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Over the years I've become more scale oriented, so much so I pretty much switched to 2 rail.  I've been traditional, Hi-rail, 3RS, and eventually 2 rail.  As I was going trough these stages I was always interested it finding more accurate equipment.  To do so I found it necessary to join some historical societies and also purchase books.  That was just a bit of background to cover the few words I needed to put my comments in context.

 

Over the years, MTH has only produced two freight EMD FT's.  They also produced one passenger FT.  As a Santa Fe modeler, I have always been a fan of the EMD FT because of it's historic nature.  It represented the first successful, long distance diesel engine.  Santa Fe's initial testing proved it to be a steam killer with performance that overall surpassed the steam power that Santa Fe had in service.

 

Of the 2 freight FT's MTH has produced, the one offered in the 2005 Volume II catalog was the only one done in paint representing the earliest and most complex of the Santa Fe paint schemes as seen in the prototype photo below.

 

 

There are a lot of classic pictures of these early freight diesels.  Santa Fe used them for PR purposes, usually at the head of a SFRD reefer block.

 

I'm only going to get into rivet counting on the models at the most basic level:

 

I was thrilled when MTH announced the freight FT.  I immediately pictured it hauling a string of Santa Fe reefers.  I was happy that MTH made the additional B to go along with the A-B-A set.  For the most part, that is the way most pictures the FT's.  I received the MTH FT and as with everything else I buy I started looking lack of scale dimensions, detail, paint, etc.  I thought MTH did a decent job and was pleased that the side number panels were lighted.  In those days that wasn't always done, even in HO.  The FT A unit is a little shorter than an F3 or F7, etc.  What I didn't know is whether the MTH FT's were sized properly, i.e. had the reasonable dimensions for a scale FT.

 

I recently received a set of 3rd Rail FT's.  The 3rd Rail engine has been highly praised and it is a scale engine.  I finally had something with which I could compare the MTH FT. How does the MTH FT compare to the 3rd Rail engine size wise? I finally know that MTH did a good job on producing a well priced 3 rail engine.  When you consider that the 3rd Rail engine is at least twice the price, the MTH engine is an excellent compromise.

 

Don't get me wrong.  I think, given the nature of 3rd Rail's attention to getting everything as perfect as possible at their price point, the 3rd Rail engine is a treasure.  But, for a 3 rail modeler that wants a good, scale sized representation of an EMD FT, the MTH engine is a good choice.

 

The MTH engine is on 3 rail track on the left and the 3rd Rail engine is on the right.

 

FTcomparison

FTcomparison2

 

 

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Last edited by marker
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Admittedly I'm not a Santa Fe diesel expert but I couldn't help noticing the somewhat stark difference between the pilot on the MTH and 3rd Rail FT units. My question is which one is correct? The photo of the actual diesel engine looks very similar if not identical to the 3rd Rail model and I also noticed the paint scheme on the MTH unit appears to be rather 'toy-like' compared to the 3rd Rail unit - i.e. too colorful.

 

Just my observations..............

Last edited by nyccollector1

Comparing one model with another is not the best way to determine if either has accurate dimensions.    The best to evaluate a model is to obtain a drawing of the prototype and measure the model to see if the model dimensions match those on the prototype.  

 

I usually figure that any measurement I make that is within 2-3 scale inches of the prototype dimension is accurate in O Scale.   

 

1 scale foot in O is 1/4 inch.   3 inches is a 1/16.    It is easiest to do with a scale rule, but a plain old ruler will work too.  

 

And if you want to get really down and detailed you can use calipers, and a height gauge and get finer than 2-3 scale inches.

 

There were enough FTs built that i would think a drawing with enough detail is readily available in the modeling press.    Even a lettering diagram usually has the overall dimensions.

You are correct prrjim, but like I said, I wasn't rivet counting.  I was making a visual comparison.  The 3rd Rail engine is correct, so there is no need to get out a ruler and drawings.  I should note that when I get my Key FT's, I will compare them to the 3rd Rail models.  I know that the Key used GM drawings for the models.  I'm pretty sure that Key and 3rd Rail will measure favorably, and that then implies the MTH isn't too far off.  

 

That said, I did get out a ruler when I first received the MTH FT and it measured out pretty well, but that was over 8 years ago.  The problem with drawings is that when you are measuring something with a 3 rail coupler and the drawing measures from coupler, it doesn't work.  Not all drawings are useful for measuring 3 rail trains.

Last edited by marker

I agree.  Take a good look at the MTH windshield - it looks a bit "off".

 

As for using railroad blueprints, Key can tell you that is not always the definitive answer.  For instance, the Alco PA drawings show no nose taper.  The only way Key was convinced to add the correct taper was with photographic evidence.

 

I too like the FT - I have but one set, in 17/64 scale, bronze.  Not as nice as the new plastic models, but I am quite happy with them.

Originally Posted by bob2:

I agree.  Take a good look at the MTH windshield - it looks a bit "off".

The MTH windshield looks like it's a bit narrower compared to the 3rd Rail version.  But I'm wondering if that's due to the simulated window gasket detailing?  Perhaps a bit too thick making the windshield look a tad more "squinty eyed" compared to the other?

Howard, great report and outstanding comparison photo!

 

You said, "....I have always been a fan of the EMD FT because of it's historic nature."  I concur, of course, but from my perspective as a fascinated boyhood observer of Great Northern FTs in the roundhouse/servicing facility at Hillyard (Spokane) Washington, I was enamoured of all those wonderful portholes!

 

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net...ages/a/ae/Emd_ft.jpg

 

 

RE: F-unit pilots, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think various F units had differently styled pilots, some for practical application ("snowplow"), some for aesthetics.  I've heard them referred to here and on other historical forums as "passenger" and "freight" pilots with the early Fs having smooth reverse "shovel" contours and later locos having a more complex "bulbous" multiple contour shape.  It's possible that the FT fleet across different roads may have sported a variety of differently shaped pilots at different times and for different applications.

 

Here are some links for comparison:

 

GN F7 with true "snowplow" pilot:

 

http://www.railpictures.net/im.../6580.1248235918.jpg

 

AT&SF F7 "Warbonnets" 

 

http://i147.photobucket.com/al...EWLINER/0906/DJ3.jpg

 

http://www.craigsrailroadpages.com/sac/images/f7.jpg

 

D&RG F3 with complex curved "passenger pilot":

 

http://www.cumberlandmodelengi...1-E034_jpg_83953.jpg

 

Hope that helps the discussion!

 

FUnitsAreCoolBear

 

 

 

 

I concur, of course, but from my perspective as a fascinated boyhood observer of Great Northern FTs in the roundhouse/servicing facility at Hillyard (Spokane) Washington, I was enamoured of all those wonderful portholes!

 

You were ahead of me, I remember seeing MoPac FT's but back then I looked at diesels in comparison to Lionel and American Flyer.  It wasn't until my 20's that I started looking a lot closer, but in the 50's I couldn't quite put it together.

 

You are correct about the F unit pilots, however I'm guessing that in the early to mid 1940's railroads used the original factory pilot.

 

No wonder you were enamored, the GN FT's were great looking.

 

 

Emd_ft

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I have an ABBA set of MTH FT's in CNW freight livery and, as Howard pointed out, they have the F3 pilots. What pleasantly surprised me is that MTH got the CNW numbering convention correct on the units. I'm going to remove the couplers and drawbar connect the AB pairs. The irony is that MTH's configuration is correct for Santa Fe as the ATSF B units had hostler cabs and could be operated separately.

Hey, Matt!

 

Regarding the remark in your post above concerning "hostler cabs", that tells me that you know your first generation diesels very well!  I've always admired you for being a detail-oriented guy, and that proves it.

 

When I was a kid, we were too poor for me to have a set of Lionel F3s, but I had school pals who did.  Few things in my youth held more fascination for me than the Lionel Warbonnet F3s, at least until I discovered that girls weren't as bad as we guys had thought!  But that's another story.

 

Whenever I got the chance, I studied my buddies' F3s as closely as I could, from those gorgeous silver Blomberg trucks, to the tiniest details on the carbodies, memorizing them with crystal clear Technicolor 3-D clarity.  

 

I wondered endlessly about what function they all served in the operation of the locomotive, for instance the wire-mesh rectangular grills on the roof just aft of the control cab (dynamic brake grid cooling vents), or the circular conical devices further back between the exhaust stacks (engine radiator cooling fan housings), and the cast-in circular knurled caps ahead of the cab and engine-access doors in the sides of the carbodies (sand filler ports).  Back when I was eight years old, the functions of these F3 details were beyond my wildest speculation, and certainly increased my fascination with the Lionel models and their prototypes.

 

Of those details that I observed, perhaps the most curious were the three square and one rectangular holes in the vertical rear panel, flanking the vestibule door into the engine's interior (see 9th thumbnail image from the left, showing F3 carbody end detail):

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/201219785938

 

55 years later, while reading Dr. Cynthia Priest's remarkably well-researched book on Santa Fe diesels, I learned that the B-units had "hostler cabs" at one end so that a servicing yard crewmember (hostler) had a rudimentary set of controls for maneuvering an otherwise "cabless" B-unit when uncoupled from it's normally paired A-unit.  These "hostler cabs" had windows so the crewmember could see where he was going within the engine servicing facility.  That finally satisfied my curiosity about the purpose of those cast-in unglazed square holes!  Of course, when Lionel created the tooling for the Warbonnets, they missed a couple of important distinctions which may have added confusion to this topic.  The original set consisted of a pair of A-units, one powered and one not.  Originally there was no B-unit produced.  Nonetheless, the artisans at the New Jersey factory, apparently looking at photos of F3s picked up the carbody end detail from a B-unit (i.e. including the windows for the hostler) and incorporated them (albeit inaccurately to boot) into the rear end vertical panel of the 2343 tooling, oblivious to the fact that an A-unit equipped with a full crew cab wouldn't need or have a hostler's cab in the other end!  And while we're on the subject, the B-units had small single headlights mounted above the hostler's line of sight so he could see while maneuvering an orphan B-unit in the yard at night.  Lionel's tooling designers, for whatever reason, omitted that detail from the body casting.

 

Louis Marx, the Chevrolet to Lionel's Cadillac in the toy train market, also produced an F unit Warbonnet of their own in the early '50s, presumably trying to cash in on the Warbonnet craze in full swing at the time:

 

http://www.buymarxtoys.com/wp-...3203909469054720.jpg

 

Marx's answer to Lionel's 2343 A-A set was a much cheaper sheet metal ("tinplate") lithographed version of a Warbonnet FT passenger locomotive.  I say it was an FT because it had the distinctive set of five circular portholes instead of the two or three-porthole (depending on the EMD F3 production "phase") F3 through F9 versions.  Similar to the nonsensical error regarding the anomalous hostler cab windows in the rear of Lionel's 2343 A-units, Marx committed the same booboo by lithographing not four but two square representations of hostler windows into their A units as well.  The Marx Warbonnets, despite the FT-like arrangement of four portholes were to today's toy train buff a mishmash of features and erroneous omissions apparently incorporated from different EMD F-unit models.  For example, the Marx Warbonnet  roofs have the correct arrangement of cooling fans and lithographed exhaust ports for models F3 and later rather than the rectangular flattop exhaust and cooling vent arrangement of FTs.  The truck frames are castings designed to look like three-axle units appropriate to EMD's double-diesel family of passenger E-units rather than the two axle Blomberg models found on all F-units.  Although usually thought of as freight engines, Santa Fe did order and operate Warbonnet schemed FTs in passenger service.  Here's a black and white photo of a set pulling a heavyweight Pullman consist:

 

http://www.wig-wag-trains.com/...ries-Locos/p26f1.jpg

 

My 1950 Marx Warbonnet set however came with freight, not passenger equipment. Back then, and perhaps to a lesser extent today, toy train manufacturers were much more intent on making an emotionally evocative product for kids of all ages including geezers like me to play with and for parents to buy for them than they were interested in scrupulously prototypical accuracy.  Thus, both Lionel and Marx managed to miss some key prototype-specific detail distinctions when they created their tooling and lithography in the post-war period of the late 1940s and early 1950s.

 

The good news is that today's nostalgic collector and operator of O gauge trains, whether from the '40s or today, can have an ever increasing selection of more and more accurate scale renditions of the original prototypes.  The MTH and 3rd Rail/Sunset versions of EMD's paradigm-shifting FTs are both admirable efforts in my estimation!

 

By the way, I just looked at my ABBA set of MTH Premier Warbonnet F3s, and neither the A- or B-units have hostler cab windows cast into the end panels!

 

Fascinating subject, Howard, thanks for posting.  I'm afraid I rambled way off-topic, sorry.

 

WarbonnetsForeverBear 

 

 

 

 

 

Last edited by Bearlead
Originally Posted by Bearlead:

Hey, Matt!

 

Regarding the remark in your post above concerning "hostler cabs", that tells me that you know your first generation diesels very well!  I've always admired you for being a detail-oriented guy, and that proves it.

 

...

WarbonnetsForeverBear 

 

Thanks, but I'm no expert. My reference to MTH getting it right about ATSF was that the units are coupled separately. I didn't see the MTH ATSF units to see if the extra porthole and hostler windows were in place (3rd Rail's are correct). Howard knows way more about ATSF early diesels than I do. I've been roster checking just about every locomotive of interest released by the manufacturers, even collecting prototype photos on the off chance I decide to supplement the details (one of these years I'll build a CNW E8 Crandall Cab). I've ignored several ATSF and CNW releases from MTH because they weren't even close (and they call the 2-rail guys rivet counters). I have a project on the list right now involving chopping the short hoods on a pair of Santa Fe SD24's that I pre-ordered without doing an image check (should be fun given the configuration of the motors).

 

It's all good.

Could you post side shots of the 2 engines showing the trucks?  MTH used a shortened version of the Blomberg truck for years, and that's one detail that would stand out in a comparison, especially the length of the truck and where it was mounted in relation to the body.  The 2011 MTH catalog mentions a redesigned truck, so I'm assuming that the 2005 model had the shorter/less detailed truck.  The fuel tank area would be somewhere else to look to see if the tank's the correct size.

Good thread Howard. FT's are somewhat new to me not having been aware of them until just a few years ago. Those freight Santa Fe's are terrific looking.

 

Here is an early Premiere FT pair we have. The pilot appears 'toy-like' but otherwise they have pretty decent detailing, a MARS light, along with the nice lighted side boards. 

Image 6

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Last edited by c.sam

MTN posted: MTH used a shortened version of the Blomberg truck for years, and that's one detail that would stand out in a comparison, especially the length of the truck and where it was mounted in relation to the body.  The 2011 MTH catalog mentions a redesigned truck, so I'm assuming that the 2005 model had the shorter/less detailed truck.  The fuel tank area would be somewhere else to look to see if the tank's the correct size.

That's all correct. The MTH FT was engineered about 15 years ago.  It's had few detail changes since.  I was surprised it held up as well as it did.  Are they equals, no.  If MTH brought out the FT today and sold it as a scale version for 2 rail, many knowledgeable modelers in the 2 rail community would pick it apart.  That isn't the case with the 3rd Rail engine.  

 Matt posted: I didn't see the MTH ATSF units to see if the extra porthole and hostler windows were in place (3rd Rail's are correct)

Matt- As you can guess that isn't MTH's game.  The extra porthole isn't there.  

 

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