Anyone using Furing strips for benchwork?

I tried it once, I wouldn't do it again. They are not uniform and they warp like crazy. Spend the money and buy good wood, you will be sorry if you skimp on bench work. 

I always suggest that people consider what they spend on their trains vs. what they will spend on their benchwork (or plywood or other layout materials).  Quality material that is straight and sound will make ALL of your trains run better and look better.  Cheap material that is mismatched (think dumpster diving), warped, split, etc. will make for uneven trackwork and probably derailments.  ALL of your trains will suffer.  Wood is cheap compared to the trains.  Don't skimp on it.

Off soapbox now. 

I actually disagree with Bob.  Your layout will be crashed on the floor long before you get to run any trains.   Now, jokes aside, he is giving you very sound advice, even if your layout is made to be portable, or just a starter layout.

My platform is basically a wall laying on horses. 2x4's on 16" centers, 3/4" plywood on them and then homasote on top of that.  If the ceiling were high enough I could dance on it and have no fear of collapse.

Fred

The quality of the strips depends on where you buy the strips.

There are places like Lowe's and Home Depot that have different levels of quality of wood strips.

It can work. You have to check all the wood.

Wood strips that are the same dimensions as furring strips can work for Modular Railroads that are 16" to 32" wide, where people can reach over them to the backdrop.

Andrew

I think that ,  done properly , 1" X  4" finished lumber will do just nicely . You just can't span large areas and think that they will work . Common sense will tell you that you need smaller spans between the legs , using an L shape at the corners and a T shape in the middle . Use stringers @ every two feet across the top . Do use good plywood for the top. Do not use furring strips . The 1" x 4" may have a tendency to warp ,depending on their moisture content and the humidity of the area you are installing it in , but so will 2" x 4"'s . I have built a 9' x 8' layout using this method that has been up for five years now and I have no problems . I do run a de-humidifier  there .Hope this helps , Jim

I think Tom is right to try the next grade down in lumber.  If done properly, #2 pine 1" x 4"s will give you the results you want.  When I mention properly, all I am saying is don't overstretch your spans.  Be mindful of where you place supports and braces.  These can help keep lesser grades of lumber from taking on a life of their own.  

I am a retired Master Carpenter.  Many times I was asked to make a silk purse from a sow's ear.  It's what divides the men from the boys in my trade.  

I used 1x3 furring strips for a Christmas layout. They were uneven and did warp some, but they worked fine for that purpose. That said, I'd never use them for a more permanent layout and certainly not for a modular one if I planned to take it apart at times. If the ends warp, it will be hard to join them again and align the track rails. I found enough straight ones, but by the time I actually used them, several had already warped. I "pulled" them back fairly straight during assembly, but I'd never want to do that for something permanent, and especially not for modules that will need to be put together.

While I agree with others who say not to scrimp on your benchwork, it's only natural to compare prices. However, even though the furring strips might save half the cost, I don't think the savings will be worth it in the long run, and I'm facing the same decision. In fact, I'm waiting for a reply from Mianne and that will be even more expensive. There's a reason no one uses inexpensive furring strips except maybe for small beginner's layouts, it just doesn't hold up. If you really want to save, considered reading Jim Barrett's series in OGR, particularly the Feb/Mar 2014 issue where he talks about using 1x3s with 1x2" plywood. If I don't use Mianne, that is what I'm going to do, it will just take me more time and work.

Thanks for those honest comments.  I will keep thinking on this one.

Another option would be to rip a 1 x 6, that will save nearly $2.00 for every 1 x 4 that I would purchase.

At our Lowes store, you can hand pick the best and straitest.  * foot lengths can be moved in my Camry.  If you get delivery, you usually get the dregs.  Oh, and delivery is now $75.  

Thanks...

Thanks for those honest comments.  I will keep thinking on this one.

Another option would be to rip a 1 x 6, that will save nearly $2.00 for every 1 x 4 that I would purchase.

At our Lowes store, you can hand pick the best and straitest.   8 foot lengths can be moved in my Camry.  If you get delivery, you usually get the dregs.  Oh, and delivery is now $75.  

Thanks...

Try ABC supply and Curtis Lumber in your area. Builder suppliers and lumber yards may have a better quality of the construction grade lumber.

Home Depot has a panel saw and will do the rips on the 1 x 6's for you. Take a small angle and make your cut start marks and allow for the blade.

My great-grandparents lived in your town. Visited many times when I was growing up.

One of the more overlooked platform materials is 60" X 60"  Birch multi-ply.  This is available at many real live non Lowes/HD lumber yards in 1/4", 1/2" & 3/4" thickness.  Most better yards will be able to rip to size.  Once most any cut is made it is easy for any one to transport it.  For modular construction it is a no brainer.  Use it for frame and decking.  Great for cookie cutter subroadbed.  Very strong.  Due to the engineered aspect of the product it will be very stable.  No tendency to warp like solid wood.  I use scrap shipping furring for kindling in my Quadra Fire wood stove. 

Here is a very rigid free form module made with one sheet deck of 5' X 5' X 1/2" multiply:

Has anyone tried to make their own "Mianne style" beams? Basically they are just miniature versions of the engineered trusses used in most wood-frame construction these days.

There isn't a whole lot of lumber in them, they are mostly hardboard with a little bit of poplar along the edges. They could be made on a good table saw although it would be a little bit of a fussy setup if you want truly uniform pieces.  Could definitely be done for less than Mianne prices. Of course, you would not get the fancy hardware and assembly would be much more work. 

I may try to build a few lengths just for the heck of it.

The next time I build a layout, I intend to purchase 3/4 inch plywood and have it ripped into 6 inch wide strips for the framework. In my area it is becoming more and more difficult to find lumber that is straight without any wane.

By the way, within the last month I had some hardboard cut at Lowes on their panel saw. First the guy tells me he cannot do a precision cut. I tell him that's OK, it will be better than what I can do with my portable circular saw. Then he tells me that Lowes now charges fifty cents a cut (and does). Next time I need lumber, I'll have to see what Home Depot is doing.
Our locally owned lumber yard won't do any cuts, free or for a fee. Too bad.

C W Burfle posted:

The next time I build a layout, I intend to purchase 3/4 inch plywood and have it ripped into 6 inch wide strips for the framework. In my area it is becoming more and more difficult to find lumber that is straight without any wane.

By the way, within the last month I had some hardboard cut at Lowes on their panel saw. First the guy tells me he cannot do a precision cut. I tell him that's OK, it will be better than what I can do with my portable circular saw. Then he tells me that Lowes now charges fifty cents a cut (and does). Next time I need lumber, I'll have to see what Home Depot is doing.
Our locally owned lumber yard won't do any cuts, free or for a fee. Too bad.

CW,

You need to check the saw setup. Mainly, measure the kerf of the blade. I take a small square and a tape measure to mark cut lines on the edge allowing for the kerf. It takes the responsibility out of the employees hands. They can set the blade to the line, on it, leave it or take it, depending how you set the marks.

I am not usually doing cabinet work, so this method gets acceptable results. I don't mind paying a $1 a cut. The time an straight cuts is worth it to me.

Tom Tee has convinced me on the 13- 3 1/2" x 8' frame members from a sheet. Stable and cost effective.

CW, our HD does 2 cuts for free, but the guy I talked didn't know how much more cuts would be, just that the fee was nominal, so I assumed something like $.50. He didn't work that department and I didn't have time to look for someone who did.

That said, why 6"? Most folks here who rip plywood seem to use 3", a good compromise between 1x3s and 1x4s. I figure I could get 15 strips, accounting for the kerf. That would add about $6.50 to the overall cost, but I'd have HD make the 2 free cuts in 16" widths just to make them easier to handle. Then I'd rip those into 3" strips myself to net me the 15 strips for less than $3.50 each (using their most expensive 3/4" plywood at $50/sheet). As long as you predrill holes and use the thinner trim screws, some folks say ripped plywood works well for framing.

That said, why 6"? Most folks here who rip plywood seem to use 3", a good compromise between 1x3s and 1x4s

The wider the board, the further apart the legs can be.

Anyone who has ever seen  Tom Tee's bench work  knows this fellow is a master builder. 

Tom Tee, the only price I found online for 5'x5'x1/2" birch here in Phoenix is Woodworkers Source for $36/sheet, 3/4" is $57. My layout design uses 30"x54" modules with 2 joined in 2 places to form 54"x60" sections that full 5'x5' sheets would be perfect for, but isn't that a little expensive? I guess one could say that it's only 2 sheets, so even if it costs more than 4x8 sheets at HD, it's still a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost to participate in this hobby. However, just like the cost of Mianne benchwork, all those "extra" costs do add up.

Tom Tee,

Did you use flexible plywood, "wiggle wood", for the curved portions of your module?

I ripped 3/4" birch plywood from HD onto 6 inch strips for the side panels of my modules.  I would loved to have a good furniture grade available.  I had to take a break for work after I ripped the plywood.  It is humid here and the strips warped before I got a chance to seal them.  I was able to square my modules by using opposing warped pieces and cross-bracing which I planned to do anyway.  The warping just complicated things.

For the next modules I'll special order better wood.

Jan

This is a steamed 3/4" piece of plywood wrapped around a 1 gallon paint can.  Get you wood hot and wet, position your core shapes,  clamp and let dry.

Use a moisture meter when purchasing wood.  Don't take home any wood from a lumber yard in the teen  moisture % .   I also use a mic to assure consistancy.  For tight custom curves I use a variety of approaches. Steam is a great way to bend any wood.  Wiggle wood can work if done properly, a mossiac (sp?) of pieces will work also plus a build up of 1/16" plywood layers.

My default member size is 3 1/2". it just works out well in most all areas.  I  have used 6" tall members when run over a 10 foot span.  The taller the side member the lower the head knocker.  Everything is a compromise.  I usually cantilever off the wall so leg spacing is not an issue.  On free standing work I built 8' modules and spaced the legs at the 2' & 6' location creating 4' spacing.  That made it easier  for one person to assemble a layout  without the modules flip flopping.

The above opinion.

Another choice would be something like Azek.  It's a PVC product used for almost any application in the building industry.  Mostly, however, for exterior trim, facia boards, decking, etc.  There are many other brands also.  You can cut it with any of the tools you'd use to work with wood.  It doesn't split, even when driving screws near the ends.  

It's not cheap, but if you plan your job well, is probably more cost effective than wood.  Wood warps, splits, is prone to problems with dampness and heavier than Azek.  I see Home Depot now has it in 4' x 8' x 1/2" thick sheets.  It bends easily.  Can be glued using the glue sold for it.  

Anyone familiar with Azek ? 

It bends easily.

If it bends easily, how could it be good for a train table? I've used composite materials to replace trim on my house. It's great for that application because it doesn't have to be strong, it serves no structural purpose.
I've built two decks: one using 5/4 inch pressure treated wood, and one using a composite decking product. I like the low maintenance idea of the composite product, but I don't know that I'd use it again. The pressure treated wood was fairly strong, and added strength and rigidity to the deck.  The composite product required a lot of blocking to create a solid deck.
If I did use it again, I'd certainly go with a heavier frame.

Azek is not a structural component.  Think Homosote. 

I use a lot of Azek for sofet/fascia/door/  window work on homes.  Fantastic product as intended.

Don't use firring.  It will offer no support. I can usually snap it with my hands.

What are you building? A flat table? L-Girder?  

If L-girder, rip those 1x6s and use the 1 x 1 3/4s as the top of the girder.  If wanting areas below the tracks, the 1 x 1 3/4s can also be used as joists alongside 1x4s.  I've don't this with dramatic results.  I would use 2x3 studs for legs - whole lot cheaper and perfectly stable.  Use adhesive - I like PL375 - don't buy the little gun. That was my mistake - I could have save $100 or more buying the big gun.

  One place you can save is you Dont really need plywood where the trains ain't going - you can cookie cutter plywood to the track (6" width) and use a lesser grade material in-between where you model - such as Masonite, Luan or foam. It adds to the work but it'll save you a lot on plywood in the end.

But don't cheap on the framework.

I have to disagree about not using Alek for open grid design train layouts.  But hey, that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.

Tom Burke posted:

.......................

At our Lowes store, you can hand pick the best and straitest.   8 foot lengths can be moved in my Camry.  If you get delivery, you usually get the dregs.  Oh, and delivery is now $75.   ......................

While it requires some coordination, I've rented a small U-Haul (pick other self move company here, if you prefer) van to buy large items (train wood or otherwise).  It's been a few years since I've done it, but the cost was less than $75, and I got to pick my own material out of the pile.  This may be easier if you can take a day off from work to do it, obviously the small rental vans are harder to schedule when most self movers are trying to get at them.

You of course first have to make sure the item you want is available.  It doesn't do any good to go to the home store with a truck if they don't have what you are looking for of a particular size lumber.  If there are multiple stores in your area, maybe scout with your car first earlier in the day (or night before, after work) to see what the overall inventory situation may be in terms of meeting what you need.

It may not be simple, depending on how much you need, but short of buying your own truck, it sounds like a good compromise solution that will eliminate you getting all the bent pieces the home store decides to deliver to you if you let them pick.

Jacobpauls1:

I wasn't planning on using small profile furring.  At Lowes they have 1 x 4 furring product.

Thanks...

Tom Burke posted:

Jacobpauls1:

I wasn't planning on using small profile furring.  At Lowes they have 1 x 4 furring product.

 

Thanks...

If you're really intent on using it, why not build one module and see how it turns out. Like I said, my cheap 1x3 frame held up well enough for my Christmas layout even though they were not all straight and there was some warping. There was also some breakage where there were large knots, but some of that might have been from the flexing when I moved it from the dining room to the garage and back a few times.

I don't know what your timeframe for construction is, but another option might be to buy the straightest piece you can find and let it sit for awhile to see what happens to it over time. 

The bottom line is that no one is going to suggest using furring grade lumber, even if it's 1x4s. Does that mean it won't work? No, it just means that experience says chances are higher that it won't work well. There's a reason why it's cheaper, so it's up to you to figure out if you're willing to deal with the potential problems.

BTW, how big of a layout are you planning to build? Is it going to be open grid or tabletop? If tabletop, are you planning to use 1/2" or 3/4" plywood or something else? If plywood, what grade? The cheapest they have or the 7-ply 3/4" birch everyone recommends? Will it be a permanent layout for you or a somewhat temporary layout for the kids? Is the space dry or subject to swings in humidity? I'm having a hard time too looking at $50 sheets of plywood and wondering if it's really necessary to spend that kind of money just to play with trains. I figure my layout is going to cost around $400 in plywood if I rip them into 3 1/2" strips for framing. Each 8' strip will run about $3.50. Is if really worth $1.50 per strip or about $150 overall if I'm willing to shell out $300-$500 for a single engine?

Thanks for all the neat idea's and comments.  Based on an overwhelming no to furring strips, that is scrapped.  

My layout is not huge but larger than a lot.  It will be 10' x 23' in a room built off the back of my garage.

I was planning open grid, which is easier to divide into modules.  Roadbed will be cookie cutter, except where I have a yard.  So it is not going to be flat.  Only two of the modules will be long at about 60" so those may need L-girder strenthening.

The room has a pellet stove, but is oftentimes unheated in the winter.  I will need to plan for increased stability and most probably will rip plywood.  The room is built up on piers so I can heat it faster with a warm insulated floor for those days when we get the -20 degree evenings here in the Adirondacks.

I have posted my 2-rail plans here on this forum previously.  In fact, you all helped me to perfect it.

Thank you for all the excellent comments.