2 Trains and 2 Auctions

Interesting! And a good practice to pay attention to detail!

My 4014 freight set arrived in a 4013 box too, fortunately I had a 4013 set for the box!

@Rob English posted:

My 4014 freight set arrived in a 4013 box too, fortunately I had a 4013 set for the box!

But did you have the set box for the 4014 Freight set?  LOL!  A long journey for me to get the second of the 2 sets from the 2013 auction.

I also have an extra 4013 set box now.  Looking for another passenger set to fill that box. 

NWL

Interesting story!

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

My thoughts of Set 4013, is that it could have came with any color of the streamline cars because the 1940 catalog does not specify the car color.  The 1938 and 1939 AC Gilbert catalogs always specified the color of cars that were sold in the sets, but not in 1940.  As this was the only streamline Chicago era car set sold in 1940, my thought is that they were using up all of their leftover cars in this particular set, so it could have came with blue, red, chrome, or yellow.

All of this is very entertaining to me, as I have been watching all these sets and boxes move around lately as you outlined.

As a fan of the Gilbert era Chicago Flyer style trains, I've spent a lot of time studying all these sets, specifically the 1940 passenger set.  I have an old time friend who will basically go to the grave arguing that the only color passenger cars available in 1940 were the yellow 6 wheel truck.  He doesn't have any reasoning or proof, other than "David Garrigues told him that years ago, but he cannot remember the justification of why".

It's not really worth the argument with him anymore, but to better myself and my knowledge, I've spent a stupid amount of time looking at everything I see related to these trains just to attempt to find some clarity.  After our most recent argument, where I sent him all the pictures of the eBay box with red car component boxes, I went back and re-read the catalog description AGAIN, for about the 50th time.  This time, something stuck out at me that I didn't notice in the past.  In the attachment below of the catalog page, you'll note that the cars are described as having "imitation glass windows with silver curtain trim".  To the best of my knowledge, only one color of passenger cars comes with the silver window curtains.....Red.

So since I share your belief that you could have gotten various colors of cars in set 4013 (in an attempt to clean out the factory of old product), I have to ask if you've seen or know of any other cars with silver window curtains besides the red?

I tend to believe that many/most of the 1940 sets were leftover sets with red cars (as cataloged in '39), thus why it is the most commonly found version of cars paired with a 436L&T combo.  Arguably it could have spanned 2 years of availability.

Most of the light yellow 6 wheel truck cars I've observed are factory converted from 4 wheel truck assembled cars, and you can see evidence of the belly pan being removed (paint disturbed in the screw holes as well as paint wear around the outboard mounting hole for the old 4 wheel trucks that were removed (The 6 wheel trucks have an inboard mounting hole in the floor).  So were these yellow cars used in the 1940 set?  Sold in a department store set?  Both?  We may never know exactly, but the lack of color suffix in the catalog is very telling of Gilberts loophole to clean house.

Anyway,  Fun Stuff!  

Ives1122,

I have spent a lot of time examining these streamline sets as well.  I believe I have examples of all of the streamliner sets that were produced in Chicago and in New Haven.  The most unusual is a boxed set c. 1937 with a 1680 Hudson, tender, and 4 Hiawatha cars.  The set included a Hudson whistling billboard from 1937 and track, all of which fits into the set box.  Supposedly the set below was a special set for Gimbels.

I never paid attention to the description of the windows, but that could be an oversight by the people writing the catalog way back when.  As for the colors of the window trim in the other sets, no the red cars are the only ones with silver trim as far as I know.  The chrome cars have blue trim windows, the blue cars have orange trim windows, and the yellow cars have green trim.  The green cars, Hiawatha cars, and early UP yellow cars do not have window inserts.

Years ago, I recall selling a 435 engine tender with 3 chrome cars that was a boxed set for a friend.  The one problem with that set is that there was no readable set number on the box, so I have no idea of what year the box was from or what set the box originally came with. 

As for the 4013 box you saw on ebay with the boxes for the red cars, I purchased that box, prior to the freight set that I just bought for the 4013 box.  I am not sure it had the correct inner boxes in it, as it came with a tender box for a 1680 Hudson (numbered 162?), which would not have been a correct number for 1940.  I don't believe the engine box had a flap with a number.  There were 3 boxes for the red cars, but given the mismatch and poor condition of the set box, one never really knows if they were born together.

As for my 6-wheel yellow cars, there is evidence that the cars did have 4-wheel trucks and belly pans on them at one time. 

NWL

Fun story, what is the roadbed that your track rests on?

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

I never paid attention to the description of the windows, but that could be an oversight by the people writing the catalog way back when.  

Years ago, I recall selling a 435 engine tender with 3 chrome cars that was a boxed set for a friend.  The one problem with that set is that there was no readable set number on the box, so I have no idea of what year the box was from or what set the box originally came with.

As for the 4013 box you saw on ebay with the boxes for the red cars, I purchased that box, prior to the freight set that I just bought for the 4013 box.  I am not sure it had the correct inner boxes in it, as it came with a tender box for a 1680 Hudson (numbered 162?), which would not have been a correct number for 1940.  I don't believe the engine box had a flap with a number.  There were 3 boxes for the red cars, but given the mismatch and poor condition of the set box, one never really knows if they were born together.

NWL

-Interestingly enough, the curtains are not mentioned in the previous Gilbert catalogs until 1940, which is why it caught my attention.  It's just so odd that in the previous two years there were vivid car color descriptors, then in 1940 all there is to talk about is silver window curtains, but no mention of paint.

-That Hudsonwatha set is pretty wild.

-Do you have the supposed department store / uncatalogued set with the 432/433t and 3 chrome cars?  I've seen two of these and one supposedly has boxes that are "in storage".  Hopefully someday I'll get to see the set #.  Seems like there are a few versions of uncat or dept. store sets out there.

Glad to see you reunite the two JN ADAMS boxes with each other and their respective trains.

@Lyle posted:

Fun story, what is the roadbed that your track rests on?

Berber Carpet

@Ives1122 posted:

-Do you have the supposed department store / uncatalogued set with the 432/433t and 3 chrome cars?  I've seen two of these and one supposedly has boxes that are "in storage".  Hopefully someday I'll get to see the set #.  Seems like there are a few versions of uncat or dept. store sets out there.

I have no knowledge of the uncataloged 432 and 3 chrome car set, other than I was asked by a friend to sell it for them at York many years ago.  The seller was more of someone who invested in trains, as opposed to one who was interested in the history of the trains.

The set box was dirty and worn and there was no readable number on it.  So like I indicated, I could not really be sure it was even a correct set for the box.

It is interesting that you mention seeing multiple of these sets.

One of the problems with buying 80 to 120 year old trains, is that without the history or boxes how does one know they are true sets and not something that someone put together over the years?

I know that my 1939 blue streamline set with 432 came to me with a 43224 of 1938.  A former owner had put a tag on the engine indicating that they had replaced the original 432 with the 43224 due to the engine going bad (I assume the boiler disintegrating) and being unable to find a correct 432 to go with the set.  It is interesting to see all of the sets that have been created by sellers over the years.  One of the best I have seen was a #19 switcher set of 1939, where the "boxed" set was in an early 1920s #19 set box, with the early set being a windup passenger set that included a tunnel, station, and train in an oversized box.  The buyer had purchased it at a reputable auction house and did not know the difference in the styles of boxes / box labels or that the #19 set number had been used on two different sets in the Flyer prewar era.  That is a perfect example of the need for knowledge/history on these items.

NWL

@Nation Wide Lines posted:

I have no knowledge of the uncataloged 432 and 3 chrome car set, other than I was asked by a friend to sell it for them at York many years ago.  The seller was more of someone who invested in trains, as opposed to one who was interested in the history of the trains.

The set box was dirty and worn and there was no readable number on it.  So like I indicated, I could not really be sure it was even a correct set for the box.

It is interesting that you mention seeing multiple of these sets.

One of the problems with buying 80 to 120 year old trains, is that without the history or boxes how does one know they are true sets and not something that someone put together over the years.

Absolutely, and I feel like Flyer is hard enough, but the Gilbert streamliner sets tend to be relatively scarce with any sort of provenance.  The boxes don't seem to age well either.

Do you have any passenger car boxes for the 6 wheel truck yellow cars?  I would be curious what the box label stamps say.

The story of the 432 with 3 chrome cars goes something like this.  My friend who debates with me on the 1940 set color constantly bought his boxed.  He originally thought it was "the" 1940 set, until Garrigues told him otherwise at York one time.  Supposedly Garrigues knew about the the 432 w/ 3x chrome cars as well and it is supposedly another department store set (year unknown).  Unfortunately I have never laid eyes on the set box as my friend keeps his boxes in a storage locker away from his house.  Also unfortunately, Garrigues is dead, along with his knowledge.  The other set I've seen sold without boxes of course.

@Ives1122 posted:

Do you have any passenger car boxes for the 6 wheel truck yellow cars?  I would be curious what the box label stamps say.

I have all 3 individual boxes for the yellow cars with 6 wheel trucks.  I would have to look at them again, but they are stamped signifying they are Yellow cars with 6 wheel trucks. 

I will take a photo of the boxes and post, when I get a chance.

Thanks gents for the (rehashing) and additional information. Interesting little bit of Gilbert controversy!

The answer for what the individual boxes are stamped for the Yellow 6 wheel truck cars is shown below

I knew that the boxes denoted the 6 wheel trucks and the Yellow color and they are stamped as 1621 - 6 - Y PULL or 1622 - 6 - Y OBS

@Ives1122 posted:

All of this is very entertaining to me, as I have been watching all these sets and boxes move around lately as you outlined.

As a fan of the Gilbert era Chicago Flyer style trains, I've spent a lot of time studying all these sets, specifically the 1940 passenger set.  I have an old time friend who will basically go to the grave arguing that the only color passenger cars available in 1940 were the yellow 6 wheel truck.  He doesn't have any reasoning or proof, other than "David Garrigues told him that years ago, but he cannot remember the justification of why".

It's not really worth the argument with him anymore, but to better myself and my knowledge, I've spent a stupid amount of time looking at everything I see related to these trains just to attempt to find some clarity.  After our most recent argument, where I sent him all the pictures of the eBay box with red car component boxes, I went back and re-read the catalog description AGAIN, for about the 50th time.  This time, something stuck out at me that I didn't notice in the past.  In the attachment below of the catalog page, you'll note that the cars are described as having "imitation glass windows with silver curtain trim".  To the best of my knowledge, only one color of passenger cars comes with the silver window curtains.....Red

Anyway,  Fun Stuff!  

I feel like I've heard this argument a few times in the last year or two..... You argue like an old married couple! I do appreciate the history you guys are sharing about these sets.

@Nation Wide Lines

Does the 435 that came with your yellow cars have the reverse lock out lever sticking out below the cab, through the firebox side?

Not all of the 435’s have this lever.

Im trying to understand if it was an early or later feature.

@Ives1122 posted:

@Nation Wide Lines

Does the 435 that came with your yellow cars have the reverse lock out lever sticking out below the cab, through the firebox side?

Not all of the 435’s have this lever.

Im trying to understand if it was an early or later feature.

The locomotive boiler has the slot in the side for the lockout lever, but the motor does not have the lockout lever.  I know that some boiler castings do not have the slot for the lockout lever, but cannot tell you when the lever was specifically used on the 435.