Adding yard to my layout and would like advice

JOHNF,

Well, before I can comment, you need to provide a lot more information.  For example, what's the rest of your layout look like and how is it positioned with respect to this proposed yard?  What is the purpose of the yard (pure storage or assembling, shuffling and reassembling or other)?  What is the purpose of the half oval?  Is the turntable solely for turning equipment or do you plan an engine service facility of some kind?  Where?

While you are contemplating these questions, please realize that you have actually constructed two separate yards that are connected by the turntable entry tracks and the half oval.  Further, neither yard seems to have a drill track that prevents switching operations from fouling / blocking the "mainline" half oval.  Finally, the use of a wye switch just before the turntable produces an awful tight S-curve (not good) just before entering the actual turntable.  That is a recipe for derailment disasters.

Chuck

Here's a version without the wye. It has 7 storage tracks, though the engine track that provide access to both halves of the yard is slightly shorter.

I will try to answer your questions. The rest of my layout is about 45' long and between 6' and 15' wide. The yard area is going to come off at a right angle from one end of the layout.  I have a double main line around most of the perimeter. One of the tracks leading to the yard will branch off the main line. On the interior of the layout there are a couple of loops and some branches that lead to industrial areas. The other entrance to the yard is from one of the interior loops. I also have some upper level track that will travel to a mine and a logging operation.

I want to use the yard to make my layout more interactive.  For example, a locomotive could pick up some coal and logs and deliver them to the yard. Then one locomotive could pick up the coal and take it to a plant while another locomotive gets the logs and takes them to a sawmill. I would also like to have some extra track in the yard to use for storage.

I am not sure how a real yard operates. I put 2 yards in so I could back in a locomotive from either direction, drop off some cars and then pull out again. 

I like the idea of a drill track and some kind of engine service facility. Maybe I should have only one yard to make room for them.

Dave,

That's a good solution for eliminating the wye. I also like that it provides access to both halves of the yard. I have never used a wye switch and didn't think about the s-curve problems.

Wasn't sure if the center track was long enough for your longest engine, figured I'd post it for you to see if you could use it.

johnf posted:

I am not sure how a real yard operates. I put 2 yards in so I could back in a locomotive from either direction, drop off some cars and then pull out again. 

I like the idea of a drill track and some kind of engine service facility. Maybe I should have only one yard to make room for them.

For the area you have with no run around, the 2 yard concept is good.  Dave's modification gets rid of the S curve, which was needed, but has a curve going into the turntable.  While this is much better than the S curves, I would try to have a short section of straight track leading into the turntable.

Attached is a .pdf file (PDF viewers are free) I found on the web many years ago.  It is a short paper by Craig Bisgeier called "The Ten Commandments of Model Railroad Yard Design".  While you don't have room for the more prototypical yard discussed, you made find it good reading.

The curve into the TT is not needed. I just added it to more closely center the TT. Just substitute another 10" straight. I don't know where the whisker tracks will go in any of the versions though and I just noticed the TT needs to be rotated.

Ron,

Thanks for the yard design paper. It looks like it has some great information.

Dave,

I actually have room to extend the length by about 3 feet.  That would give me more room for the whisker tracks.

The Ten Commandments is a very good read. I would also highly recommend Andy Sperandeo's book on yards. The other mag publisher also has e-versions available of collections of Frank Ellision's and John Armstrong's articles on yards. I read through these over and over again before attempting a yard.  

The absolute key factor though, is not what others suggest but first determining and understanding the subtle and obvious mechanics of a yard and what you want from your yard. At that point, the suggestions made by others will be more worthwhile as you will know if they are getting you closer or farther from your goal. 

Peter

johnf posted:

I want to use the yard to make my layout more interactive.  For example, a locomotive could pick up some coal and logs and deliver them to the yard. Then one locomotive could pick up the coal and take it to a plant while another locomotive gets the logs and takes them to a sawmill. I would also like to have some extra track in the yard to use for storage.

I am not sure how a real yard operates. I put 2 yards in so I could back in a locomotive from either direction, drop off some cars and then pull out again. 

I like the idea of a drill track and some kind of engine service facility. Maybe I should have only one yard to make room for them.

You pretty much described how a real yard works.   I was playing around with the space given your TT, whisker tracks, desire for an engine servicing facility and 3' expansion, so take this for what it's worth.

Let me recommend a very good read on the subject as well.  Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong is very good at taking prototype railroad operations and translating them for use in model railroading.  I highly recommend it.  It has helped me immensely.

George

G3750 posted:

Let me recommend a very good read on the subject as well.  Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong is very good at taking prototype railroad operations and translating them for use in model railroading.  I highly recommend it.  It has helped me immensely.

George

George, thanks for posting the actual name of one of Armstrong's works.  Didn't have handy last night the two I referenced but here they are: Realistic Freight Operation by Fank Ellison and Freight Yards by John Armstrong.  Both are highly recommended, as they explain not only the shape of a yard (easy if you have space) but also how to create a yard tailored to not only your individual operational desires, but also one that gels with your style for ease of operation and how to do all this in different geometric shapes (what turnouts to use, where to place decoupling tracks, etc.) if your space is limited. 

Peter

PJB posted:

G3750 posted:

Let me recommend a very good read on the subject as well.  Track Planning for Realistic Operation by John Armstrong is very good at taking prototype railroad operations and translating them for use in model railroading.  I highly recommend it.  It has helped me immensely.

George

George, thanks for posting the actual name of one of Armstrong's works.  Didn't have handy last night the two I referenced but here they are: Realistic Freight Operation by Fank Ellison and Freight Yards by John Armstrong.  Both are highly recommended, as they explain not only the shape of a yard (easy if you have space) but also how to create a yard tailored to not only your individual operational desires, but also one that gels with your style for ease of operation and how to do all this in different geometric shapes (what turnouts to use, where to place decoupling tracks, etc.) if your space is limited. 

Peter

You are welcome.  I am looking at a new layout based on my old one and trying to incorporate some operational aspects, so this topic is of importance to me as well.

I've got a large yard planned as part of a steel mill, so accessing buildings / structures (blast furnace, Open Hearth, Blooming Mill, and Strip Steel) in a useful fashion is important.

George

One other thing I wanted to mention that helped me immensely, as I knew nothing about yards (other than appearance) when we started:

At first I thought about the yard as an accessory to the main line loops.  I think Armstrong made the point that a yard is a totally separate world.  When that finally sank in, I started creating yard diagrams, thinking about them as self-contained universes and not as an accessory.  I needed to be able to accomplish every single operational move exactly as a real train would, with no bending or breaking of real life rules, or infringing my main line to do so. For instance:

• Is the A/D track long enough to accept the trains I plan to run?  
• Is the drill track sufficiently long to pull that entire cut of cars in one move and then move them into classification tracks?  
• Can my locomotive drop off that train and either head back out onto the main or head to the maintenance area without a lot of fancy moves?  
• Can my switcher get everywhere it needs to without getting stuck anywhere?  

Kind of like working through every possible permutation of that newspaper maze game where you enter a maze at a designated opening, go down paths and then exit at another. Once I did that, it all became a lot more real and I appreciated much more the movements as well as my personal preferences of how I wanted to accomplish those movements.  Anyway, maybe this is obvious, but thought it might be helpful. 

Thanks to everyone for your suggestions. I would have made a lot of mistakes if I had just rushed into the project.

I ordered a couple of the books people recommended. I plan to read them and then take another stab at designing the yard. I will post my new design when I have it ready.

John

Along this line, one of the truly nice features of SCARM (and to a lesser extent RR-Track) is the simulation where you can actually run engines to make up and break down consists, etc., to see how your design might work.

You may actually have more space than you show.  You said that the this extension is coming off the end of your table and that you have a double main line.  It appears that you are using AtlasO or similarly complete track system. If O45 is the smallest diameter track that you can use the the outer loop of your double mainline could be O54.  This would give you additional "triangular"space along the outside edge of the yard that would let you extend the ladder tracks.  Moving the turntable to inside the curve can make room engine storage tracks.  You need a run-around so the switcher can assemble/disassemble a train.  You have enough of a yard lead so Rich won't get upset.

It would help if you could do 4-1/2 feet to keep things from falling off.  A bit far to reach over.  Any chance you could move the yard 18 inches from the wall?

Jan

FWIW, I like Jan's idea, though it doesn't include a service facility, etc. Unlike the designs up to this point, it allows a train coming in at the top to run through and then back cars into the slots as well as a train coming in from the bottom to simply back cars into the slots. Since the leftmost slots are short, they could be converted for engine servicing. Also, unless you plan to double park engines, the whisker tracks only have to be long enough for your engines. There's a reversing loop in there too.

Jan,

I like your ideas. You are right about the extra space in the upper left of the area. Moving the turntable also makes a lot of sense.

Right now the track at the upper part of the drawing will be far enough from the wall so I can squeeze through so reach will not be an issue. My problem is that the yard will be in an narrow area that is only about 7' wide. I may be able to extend the other side (bottom of drawing) by a few inches to help keep things from falling off.

Here's another take using all O-45.