Are things becoming to complicated?

I don't think so, my Legacy remote is easier to understand than my cell phone is.

The hobby is as complicated as one makes it.  Command control loco's will run under conventional (although not as well in my experience.)

Whether it be TMCC, DCS or DCC, I pretty much run with the basics and not worry about all the extra features.

Rusty

Whats an I pad?  Does it cover both eyes?

I can learn to operate a system, what I don't like is these expensive engines that you cannot get parts for. I think this is a much bigger problem than the controller. However that said I would not want a system that needs a hard cover book to learn to use.

It's a hobby, and can be as complicated as you allow it to be. 

You said it all Rusty Traque.  I ove conventional and have since 1948.  I am philosophically opposed to things that need batteries and programming.  I do not own a cell phone.  However, thanks to my two oldest kids, I have joined the 21st century and I know Legacy is in my future for the 3 grandkids who will probably pick up the remote and run the trains without a 240 page book in the same way my oldest kids played video games.  I used to ask them how they could play a game they had never seen or owned.  They could not explain it.  They are just hard wired that way.

The nice thing about being in a club, is that they have the legacy system on the layout.  I haven't upgraded from TMCC yet, but it has been fun being able to test the water without paying the $300 for the system.  I'm still on the border   We'll see.  I have never read the manual for it, but I'm slowly figuring things out playing around with it.

Not the way I do it, despite forum peer pressure.

Pete

YES.

If you want nice new stuff, larger expensive engines, modern high powered transformers, remote control, etc - it is becoming more and more complicated.

If you can settle for starter sets, used prewar / postwar, Williams, or non-electronic MPC and LTI then it is less complcated.

Maybe to the older generation who are used to running conventional, but its 2012 and the technology is only going to get better.

It can be pretty complicated if you allow it to be.  But there's sure something out there for everyone and anyone, from the most simple mechanisms and transformer control at relatively affordable prices to the highest-end and most sophisticated motive power and control systems.

My personal feeling--and it's strictly a personal feeling--is that the O gauge segment has been somewhat "over-engineered" over the past 15 or so years as some manufacturers strive to outdo each other in terms of the electronic gadgetry that is available.  There are two primary and competing digital control systems, and that is somewhat unfortunate even though it was also somewhat inevitable.  Both offer a tremendous variety of options, but my guess is that most hobbyists probably make use of only a handful of the available features.

I long advocated a "DCS Light" version, for example, and one eventually appeared, but it went a bit too far in the opposite direction and lacks some of what I feel are important mechanisms to make it something that would appeal to someone who is beyond the single starter set realm but not interested in a system with so many features (and a price) that such individuals may find unnecessary and cost prohibitive.

Mind you, I'm not complaining.  I want to see all of these fine manufacturers remain in business and supportive of our wonderful hobby.  I would be among the last to complain because I consider myself blessed to be able to enjoy the treasure trove that has been made available to us.  It wasn't like this in the 70s and 80s.

Its easy to me then again .. I am into computers gaming systems smart phones and so on ..

i think lionel is beginning to realize the complexity, hence all the videos.

Lionel needs to get an 'Entry Level' command system back on the market. Legacy is nice, but beginners aren't going to jump on a system that costs more than most train sets. You used to be able to get a Command Base/CAB-1 combo and PowerMaster brick for under $200.00, and the entry level folks bought lots of them. Not so with Legacy.

Can't make what you cant get parts for

Ans there is such a huge difference between the Standard TMCC functions and Legacy functions, its worth the difference

I agree Lionel needs to answer the entry level command control market but are things complicated? Probably not, most people don't read directions period and that would solve lots of problems, hence I believe the Lionel approach to providing videos is another medium to get folks to gain the wisdom to use the product. Amen!!!!!!

I don't think Legacy, other DCC systems, or model trains are that complicated.  I run conventional only because I deal with much digital control and software at work that I just don't want it at home: trains are an escape.  Friends that have the systems seem to have no problems without going to extremes of learning it (or consulting the ultimate authority on any computer system, a 12-year old).

Frankly, the real complexity I often run into is figuring out just what products manufacturers are offering.  How premium is this particular Premier loco, versus that other? Is scale really scale - sometimes yes, sometimes not quite.  The conventional Atlantic I bought from Lionel had all the detail and added on features (window glass, two figures, some added stuff) that comes with the Legacy version, even though the catalog said it would not have them; the conventional Mogul I bought from the same catalog, with almost identical wording on what it would have not, lacked all those "bonus" added on details . . . 

Hey, I prefer running my trains by pushing handles up and down! I had a TMCC layout, but it wore out its novelty for me. The simplicity of traditional operation is my escape from stress.

Tough question.

In my time I thought Color TV was the greatest when combined with the AM Ballgame. Just have to replace a vacuum tube once or twice a year.

Conventional control was easy enough. However it will take me a life time to understand electricity. I had the attitude that with sufficient wiring, you could have trains do whatever necessary. I was one of those who found Magazines a bit of dry reading when Command/DCC came out.

I was introduced to O Gauge sound engines at a show and though they were the greatest. However it would be a long time before I would own one. Now here I am with a small stable of engines on DCS (And the Book by Barry was one of the best resources besides these forums to learn it)

I probably will expand into Lionel at some point. I would hope by then O Scale will use a common format for sound and computer equipped engines as was done in HO.

It don't take much to run trains. I built computers over the years and tried to master the changing technology. I prefer to leave electronic repairs/rebuilds on engines to the Trained Techs. I have an engine set at a shop undergoing work right now on the east coast rather than risk it myself.

Going from Outside rail to center rail and two rail to three and back again over the years has been a good journey. However I grow discontented with China and with how much money it seems to take to ensure you got a engine you want... sight unseen.

I will always remember and hold on to the old ways of doing things. And choose carefully from a buffet of rather... overabundance of stuff. The recent talk of the O Gauge General in the Civil War era having radio comms is a example. (How could they be that stupid?) Then again.... such a topic will fill pages and pages.

I think the technology is a big attraction.

I was, like so many here, away from the hobby for many years, and returning to so many advancements makes it challenging for sure, but fun too. The sounds and smoke, not just the remote control is terrific, and little kids really enjoy that as well. This is a hobby that is competing with computers and gaming for the hobby dollar, but unlike other technical type hobbies, you can still play with clockwork or conventional electric trains if you choose. Nothing is obsolete.

But you wouldn't be caught dead with a Playstation 1.

Upon returning to the hobby 3 years ago, I initially resisted getting into command (although we had a TMCC set on hand from 12 years ago). I bought and used a Z4000 remote to have walk-around throttle ability and was happy with that,

I am not very technically savvy and was finally convinced to try the Cab1 by some of you guys.

After hooking up the one wire- I was surprised at how easy and fun it was to learn. About 6 months later we sprung for a DCS system from Jims' shop.  It was a little daunting at first but I ventured in slowly and am enjoying it immensely!

One of our club members has a huge collection and continues to add to it year round. He has several Legacy engines and many TMCC pieces as well but won't even try to use them.

Running these super reliable electric trains is far from "settling" to some of us.

In all honesty, kids find it easier to use legacy ( at least mine do) the touch screen with icons displaying each function is a "no brainer" no needing to remember what each number does or squinting to read a template. My 7 year old daughter can run my TMCC crane with the legacy controller without issue, legacy is that simple.Anyone can pick up legacy and address any loco like tmcc and run trains without even opening the manual. While I can't speak for DCS, I think alot of folks are "spooked" into thinking legacy is ultra complicated when in all reality its tmcc with more "bells" and more "whistles".

I like TMCC better.  I'm not on the right track to pay $ 500+ for a simple engine.  $1500 for a toy train locomotive to me is just not worth the cost.  I love my $ 150 TMCC geeps though.  And I don't see a big advantage in the Legacy system.  It is overcomplicated for the return you get.  And too darn expensive.    

 I run 2 rail DCS (and just added tmcc). I take 5 to ten engines and assemble a train. It takes a bit to add them to a DCS consist. When I'm done, each acts like their in a real train. They know they're supposed to run backwards or forwards, lights off or on, horn silent or etc....

I think to myself why I went to all this trouble. When those engines pull out the slack and accelerate in unison, I say "man, they nailed it". Now that's not for everyone.

 It sure ain't cheap.  It's way better than it ever was!

It seems some of you guys want less on the technology side. For me I want much more. I don't think Lionel or MTH have even scratched the surface of what can be done. Legacy is very easy to use as is dcs. I don't care how you run your tains, push them around for all I care. But you don't realize what you are missing when it comes to technology but to each it's own..

Maybe, we do...

Rusty

I "restarted" my O gauge hobby about 3 yrs ago after my wife convinced me that I needed a hobby and told me I should get my old (ca. 1950's) Lionel train fixed.

That led to a hobby shop, I asked about the newer control system, and promptly bought a Legacy system. Since then, my hobby has "exploded" in my wife's face (or rather, her decorating budget) with purchases of trains with incredible digital sound.

I like the newer digital systems, but I do wish there was a standard for them. I also really enjoy being able to control the trains while looking from a vantage point that is far from the transformers. I still run conventional during the holidays with my set-ups, and enjoy this as well. I think the Legacy remote control is as simple or complex as you want: Just turn the big red knob and the train goes, pull the lever and the horn/whistle blows. The more complex stuff is there if you want to get into it later. I kind of like having a remote control, and it's big enough that it is hard for me to lose in the seat cushions!

$0.02 from me...

Bruce

OK, some parts for the Cab-1 are noit made anymore.  But there should be aq supply of parts which can do the same thing!

You know they put the lectrical values in the first TMCC book.  If MTH took those codes  to work with the TIA, then somebody could make a new CAB-1.

Things are becoming too complicated for some of us in the older generation. I prefer command to conventional but often find hooking up switches etc causes me great frustration. As far as all the possibilities they include and even some of the new advances, they are problematic. Example: How many smoking engines can you run at one time and for how long before you have to leave the room or suffer the effects of smoke inhalation. I like to run six or more trains at a time and really need the smoke turned off if I want to stay in the room. Also do you really get to watch for the moving bell if you are running multiple trains at one time or do you really notice the details of the more expensive pieces while running trains or do you just pay attention to being the engineer and not really appreciate all those rivets and special details.

Larry S

Several of you above have asked for an 'entry Lionel Cab1 replacement for under $200'. Why not for under $50. Look at the many RC toys - especially RC helicopters! that include EVERYTHING you need to have fun for under $50.

It can be done....

All I want is a handheld remote, engines with LED lighting, diesel rumble or steam chuff, low, slow speed, and the ability to run more than 1 engine at a time separately from the others.

I don't want crew talk, freight yard sounds, station sounds, the ability to turn off lights or open doors.

I think Allan Miller said it best that the DCS "Light" system went too far backwards, primarily being able to run only 1 engine at a time.

Oh yeah, I want plug in modules so I can choose which system I want to use, and the ability to not plug a module in and run a single engine conventionally.

As far as hooking up and running DCS, it was a piece-o-cake.  Transformer to TIU, TIU to track.

Conventional was much the same way, Transformer to Powermaster, Powermaster to track.  Both use a handheld remote to control a train.

I don't use any form of command control. I got the proto sound for the basics.

However, I learn a lot quicker from having someone show me than reading manuals. My guess would be that if that happened, I'd take to it like a duck to water.

100% conventional runner here....it limits what I buy but WBB still has some items I want and I pick up some great deals used.

The most complicated thing I have ever seen is a wiring diagram for a large conventional layout with 4-5 cabs, lights, accessories, etc.  Now I understand that for some, that is a lot simpler than DCS or Legacy but I sure don't see how.

It really is as complicated as we decide to make it.

97 years ago i wonder if the forum would have been talking about the incompatibility of the old Flyer keys to the new c/w drive.

whatever is available to run on in another 100 years, i'd be willing to bet these will still work.  don't think i'd believe any similar claim regarding contemporary production.

cheers...gary