Been a long time, but finally motivated to get in gear UPDATE Shively yard is operational?

The only thing I can think of to note is I think the LW variable action might be on U , making certain acc voltage combos unusable on it; forcing use of one or the other for acc voltages... (might be the TW I'm thinking of though)

Is the present old track now run worthy?

Note tubular is still available to fill the old space with new flat rails too. (I assume the old rails warped some from the wood moving. Remounting flat rails might prevent need for a tabletop swap too.

Menards offers a decent Lionel-ish O track for cheap, GGraves may make a sectional style track that mirrors the dia too..? You can bend the flex down to 0-31 but it's kinda hard for some folk to go under 36" bends.

New track is awesomely better for running than "good enough" old track cleaned up. You need to try it to realize it. (I run 90% 50+ year old, well used track, but that is changing slowly.)

Adriatic posted:

The only thing I can think of to note is I think the LW variable action might be on U , making certain acc voltage combos unusable on it; forcing use of one or the other for acc voltages... (might be the TW I'm thinking of though)

I think you are right, and it's both of them.  (I just checked the Greenberg Repair and Operating Manual to confirm)

It was suggested to me a long time ago (probably by my dad) that the way to remember this is that any of the controllers with multiple throttle controls had the U as common and any with just a single control had the A as common.  I'm not sure if that holds true for every transformer they ever made, but it holds true for some of the most popular ones (LW, KW, TW, V, VW, Z, ZW).

-Dave

Another suggestion would be to reconsider going with 072 in case you decide you want to run some of the bigger articulated locomotives 

Thanks for the feedback on the transformers.  The way I've got it figured the LW (the YELLOW transformer) will be dedicated to switches, accessories and, from time to time, running a single-motor train on the green loop.  The KW (red transformer in my sketch) will be doing the heavy lifts on running 2 trains.

As for 072, would love to, but space doesn't allow. for what we want.  All of our equipment (including some of the MTH premier Superliner cars) should do fine on 054, and I can pretty much guarantee that we'll never have the budget to plunk down for a loco that absolutely requires 072 to run on.  If we did, then we'd be expanding the layout at the same time!

We're going to see how the existing 1950's era Lionel track works for the blue (figure 8 loop).  IF it gives us too many fits, we can change it out.

BTW, we measured the "B" siding and my 4 car Amtrak Superliner set, Premier FP40 and baggage car come in 1" under the available parking length! (Wasn't luck, we planned it that way!)

Just an update...with Dad at home for the quarantine in KY, and me working from home in Florida, we've been on Skype a few hours a week working on the preparing the layout area. Dad's made progress and cleaned up the basement and now the area is about ready to start buildout.

He's also upped the budget a bit and we now have permission from the High Authority of the Household to bust through a divider wall into the "living" area of the basement for a yard / train storage.  Kind of necessary with all the rolling stock I've accumulated through various methods over the past few months.

So here's an updated LO, with the outer passing spur extending all the way around half of the main line. And the main line (yellow / cyan / pink) loop has been given a 4% grade to pass over a turnout from the inner loop across a bridge.  This layout allows running 3 independent trains (with a separate KW not shown yet) on the GREEN inner loop, the Blue/Gray figure 8 and the yellow main loop.  We can reverse direction from any loop, transition from outer to inner, and have direct yard access from both outer and inner loops.  If we just run 2 trains, we can configure the inner loop to run across the red spur line and will indefinitely run by itself whit no outside input and will run around the figure 8 the opposite way each time (due to the non-derail setup).

I'm pretty happy with the options of this configuration!

Also figured out how to use a 3P3T switch to rearrange the power districts more easily for when we want to access the orange yard from either the outer or inner loop.  Center position is "Run" and a separate LW transformer has full control of the yard.  If we want to switch from outer loop to yard, the switch is thrown to the upper position which kills the LW and feeds the yard from the A handle of the KW.  If we access yard from the inner loop (run from the B handle), then it kills power the other way and takes over the orange yard.

Since the feeder line to the Yard passes through a wall, I'm wiring a bell to the ground loop of the last 40" section of track to warn switchers working with the LW of impending doom if they don't stop.

The electrical stuff you see is not the switches, it's separate drops to individual insulated parts of the layout.  For the most part, all the SPST switches from the A or B mains on the KW will remain in the closed position, but we do anticipate some times where we need to isolate individual sections.

Switches and accessories are all on a dedicated separate transformer (probably another KW).

Half the fun of the layouts is planning, isn't it?

That it is, it looks good, hope you don't have to wait too long to get it up and running.

4% is pretty steep. You may want to try setting up a 4% with extra track to test your locos, with loads, against the grade.    Grades also require a hands on approach; no kicking the feet up to simply watch them loop. (not without command, step down/up blocks, or blocks with separate throttles  anyhow)

Adriatic posted:

4% is pretty steep. You may want to try setting up a 4% with extra track to test your locos, with loads, against the grade.    Grades also require a hands on approach; no kicking the feet up to simply watch them loop. (not without command, step down/up blocks, or blocks with separate throttles  anyhow)

I've seen all sorts of arguments and loooooong threads about grades.

I know from my own experience as a kid that we used to run figure 8's with a crossover that was WAY steeper than 4%.  And all around a curve, no less. After reading through this forum, watching videos, and scouring other model train sites, I'm pretty comfortable with the 4%

Backup plan, if we don't like dealing with "actively" running the trains since it's all conventional, we are just eliminating the redundant switch under the bridge and lowering the bridge to something manageable.  At that point, the grade will be just for looks,but that's fine since the second switch doesn't really add that much functionality to the layout.  It's more of a convenience to get off the inside line in either direction without having to go around the inside reverse loop first.

Thanks for the tip, though,

So the basement is cleaned out, and construction begins in earnest...

Let the good times roll.

This is going to be a fun build to follow.  We are getting early which is a huge advantage for anybody that is looking for a little motivation to get started.  I am sure that the OP will provide many pictures along the way.

Best of luck Jeff.

Managed to turn a bunch of lumber into a giant table over the weekend. It was a long weekend, mostly doing all the cutting and construction myself.

My two boys did provide some much-needed muscle to move the lumber around and to bring finished parts from the garage to the basement. And they were invaluable on clean-up duty.

Dad is recovering well and managed to get involved in the installation, helping me with measurements and clamps and squares.

So the framework is all in now. We put the table tops on loosely, but we're currently going back and forth on whether we want homasote or if we should put in a drop ceiling for noise. Obviously want that in before fastening down the table tops, so we're in a holding pattern while dad gets some pricing.

Dad made it clear to me that he wants this layout to be "a giant toy train" and not a finely detailed scale model. So we will probably paint the table top, but there is not going to be a ton of scenic work beyond the couple dozen plasticville buildings and accessories that Dad has.

You have lots of space to create your RR empire, lookin' good!

It is amazing what can be done in a short time when you have a crew to help out.  I'm sure Dad is doing what he is able, and the boys certainly are a help.  How old are your boys and how much enthusiasm do they have for the project?  I know you and your dad are on board.  I can appreciate such great quality time for 3 generations!!!!!!!!!     I've always been alone in the hobby.

If you are thinking about backdrops, do it now.

@Mark Boyce: The boys are 17 and 13.  They've got a passing interest, and are handy when I ask them to be, but it's definitely not a "passion" for them, as they will generally spend just enough time with it to make me and grandpa happy that they're participating (though they do it with a smile, which I appreciate).  Dad made a big proclamation to everyone this weekend, made sure they were all there to hear it.  It was something like "From the time I was nine years old and got my first Lionel train, I've always dreamed of a big layout with lots of trains running that could fill an entire room.  I'm 73 now, and partly thanks to you boys,  I finally get to see that dream happen!" It got a couple of smiles and hugs out of them (which doesn't happen often enough with teenagers).

I also have 2 younger girls, one in particular is really excited to help me out with my engines and rolling stock and has spent many hours with me cleaning, repairing and even decorating anything with wheels.  I'm soaking it all up.

@Freight Train Jim: Yes, absolutely.  I've looked at some of the offerings that forum sponsors have, and I've talked to dad about it.  Not sure if we want to go with something custom that interests dad and me (maybe some kind of backdrop of Louisville, dad's home town) or amusement park / industry...Just not sure what to do or what fits in the budget.  Track and switches are expensive...

Jeff, Your dad's build and what I can see of his face reminds me of my late father-in-law who passed on at age 75.  I think the boys' reaction to his comments was huge!!!  They sound like good kids.  I kind of sound like your dad, I'm finally building my first layout since our older daughter was a baby (she's 29 now).  It is also my first 'big' layout in an 11x11 room.    I have most of the hard work done, and it's a good thing.  Turning 64 on Election Day, my joints and muscles feel it.    Your dad will remember these moments as long as he lives, I know you will!  That's great your daughter has some interest!

I agree with Jim.  I didn't need as much backdrop as you will need if you are going to make it go all around the walls.  I happened to look at the OGR Forum for sale items at the right time.  A fellow Forum member not far away was selling a backdrop he paid an artist to paint on hardboard since he was moving from his house to a condo, and he wanted to go with a custom photography backdrop on his new layout.  I had to cut it up, but it has worked pretty well.  I have one section to paint to blend in as best as I can.  Our older daughter will help me pick the colors and get started once she finishes some other projects.  If it hadn't been for the custom painted backdrop that was available at a discount, I would have continued looking at commercial offerings, unless I could have coerced my daughter to help me get started.    Yes, budget is a big concern for average family guys like us.    I'm looking forward to seeing what you and your family come up with!!!!

Jeff, what an exciting opportunity for the three generations. Perhaps you can get the kids involved with some of the planning and executing. There is a lot of basic wiring to be done under the table for which they have greater flexibility. My advice would be that you need to be patient and teach them the why and the how. Mistakes will be made but that is how we all learn. Keep in mind that it is always easier, and quicker, for the adult to do the task. That teaches nothing and the kids loose interest.
Have great time.

Jay

@Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy posted:

I've seen all sorts of arguments and loooooong threads about grades.

I know from my own experience as a kid that we used to run figure 8's with a crossover that was WAY steeper than 4%.  And all around a curve, no less. After reading through this forum, watching videos, and scouring other model train sites, I'm pretty comfortable with the 4%

Backup plan, if we don't like dealing with "actively" running the trains since it's all conventional, we are just eliminating the redundant switch under the bridge and lowering the bridge to something manageable.  At that point, the grade will be just for looks,but that's fine since the second switch doesn't really add that much functionality to the layout.  It's more of a convenience to get off the inside line in either direction without having to go around the inside reverse loop first.

Thanks for the tip, though,

I just saw this.  My current layout in the 11x11 room has two 4% grades.  So far it has been fine.  I don't plan to run very long trains in an 11x11 room, but I also have been able to doublehead/lashup 2 pair of 2 engines with my DCS in case I want to run a longer train for fun.  Wow, that sure makes a difference over the old days.  I got command control 5 years ago, but am only now getting to put it to the test.

Moving along!  Track is getting roughed in.  Dad's been doing most of this stage of construction himself and I've been helping him from Skype.  He sent the attached photos last night.

We're skipping any roadbed underneath.  Dad's happy with the results of sitting on homasote alone.  Once we get the track roughed in and all the gaps filled with cut pieces, we're pulling it all up going to paint a dark gray "roadbed" beneath.

The green and brown paint job looks very natural, and is courtesy (at least part of it)of my 9 year old daughter.  We'll add details as the town gets built.  Dad's got about 15 Plasticville buildings and accessories in storage that will fill the interior of the "Louisville Loop".  That's the end of the layout with the 054 outer loop and single 031 inner loop.

The other end (with the figure 8) is the "Cincinnati Loop".  The straight area between is the railroad corridor that roughly follows I-71 between Cincinnati and Louisville through Carrolton, KY.  My buddy is going to eventually paint an abstract backdrop that wraps the whole back wall and will include features of Cincy at one end and Louisville at the other.

There is a 6 inch raised grade that passes over the 031 turnout on the Cincinnati loop.  It's not built yet, but the tack is still located for planning purposes.

I didn't think I would like it at first, but I really dig the tubular inner loops and the Gargraves outer loops.  Neat sort of way to identify the different controlled loops really quickly.

Wow, it must be very exciting to being ready to get back. When I look at the space you have to work with, how much trackage, switches and planning for where things will go, I think you are one lucky guy. How many layouts have you built and are you willing to share some pix of those? I bet there's some very cool stuff you've done. PS: heh-heh - are you a west Coaster guy, or an east Coaster guy?

Jeff, Your daughter did a great job painting.  The plan to paint in a gray roadbed underneath where the track will be sounds like a great idea.  Your dad's Plasticville should look right at home.  The backdrop your friend will paint sounds great too!

@Virginian65: this is our first real layout, unless you count 027 ovals taking up half the dining room table.

But we've put a ton of planning into this one to make sure it goes smoothly and offers enough action for us. We're not "switching" on this layout, it's a sort of multi-directional "looping" with interesting reversals and crossovers. We were careful to make sure we could access the yard from any loop, that the yard area and passing siding are long enough for us to run the longest train we could imagine, and we can reverse any train in any loop with some planning.

If you check the start date of this thread, we actually sketched out or first ideas together over Skype back in February. I've since moved back to Cincinnati and have been able to support the effort in person as much as I can.

Thanks for the compliments!

PS: not really a "west" or "east" thing. More of a "roller" thing.

Quick update, most of the track is now screwed down with all power drops and various switch wires. We started wiring today, and I snapped a photo off dad working out how to arrange the switch toggles at the control panel so I can build it for him.

This photo is 100% dad, I can hear his brain working over the sounds of football and the hum of a test transformer plugged in behind us.

It's not interesting from a train standpoint, but it's one of my favorite pictures of dad now. In the background you can see one of our MTH Premier superliner cars that he's been using to verify clearances to adjacent tracks and structures. In the foreground you can see his various snacks and brain food. On the table in the center is the block plan.

Great job and fun story......looking forward to updates!

Peter

This is a great story @Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy.  I'm building basement layout 2.0 right now and miss having my dad around t help me. He passed away a little over three years ago. Built layout 1.0 with him every step of the way and wish we'd have taken more pictures like you're doing.

Looks great Jeff. Sounds like a family affair. Enjoy!

Bob

I don't know if it's too late, but I would think that putting down some carpet squares would be nice on your feet.  I'm clearing out half my garage for my future layout and that's what I am planning.

Thanks guys, I'm really enjoying this.

@Frank Mulligan: it's hard to see, but we actually have a very thick area rug covering the whole operators area in the middle of the layout. It was from my childhood bedroom, and we uncovered it as we cleared out the storage area a couple months ago. I argued to toss it in the dumpster, but dad suggested that we might be able to use it down the line.

Turns out it fit perfectly under the center work area. Glad I let the old man with an argument every once in a while!

My train room addition is in the process of being built. So far the crawl space under it is done and the sub floor was just installed. So, I had to go out and tape off the dimensions for my layout. The tape will be gone shortly because we will be getting rain and next week the framing and trusses go up. But, I just had to do it.

Jay

@Jeff_the_Coaster_Guy posted:

This photo is 100% dad, I can hear his brain working over the sounds of football and the hum of a test transformer plugged in behind us.

It really warms my heart you and your son are able to work with your dad on this layout!!  Excellent photograph!!

Today we built the approach to the overpass coming from the Louisville side. I saw in a previous thread someone suggested cutting out the homasote to allow the grade to follow all the way to flush, and it worked great!

The gradient is variable all the way through. Starts at zero, gradually rises to just under 5 percent in the straight, then drops down to around 3 percent just prior to the curve. I kept the grade through the curve at around 3, then tapers off to zero at the bridge (haven't built the curve yet).

We set up the transformer and ran a few big locos up and down and it was smooth sailing.

Jeff, it looks great!  Are you folks cutting out those great looking supports for the grade Yourselves?  What wood are they made from?

@Mark Boyce: we're cutting the wood elements from leftover 1x4 we used for the table framing and from ripping strips of plywood from the original base that Dad's 1952 set was on (so it lives on in the new layout!)

Yesterday we continued work on the ramp, connecting to the existing grade through the curve. But we really dove into electrical work today as well, including getting the control panel mostly wired up.

Although we had hoped to be more or less done with track and electrical by Thanksgiving, I think we figured it was an awfully aggressive goal. So now it's Christmas...

Jeff, Thank you!  I thought they were probably home cutout.  That is great you are using wood from Dad's old layout!  He looks like he is really getting into it in the photographs!  It warms y=my hear everytime I see your photographs of him and knowing the generations are collaborating on a great project!  My dad is 90 and has been in a personal care home for 3 years.  When we were cleaning out the house I found a section of plywood from the original HO layout I built in the late '60 sitting on a shelf in Dad's pump house.  It still had the sawdust grass clued on and gray paint for a road.  He left me to my layouts by myself, but I used the skills he taught me to build it.

Jeff the grade looks very impressive. I’m going to keep that in mind for my grades.

Jeff,

I was just looking through some of your build progress.  You have a neat layout really taking shape.  I think it is so cool that you have 3 generations working on a layout together.  I can see the joy from your dad in the pictures.  My dad has helped me on my layout and my young kids are getting into it with helping me now.  Keep up the great work!  Looking forward to following your progress!

Michael

@Michael Cimba 040217 Thanks, it's been a great stress reliever!

Update, got some trains running on the Cincinnati side!

The grade on both sides is tracked and wired, and we've managed to test some longer passenger consists.  I know there's hand-wringing on this board about steep grades, but I can tell you the way we have this ~4-5% setup works just fine.  The Bantam Railking loco effortlessly pulls 6 lighted cars over the grade with energy to spare.  Gets a little dicey on the downhill side...need to be ready to throttle down quick!  And Dad's postwar 736 managed to pull 7 PW and (lightweight) MPC cars up and down, although it worked a bit harder and we did get a bit of wheel slip a couple times.

Also had one of our first accidents.  Dad is getting used to the KW and its odd handle setup and powering two separate lines.  Had an accidental uncoupling of the passenger cars from the tender and instead of throttling back or toggling off the power district, dad threw it full open with almost catastrophic results and certain carnage.  Fortunately, he flipped it around just in time and the cars derailed but thankfully remained coupled.  Although there were probably injuries on board.  (Photo attached!)

While dad did some troubleshooting on 022 switches, I built the panel that will hold the toggles and LEDs for the turnout indicators.  I put together and tested the cheap little toggle switches with the LEDs that @MED and a couple other folks helped out with on this thread.  Super simple and worked like a champ!

Learning the controls...

...but not learning quickly enough!

I hope everyone is OK!

And a look at the complete riser / trestle For the grade on the near side, we modified the standard Lionel trestle set for closer spacing and with variable height ledgers and footings that we cut from leftover wood.  Turned out nicer than I thought it would.  There will eventually be a truss bridge over the crossover.