Are things becoming to complicated?

Good point there, Eric!

 

When one takes into account the amount of time, money, wire, and other items that goes into setting up a layout complete with with blocks, control panel, etc., it's kind of hard to make the argument that Legacy/TMCC or DCS is anywhere near as complicated.

"The most complicated thing I have ever seen is a wiring diagram for a large conventional layout with 4-5 cabs, lights, accessories, etc.  Now I understand that for some, that is a lot simpler than DCS or Legacy but I sure don't see how."

 

Many years ago (before command control), I attempted to wire my layout with insulated blocks, relays, etc. in an attemt to run more than one train on a single track.  Talk about complicated!   Without the advent of today's modern command control systems, I would have ditched the hobby altogether.  Once I got DCS, I had it hooked up and was running trains in a half hour.   I think some people just have an aversion to reading the instructions.

As complicated/involved/expensive a large block controlled layout woul be to build, there is little in the way of "vagueness" regarding the wiring/setup.  It's straight forward, well documented.  There are a lot of quirks/uncertainties with tmcc/legacy/dcs, particularly on large complicated layouts.  This is where these systems SHOULD shine.  Instead, we have magic light bulbs, ground planes, 300+ pages of documentation, etc.

Probably as complicated as this thing we are typing on and communicating on. I must admit I am not that good at either, but still having fun.

However, wiring blocks and a contol panel is a physical complication, something an average person can touch and feel their way through to assemble or locate a problem.

 

With all the voo-doo that goes on inside the electronics, unless one has some familiarity with sophisicated electronics, it's extremely difficult to know where to start or how bad the collateral damage is.  Especially, once the smoke is released.

 

Rusty

I can handle complicated.  I visited a local HO club layout and they handed me a DCC remote and I had it figured out (at least enough to run a train) in 30 seconds.  It's the cost that bothers me.  I just bought a Lionel USRA 0-8-0 on eBay for $70, new from a broken up starter set.  That same engine with nicer paint and TMCC is $600?!??!??!!?   Circuit boards are not that expensive.

 

When I can replace the e-unit in any locomotive with a Legacy receiver for $30 I'm there.  But I'm not paying an extra $200-400 PER ENGINE to have command.  Just ain't happening.

And, truth be told, you still need insulated sections where you can set passenger cars,  smoking work cabooses, a searchlight car or any car that you wouldn't want to sit idly on an energized 18 volt track.

Yes, the command control systems require more time than I like, and the seemingly continual upgrades, software, modules, techno-glitches galore, its somewhat junky in a way, but not unlike today's IT world where all this is the new norm.

Conventional, DCS, TMCC, Legacy? That's the beautiful thing about this hobby, it's like BK...you can have it your way. Don't like or fear command, stay with conventional then. All of the manaf...er... importers offer conventional as well as digital locomotives. I run DCS and TMCC and am now considering adding Legacy. I personally couldn't go back to conventional, too **** boring. The best way that I have found to learn a new technology or system is to just pick it up and play with it. Can it be frustrating? For sure! But the benefits FAR outweigh the occasional failure IMHO. Nothing is perfect nor idiot proof. Even the now mythical PW stuff produced by JLC had it's problems. I find it hilarious that the same people who drone on and on about the complexity of today's locos, how confusing company X's command system is, and how conventional is the only method of operation that anyone could ever need, do so from the keyboard of their computer or the touch screen of their smartphone. The bottom line is that if you have a low tolerance for frustration or fear anything more complicated than a calculator stick with conventional. If you find new technology interesting and challenging and can appreciate the new avenues of fun it provides in spite of the learning curve required or the occasional fried circuit board then go for it. But which ever way you decide to play with your toys, quit whining about the other way and just do it! Andy J.

Translated: "But if you turn your back on the new technologies you are a coward or a moron."

 

See what I mean by forum peer pressure?  I'm not seein' the tolerance here, bro.

 

Pete

Being kindred spirits as it relates to how we derive our enjoyment of the hobby, your point is well made Pete. 

I'm old enough to remember when all this tech was just a model railroaders' dream.  The only thing close to "hi-tech" command control back then was the GE Astrac system, which was fairly expensive relative to the trains back then.

 

So now the dream has come true with the various systems out there, a lot factory installed no less.  I have them, TMCC, DCS and DCC.  They all are indeed neat and the sounds can be fantastic.

 

However, I can enjoy my model railroading with or without all the bells and whistles. 

 

It's my perogative whether I choose to use the technology or not.  Sometimes I will, some times I won't.  So what?

 

Rusty

Out of the hobby for 25 years, back in last year; there have certainly been lots of advances during that time, to say the least.

 

Conventional is what I knew and loved as a kid--and even though I've been a software developer, programmer, and IT specialist over the last twenty years, I didn't want any of that in my trains.  Ultimately, the simplicity of conventional (and what amazing things can be done with a basic circuit of electricity) is one aspect of what I find appealing about the hobby... and the knowledge that I can pick up virtually any locomotive from the last hundred years and have it instantly and flawlessly integrate into my layout.

 

I do find it refreshing to see so many folks embracing all the technology... it will certainly be a vehicle to spur the growth of the hobby and appeal to the next generation.  Frankly, as soon as someone builds an app that lets you control everything from your iPhone (if there isn't one already), I guarantee we'll see a huge influx of new modelers.

Do you really burst out laughing at the thought of people using conventional control? 

 

The thing I find far from hilarious, more disturbing for lack of a better word is the need hobbyists have to disparage the choices of others. While I have't gone back and restudied every post in this thread, I seriously doubt any fan of conventional control has come back and called command operators stupid, afraid or hilarious in their approach to the hobby.

 

The conventional guys - myself included - usually have the same answers - it's more money or trouble than is worth it, or they enjoy the nostalgia factor, or having read endless reams of problems people have with command systems (including what is called by users "Magic light bulbs") realize command might be more work/frustration/complication than an otherwise relaxing hobby night warrant.

 

I enjoy trains today like I did 50 years ago - that's what works for me. It's not because I'm stupider than you, or I am sitting in a corner cowering in fear at the thought of introducing a new system.  

 

When I recently read the thread "What surprised you?" my first thought was the level of "elitism" which seems to run rampant through this hobby. However, since that thread is pretty much concentrated on "all of the great choices" throwing a Baby Ruth bar into the swimming pool didn't seem appropriate.

 

Why do people need to justify their own choices by putting down the choices of others? No non-modern/non-command/green grass paper or plywood hobbyist can express an opinion on any subject in this hobby without the inevitable condescending "Loop Runner"/"play with your toys"/"Fischer Price Roundy Round"/"plywood prairie"/"Legos"  put downs. 

 

There are many ways to enjoy this hobby. If they result in personal enjoyment - none of them are wrong - they're just different ways to get to the same end.

Hate to put it like this, but if it's too complicated you could be too old. My 5 yr old has no problems with TMCC or DCS. The point to understand is that he just uses the features that are important to him. He does the same with the iPad, iPhone, cable, DVR, BluRay, and Netflix... He knows how to do what he wants. He also enjoys running conventional trains because he likes the big transformer handle. The younger you are, the easier it is to learn. That's just the way it goes. What you need to do is just concentrate on the important bits. I use DCC for S and HO, but I am not am expert at it. You almost need to be an electrical engineer and be able to memorize a whole lot of functions. I bought the NCE system because it has buttons that say horn, bell, headlight, etc... That's about all I use out of the thousands of possibilities. There isn't anything wrong with just running some trains conventionally for a while to de-stress. It's supposed to be fun after all. I personally can't wait for the next gen platform when trains will interact with each other and accessories

AMEN Harry and Dewey!  I'm tethered to electronics for 8 hours a day, either a desktop or laptop computer, a cell phone, and now need to get a tablet.  I want simplicity when I relax.  I like my plywood, my loops with a figure 8 my plasticville buidings running my trains that all date from 1937 to 1987! 

 

As Lee Willis said in another thread.. " it makes the eight year old in me happY"

 

Kevin

As a child, I used to spend many weeks each summer at my grandparents summer cottage along the Juniata River in central Pennsylvania.  At that time they had an outhouse and no indoor plumbing.  One of my assigned duties each morning was to gather the chamber pots from each bedroom, take them to the outhouse and empty them and then rinse them out under the old hand pump just off the kitchen porch.  Trust me when I say that, when they had indoor plumbing put in, it was one of the happiest summers of my life.

 

And what does all this have to do with trains, you ask?  Well, first, the cottage sat within 50 yards of the old PRR Middle Division between Harrisburg and Altoona and watching the passing parade of PRR trains (and listening to them as I drifted off to sleep each night) was the genesis for my lifelong love of trains and railroading.  The second connection to the thread topic, is that you must embrace change and, when viewed in the proper perspective, appreciate it for the improvements it brings to your life. 

 

I can honestly say that, despite my occasional frustration with electronic things that mess up, running trains in 2012 is a heckuva lot more enjoyable to me than it was in the 1950's.

 

Curt

 

It is, as always, a matter of "different strokes for different folks."

 

Personally, I don't favor one kind of operation over any other, be it DCS, Legacy/TMCC, or conventional.  I now have worked with, and enjoyed, all three methods, and each has its advantages and limitations.

 

Being a somewhat old geezer now, I appreciate the ease of working with command control and the absence of a need to be crawling under the layout to do a lot of wiring, no matter how straightforward that wiring may be.  Besides, that's assuming I could even get under the layout since it's presently being used for storing a whole lot of trains and train boxes.

 

But there's sure nothing wrong with conventional control, which is what I have used on many layouts in many scales over a good number of years.  It provides a great learning experience in the fundamentals and is surely very reliable.

 

Nobody here should be claiming any kind of operational or other superiority over what is practiced by any other of our fellow hobbyists.  A hobby is all about choices, and there are ample choices available to everyone.

I have read and heard this for years. IMO it is not exactly the case - the amount of wiring may be greater. By the time I installed my SC2 switch controllers and BPC block power controllers I had a bit more wiring than I had when using the original switch track controllers and toggle switches (still needed panel mounted indicator lights.) Because of the more complex wiring around the SS2's and BPC's including a extra ground plane cable (for the SC2's) I decided not to add controllers for lighting and accessories.

Curt - Nothing personal, but your analogy is a pretty crappy one. (I couldn't resist)

 

When I was six years old in 1959, my father would think nothing of handing me a quarter and telling me to run up four blocks to the "paper store" and get him a pack of Phillies cigars. I'd drop that quarter in my pocket and run the four blocks up a Main Street to the store. Walk in and I could barely see over the counter. I'd tell Ernie my Daddy wanted a pack of Phillie Perfectos and he would get them for me and joke "Now don't go smoking them yourself" and he'd give me a pack of matches and throw in a piece of penny candy to boot.

 

I would walk back enjoying a piece of bubble gun and hand my Dad his cigars and change.

 

Forty years later I would not let my own kids off our front lawn when they were six. The world changed and kids walking the streets at six or seven o'clock at night just aren't very safe. That's part of the evolution of the world. But I really can't hang my hat on it as a reason everything should be the way it was 50 years ago, just like indoor plumbing coming to your grand parents doesn't mean that every change of the last 50 years should by embraced by every single person alive.

 

For people who like all that stuff, I am glad there is command control, as it keeps the hobby interesting for those who feel tube track and non command trains are boring. The presence of that buying power keeps companies that make stuff I like - structures and scenery and details, etc  - making new stuff to appeal to everybody - so even though I'll never own a command system or a modern locomotive, I feel the benefit of bring part of a more relevant hobby.

 I love it when the" I told you so"s pops up. They wait for the bad so they can justify things they have chosen.

 How about the old engines failing? I had a Tyco steamer when I was a kid. The darn thing would always derail! I had some fast racing set that both cars engines burned up before the Holidays were over. My parents blamed me. "you get one toy a year, now you've done it". As for Lionel, "that's too expensive for a toy".

 So I had to learn how to fix things when I should have been just playing. There were whole lists I had of toys failing. They weren't the good old days to me.

 When I tear into a modern loco for what ever reason, I appreciate the effort put into their development. They are really built to last. They hold grease in their metal casings with metal gears. No plastic short cuts. With all their techno advancements, they still run on just a transformer handle. Just for you guys who insist on them.

 So MTH has made some smaller systems that are less costly. Their standard DCS is not that high priced when and if your ready. Lionel pushed ahead with Legacy. Whether they develop a cheaper system may depend on how much gripe they see here. They'll have to put something in their new starter sets, or not. I doubt they go back to cab1.

My ideal is One-Gauge Clockwork.

 

So... you freely admit that poop trumps technology? 

 

Pete

 

Harry:

 

I wouldn't have passed that one up either. 

 

Don't get me wrong, there are many, many things I miss about the "way things were", not least is the story you note about how it used to be safe for us kids to run errands like that.  My point is, since there is very little I can do to prevent constant change, it is far less frustrating to me personally to accept it to whatever extent I like (or ignore, if I choose).  By way of example, I wouldn't give up the XM radio in my car for all the tea in China but, on the other hand, I refuse to buy a pair of dress shoes with squared off toes, no matter how trendy they might be.

 

Insofar as trains, I operate Lionel, MTH and WBB.  I run mine both conventional and with TMCC (the Lionel only).  I run with smoke and sounds on or off.  Despite liking the modern stuff though, at Christmas, I love nothing more than to turn the room lights off and lie by the Christmas tree watching one of my Postwar steam engines circling the tree on a single loop of track.

 

The great thing about trains as a hobby is that we can keep them either as simple or as complicated as we wish, depending on our changing moods.

 

Curt

Pete:

 

Hard to say.  I will note that I am amused now when walking around flea markets or antique shops and I see how "collectible" chamber pots have become.  So far, I've been able to resist trying to relive that little part of my childhood. 

 

Curt

 

I fail to understand why any of us have to "justify" the things we have chosen.  You take care of your trains, I'll tend to mine.

 

Pete

 

ps - When I was twelve years old I put up my American Flyers, hand-laid HO gauge track on the 4x8, and none of my Varneys, Athearns or Mantuas derailed.  I guess that's the difference between a modeler and a toy train buyer.

You all have obviously missed the point. If you had read through my thread and actually gotten to the bottom line, you would have seen where I said that conventional or command it doesn't really matter. The bottom line is to run your toys in any matter you see fit. I prefer command, but that's my choice. I would get bored standing in one spot. Again, my choice. I do find it amusing though that all of the complainers are using digital technology to give their 2 cents worth. Now the bottom line to this thread is command is not going to go away, trains will continue to fail and not be perfect everytime, if you don't like command don't waste your time with it, but quit bellyaching about it. It gets really old. Thank you. Andy J

Every day computers make people easier to use.

Well Said.  This is a HOBBY for Pete's sake!  It is not a zero-sum game where if I am right you must be wrong.  We can make different choices and all be "right".  Disparaging remarks because someone doesn't do things the way you would is not what I want to hear when I come somewhere to relax.  I want to leave all the stressful backbiting political horse manure at work.  Aren't we supposed to be "friends" here?   Ok...  at least "friendly".  

I wish Gandalf, I wish too.

An automatic transmission is more complex than a stick shift, yet it's easier to drive.  An iMac is far more complex than an IBM Selectric, yet easier to use and more reliable too.  But on the other hand, legions of photographers reject the modern digital wonders and shoot with half-century-old Leica rangefinders.  So one can choose what's important -- and that won't necessarily be the most technologically advanced.

 

I'm willing to throw away a computer, but I don't consider model/toy trains a disposable item -- depreciating asset, yes, but not worthless.  So I don't want to deal with batteries, fried boards, etc.  I just want it to run when I want to play.  It's a hobby -- and in my view shouldn't remotely resemble anything I would call "work".

Engineer Joe brought up something that I think is worth a moment.

 

A long time ago I had a Tyco as He did and it was the engine that almost had me say "It's just not worth it." It would be years later when I heard about the concept of designed failure so that you will have to go to the store again and purchase another. That ran against my grain, I have been raised in a home where the stuff dates to the 20's and still worked well. Today my Coffee Pot (Mr Coffee) does not last 22 months without burning up. The next time this one burns up, I am going to replace it with a older 50's or 60's model from the flea market.

 

The other side I discovered when buying a Athearn Blue Box kit for maybe a buck 75, and to learn the Kadee couplers and good trucks were a few dollars more. More than the kit was worth I was told. However if you wanted operation as realistically as possible, the Kadee and trucks were it. Not the horn hook as was common back then.

 

I also find that my thoughts and ideas change because Father Time is not always kind to wear and tear on the nerves, mind or body. It is not because we are stupid, but because we have limitations and refuse to allow it to stop our enjoyment of Life and the Hobby.

 

At the end of the day, trains are fun. Whatever scale (Yes that includes live steam) gauge or skill level. Every time I look at my Z4000 sitting tethered to the TIU and thence to the AIU, I am reminded that some things never change.

 

Cheers.

If you that's what you really wish shouldn't you have tempered your remarks?  Do you even understand what you really said?

 

I'm only askin'.

 

Pete

 

Something I've enjoyed with command is being able to sit in an office chair which puts me slightly above eye level to the layout and rolling myself alongside a locomotive watching the movement and listening to the myriad of sounds emanating from it. I can slow to a crawl, ring the bell and blow the whistle as we approach a station or crossing and feel like I'm inside the cab...

For me personally, command has greatly expanded my enjoyment and appreciation of my trains. And on the other hand, sitting on the floor at Christmas with a handle in hand sure brings back wonderful memories!

I'm thankful for both...

Pete, I agree about you on one point, I should that used the word "ironic" instead of "hilarious" (I had just woke up when I wrote it). Mea culpa. But again Pete I refer to the conclusion of my sleepy diatribe, "quit whining about it" (conventional versus command) "and just do it".

If everyone who commented missed the point, it's a fair bet the point was not well made. 

 

Likewise, what I read in the comment about being "amused" is that people who don't embrace new technology in toy trains should either forsake all other technological advancements in the world, like computers and Smart Phones or be the target of your amusement.

 

 

 

"Sleepy diatribe" or not, I'm sorry to have to note that you are the only one who appears to be whining.  Talk about irony.

 

Pete

Not whining Pete, it's not the way I roll, just a little tired of conventional guys knocking command and command guys knocking conventional. Trying to hopefully wake some people up to it's pettiness and downright silliness. Remember, we're talking about kids toys, not brain surgery. In the end, nobody gives a s--t. Have a good one. Andy J.

Are things becoming too complicated?  Referring to modern technology... Some people can use it, some can not.  Some people can understand it, some can not.  Some people need it, some do not.  Some people can afford new gadgets, I can NOT.  Social Security sure can cramp your style.  But if you can afford & use new technology, it sure can help the handicap (depending on the level of restriction).

Listen son.  I've been working with and adapting to technology changes since the mid 1970's when the world still ran on Hollerith or Univac punch cards, memory was little magnetic doughnuts with three wires running through them (select, read, write) and 16K of memory was considered huge.

 

Every time I've changed jobs, (computer repair to telecommunications research to industrial controls repair,) virtually nothing from the previous job applied and I continued to adapt, right up to my present position.

 

I've experienced how technology over the decades has made many things better.  I love the fact that the electronics in my car helps get me better mileage and eliminates the need for bi-annual tune-ups.

 

But, I didn't get a cell phone (not an i-phone or android) until I felt I absolutely needed one.  No movies, pictures, music, internet, etc.  Just a phone...  I make and receive calls on it.

 

Almost every day at work or on the street, I see people who can't seem to get their noses out of their electronic navels.  Sometimes it seems these "new avenues of fun" are just distractions for lives lacking.

 

So, while I may use some of this technology, you'll have to forgive me if I don't go jumping on the latest tech bandwagon.

 

I will use or not the technology as I see fit.  I will not allow it to use me.

 

Rusty