow for people to play in front and in back and perhaps the upper level track would be on the inside and the lower level on the outside.  I think I could still work out getting to track in to the utility room for hidden staging.

In the end I'll want to be able to reverse the trains and hopefully move between levels.  I do not think I can pull off turning the train around in the utility area as that is 90% of the storage space in the house and includes the water heater, furnace, sump pump... 

I have found that people really enjoy operating accessories and I have acquired quite a few.  The island approach seems to provide the most opportunity to have the most accessories out at once.  I might have to stick to a single level though as having accessories on the front and back would eat up a lot of space and make the upper level quite narrow. Originally I was thinking of designing around being able to switch out accessories. One week a milk platform, the next week a 164 style log loader.  

I currently have 3 train loving kids so the more tracks that can be used simultaneously, the better.  They are good about "I'll be the crane, you drive the train" though.  Better than I would have expected!

In the upper right I could come out 10ft or so from the back wall to be able to turn around if things do not fit on a 6ft island, or 8ft, etc.  I really have 10ft out from the back until you get to the stairs but I figure I need about 2 feet of space for people to stand in front.  There is some storage under the steps so it seems like a good place to angle to the back.

Thank you,

Andy

The National Electrical code requires a 3' Deep (from the panel cover) and 3' Wide clearance in front of electrical panels. Realistically as long as you can get to the panel easily and stand in front of it you will be fine. Can you pull the board away from the wall in this area and make an isle to access the panel? Definitely  get rid of the full size door and put a  small cabinet door or access panel in its place.

I would go big- especially  if your kids like the trains. Plan your operating accessories now. They are big and eat up a lot of board space. I made that mistake and now I can't fit them.

RSJB18 - Thank you for the code.

Carl - your input is greatly appreciated on the layout and on making the most of the space for the kids overall.  Somewhat ironically I had been lobbying for the full basement around the walls option and my wife was concerned that it would eat up too much of the kids play space.  She liked the idea of the 12x13. Then she came up with the back half of the basement idea instead of the 12x13 room and now I was the one concerned about the kids play space! 

We make a good team  

Her current thought on moving the kids to the 12x13 is that the toys themselves would be more contained when not in use.  So our basement would not look like it does in the photo!  This is a huge plus for her as she is very organized, everything has a place and should live in its place when it isn't being used...

The kids would have any of the 12x13 that isn't storing toys and the front half of the other side to play in.  She pictures them bringing something out and playing on the "big" side and putting it back when they are finished - which they are good about.  The adults would have a less cluttered space for tv, conversation, Ticket-to-Ride, etc...

I also asked about keeping kids out of the layout - more concerned about visitors than our kids.  She has already thought of that as well.  Apparently they make really long stylish looking baby gates.  She'd put "Train Depot" or something on the wall above that covers the ducts and run the gate across the front making it a train station.  I am impressed at the thought she has put in to it.

In all cases the layout will have to start in the 12x13 or 20x8 area. I have been unable to sell the full around the basement idea. Some day the layout may expand.  Maybe when the kids are out, 20 years from now, the layout will go all the way around and use both the 12x13 and the back of the basement! 

I do like the idea of "without overloading resources and time" I always feel short on both ends. 

I'm still feeling out whether or not my wife's case may actually be something like, "I've decided I need the kids stuff in the 12x13 room for my clutter free sanity - you may have the back of the basement"

The kids are 5, 3 and 1 and are all train obsessed. 

Andy,

Layout height will be important so the kids will be able to reach the trains -- rerail them, operate accessories, and just watch.

Think modular in the sense that at some time you will want to disassemble portions of the layout to rearrange it into your dream layout.

You can have two distinct elevations to your layout.  The kids area or classic Lionel 1950s at 35" to 30", and your area above theirs and generally out of reach  at 40+".  At this higher height you will be above most furniture.  Perhaps you can negotiate a 12" to 18" right of way to the 12' by 13' room.

Jan

The kids do like to be hands-on.  When I was plotting the 12x13 I thought about a shelf on the inside about 2' high so they could run in circles with their "push engines" - old plastic steamers that I took the gears out of.  If I end up in the back of the basement I was starting to think of ways they can still be hands-on.  The best I've come up with so far is a trundle style layout that pulls out from under the main layout - maybe 4x8.  I can build the main layout at a decent height and either build a step across the whole front, which will allow me to change the height as they time goes by, or let them use stools.

Andy, just my opinion 20'x8' how about a dog bone style layout. Larger peninsulas on both ends and narrower in the middle. Easier access to trains to, I might even say 7'x20'.

3 rail O with large curves takes up lots of real estate quickly. In my opinion O gauge looks best with longer trains that allows them to stretch their legs on straight aways.

Your original around the walls idea appeals more to me than the toy-train type island layout.    Island type layouts are 50s-60s era designs.   John Armstrong taught us about linear layouts which are better done as narrower shelves or benchwork.   

As for the electrical panel.   mine is on the wall behind my yard.   Fortunately it is not a full length door.   I enclosed it with a cabinet door that swings open above the layout.    I can stand on a stool and reach over my 40 inch yard benchwork to open the cabinet and reset a breaker.    I have not found it a problem.   But it sounds like it would require some construction for you to do something like that. 

If you could get to 9x20, you could have a 3 ft aisle down the middle with 3 ft wide bench work on both sides.