A couple of questions regarding Grades

A 2.8% grade on a model train layout is OK. In the real, 12-inch-to-the-foot scale world, a grade of 2.8% would be a serious operating obstacle, but on a model train layout, not so much.

Using Multiple Units on the head end of a train is good practice when operating on heavy grades. It makes sure you have enough tractive effort to get up the grade without slipping the wheels, and it does lessen the strain on the mechanism because the work is being shared among the locomotives in the multiple unit consist.

42" is a good height.

Hi Rich, and thank you for the input.

Paul

@Rich Melvin posted:

the work is being shared among  the locomotives in the multiple unit consist.

You meant lashup, right?

More important than the actual grade is the transition from level to grade and back again. It must be gradual, smooth, and as long as possible.

I can add some additional experience if it helps. My layout is S gauge but many design issues are the same. All my engines are either Legacy or TMCC. The design criteria for the layout was 2% or less but to make the track plan work three long grades were greater, the worst being 2.7%. All grades are longer than the longest train. The S gauge Legacy engines are all two motor, one Legacy engine will pull the longest train anywhere with no problem. That would be 10 heavy passenger cars or 20 poorly rolling old Gilbert freight cars. The single motor TMCC conversions can be stalled up grade but that is unique to the S gauge engine interior space issues that require the Cruise Lite boards rather than the Cruise Commander boards.

When designing the grades of 2% and more do not forget to allow space for vertical easements. I needed about 9" top and bottom for the easements. Bottom so the pilots would not rub on the rails, top to prevent derailments of diesels that have scale profile wheel flanges. Try to avoid turnouts on steeper grades. My modern free rolling freight and passenger cars will start rolling downhill from a stop on grades as small as .25%, all sidings where cars will be left uncoupled from an engine must be flat. My Lionel Legacy engines throw a lot of traction tires, keep an assortment on hand. The other brands (American Models) have never lost a traction tire. The engines with scale wheels and no traction tires can be fun to operate because they really do need to be double or triple headed to climb even the smallest grades.

@AmFlyer posted:

When designing the grades of 2% and more do not forget to allow space for vertical easements.

Paul,

Tom makes a valid point about the transition from flat to grade.  I use RR-Track.  For grades the program seems to go from flat to the grade % with no transition.  So if I wanted a 2% grade and RR-Track calculated the length to be 20' for the height I wanted to go, I needed to add additional length for the transition to stay at the same 2% grade.  If I was limited to 20', then adding the transition in the same space resulted in a steeper grade.

My grades are about 4% on average over about a 9 foot run each. None of the engines, TMCC and Legacy with Odyssey, and K Line with cruise M have any issues going up or down the grades. I'm not pulling over 8 or so cars though.

I'll have a 2.5% grade over 20 feet on my one level change.  Most of the grade is in place, and my "test" run up seemed to do well with a LC+ Camelback and six 18" passenger cars.  If that fairly anemic puller has no issues on the grade, I suspect it's not going to be a major issue.

I like the way you are approaching your build.  Lots of good thinking, good questions.  Below are some thoughts from decades of building layouts that may be of value.   When designing the build of your bench work there are a few determining features which you may want to consider:

Consider extending your grade as far back to the overpass as possible.

The over under point is like a corner stone,  the point from which all dimensions are referenced.

A 2% grade of tangent track and a 2% curved track have different resistance values.

A 2% 054 curve and a 2% 072 have different resistance values.

Consider using a single piece of non rigid 1/2" plywood to form your vertical curve easement allowing at lease 8" of flat at each end.

3' 4" piece of 1/2" plywood would provide a 8" flat, 24" of actual vertical curve transition and 8" of flat.  Personally I use 36" of actual vertical curve transition + 8" & + 8", 52" overall.  Your mileage may vary.

As Rich says 42" is a very common layout height.  One thing I used to do was to set some 38" high, 42" high and 46" high 2' X 4' "tables" up in a customers train room with instructions to work on some projects to find a comfortable height.  We all have different heights, leg lengths, torso lengths, and arm reach.  You must be comfortable to be enjoyable.

If you always have to use multiple power units or if you always have to get a running start to get up a grade, that can get old.

Using a thin bottomed overpass bridge could require less rise.

Excluding certain types of rolling stock could require less rise.

Use of a degree gauge, (Micro Mart) a plumbers level  or a short level with a incline spacer can help you to develop a consistent grade.

Craftsman 4' level #39255 has incline markings for ease of ramp building.

The loop around your" whatever scenery"...if you could send your spouse away for a 3 day weekend consider running your loop through the wall adjacent to the door frame then curve up the sketch and return through the wall at the tunnel portal and you will then pick up several additional feet of overall grade length.

Try not to think of walls as a boundary but rather a reference point, simply a datum line.  The only real wall restrictions are in the stud, electrical and havc ducting category.

Just because all your legs are cut to the same length does not mean your benchwork is level.  Assuming that the floor is level can be misleading.  What are the first three letters of assume?

360 degree laser levels are reasonable priced these days.  I use a Delta.

8' levels can be very helpful.  Use levels in pairs or quad to speed up the leveling process.

I am sure there are some points I have over looked.

You didn't miss too many techniques Tom, and I saw quite a few of them on full display at my place!

Don’t have anything to add about grades just wanted to say that I like your plan

@John H posted:

You meant lashup, right?

LOL. It s a lashup, if you need to follow the DCS manual. It’s how you make a multi toy consist. :-p

I think anything over 2 % is a serious grade on a model RR too.    If you have traction tires and such you can do more.    If you run longer trains, you do more grade too.    So there are a lot of variables involved based on what you want to do.

You can lesson the effect by having one set of tracks going up as the others go down.  Instead of one grade of 2.8, you can have two grades of 1.4.

Have fun!

Ron

Just by way of prototype background Santa Fe Varnish went over Raton Pass for many years and Amtrak's Southwest Chief still does. The grade is 3.5% in places. While an operational headache it is doable (obviously-every day since the completion of the tunnel in 1879).

@Ron045 posted:

You can lesson the effect by having one set of tracks going up as the others go down.  Instead of one grade of 2.8, you can have two grades of 1.4.

HUH?  You'll have to explain that to me, if you're climbing a 2.8% grade, I don't care how many tracks are going down, you're still climbing a 2.8% grade!

I have a large folded dogbone, and that exact situation, a track going up, and one coming back down after the upper loop.  However, the grade going up is still around 2.4-2.5%.  The inner track has the slightly greater grade as it's track length is a bit shorter than the track going up.

If your engine has traction tires you won't have any problem with any of the grades mentioned above.  A 25% grade is the theoretical maximum that an engine with all steel wheels powered and no cars will begin to slip on steel rails.

Jan

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

HUH?  You'll have to explain that to me, if you're climbing a 2.8% grade, I don't care how many tracks are going down, you're still climbing a 2.8% grade!

Sorry I was not clear.  Also sorry my mainline is a disaster right now.

You will see in this picture I have my mainline tracks entering a tunnel.  The tracks above the tunnel are 8" high.  These tracks actually meet 19 feet away.  If my mainline were level, then the grade to get those tracks 8 inches high over 19 feet would be about a 3.5% grade.

But, when these tracks meet, my main line is going down 4 inches and my branch line is going up 4 inches over the same 19 foot run.  So now both tracks share the grade of 1.75%.  Mainline down 4" over 19' and Branch Line up 4" over 19'.

Ron

In addition to a smooth transition at each end of the grade, keep the grade consistent.  A hump in the grade invites slipping.

This is good information everyone - thank you.

John - I think Rob is doing something like you see the highway dept do sometimes: The road gets lowered when going under the overpass so the overpass does not have to excessively high.

TomTee - great observations. Seems there is a great deal of experience coming through in your reply.

The part that is still a but fuzzy is the "transition". Makes me believe it is not as simple as putting a couple of shims under the track and starting my grade?

Sorry for not doing a roll call of all the names above that have contributed such insight - I do appreciate all the input being provided.

Paul

My mainlines are almost always on a grade up or down given the design of the layout.  Two points I will make, first I think it makes a big difference if you are running some sort of cruise control or not where the speed is constant.  I find it very enjoyable watching an engine struggle going up grade and then going down grade at pace.  No, not like a roller coaster, but just at pace.  I have several older Atlas engines (Dash-8s) that I love watching.  Yes, I also realize you can turn the cruise control off as well.  The second part to consider is the height of your tallest car when the layout goes under the track section over head.  Your rise will need to be greater than the height of the tallest car or otherwise it will get stuck, going under the overpass.  This is shown well in Ron's picture above.  I could see that coming into play in the "whatever scenery" section of the layout.

I love the layout, especially the yard and the turn table.  Enjoy!!!

John

Split grade def continued:

Think of your layout as a split level home.

You walk in the front door to the main level.  From that datum level you could go up the six steps (half a level) to the bedrooms

or

Go down the other five steps half a stair case to the rec room.

Once you are at the lowest point you then can travel under the upper level.

When you practice splitting the grade you will find that the majority of your mainline tracks are on an slight incline going either up or down.

On the RR I am building right now   you can see two of the grades.  The near bridge is traveling up grade from the mainline interchange.  The rear grade is descending to one of the lower levels.

Check the two tracks against the wall, the right track from the double cross over lift out leaves the interchange and descends to other levels below.  The left branch line rises to yards on higher levels :

Generally speaking only my yards are on the level.  All connecting right of ways are on an split grade incline of some nature.  This approach is best utilized using open grid construction with risers for the right of way and flat decking for the yards.   Riser construction is not recommended by Mianne.  Mianne only recommends full plywood decking.   Side note, all yard trackage is directly fastened on the Homasote which is raised to the cork roadbed level.  Only the connecting right of ways are on raised cork roadbed on Homasote.  You can see the level track transition from the sitting on the cork to sitting on the Homasote at the mid point of the left most curved switch entering the yard.

@Tracker John posted:

In addition to a smooth transition at each end of the grade, keep the grade consistent.  A hump in the grade invites slipping.

Or a dip... My GG-1 if going slow can stall at this point.  I have two cars where kadees will uncouple.  But that is more of a user install problem.

Dips like that in the trackwork is something I'm trying to avoid, especially under the second level where I might have more trouble extracting the cars.