Benchwork (Phase-1) is done, now need some track plan design advice.

Nice bench work, Rick. Do you plan on covering your fiberglass insulation? Now would be a good time before you start building on the bench work. I once had a layout under exposed fiberglass and as it aged, it would really shed glass dust particles, especially when there was someone walking upstairs. I didn't notice it until I took photographs with a flash. In every picture the flash reflected off hundreds of glass particles floating down from above. The older the insulation got, the worse it got. I began to worry about breathing it, so I stapled up 3' wide lengths of material that comes off a roll in fabric stores. I used white, but your ceiling would probably look good in ski blue to match your walls.

Rick,

Many of us do not have Right Track program.  Is it possible to export a picture from that file so we can see what your plan looks like?

Chuck

Here you go, Chuck, thought I'd save Rick the trouble. FWIW, the RR-Track grid is 12", so it looks like a 12.5'x24' space if I counted right.

Thanks for the suggestion, Dave. I should probably get the ceiling covered, but really don't have the extra funds at the time. I've been running trains under that insulation for 10yrs, and haven't noticed any fibers. I have the usual amount of dust, but it doesn't seem to be glass fiber.

Chuck, I've attached a pic of the RR-Track file, for anyone that would like to take a look. Thanks for pointing that out!

I appreciate the input fellas!

Rick

DoubleDaz is correct, 12.5x24 feet. Thanks for posting the pic DoubleDaz! BTW, I'm retired Army! Thanks for your service, brother!

You're welcome Rick, same to you. Funny, I didn't realize the photo was cropped. That's all I saw when I opened the RRT file and didn't think to reset the display to see if there was more in the space.

Nice work fellas 

RickA1,

Hi.

When I am viewing it as is, I am assuming expansion would be to the left of the plan. So, when I am thinking of some variations back into the closed end, this view is blocking me. LOL. Looking in from the wall side is hard for me to visualize what a viewer will see. The photo helps.

I think I would like a view from the left of photo towards the long wall and perhaps some view of where that may go.

Edit: I just hit the Home view and had an epiphany. 3D rotation has liberated my imagination.

My thoughts went to elevating the outside line into the closed end up and down the other short wall. Perhaps, only 4" for visual effect. Then, do something different with the inside line.

Is there a garage entrance to contend with?

Are the support pillar dimensions accurate?

Is there a target center rail spacing that you desire? I see that it varies. What's your minimum?

It's a great space and I like the approach with the modules.

Do you have any ideas for the location of the walk-in area?

Carl, thanks for taking a look! Great questions!

There is no garage entrance. The shaded area is the footprint of the unexcavated area under the garage. Those are solid, block walls, with a 2' stub-wall protruding down from the lower left corner.

There are two 4" tubular support pillars to contend with that are outside of the "Phase-1" area I'm now working with. I will need to work around them as I expand into the rest of the basement.

I'd like to make sure I have enough space for larger locos and rolling stock. I think I was shooting for ~4" when I whipped up the two loop concept in the pic. I'm not dead set on that, but figured that would provide enough separation. It's wider on the curves, to allow for overhang, but I didn't really have a set spacing on the curves, it just sort of worked out that way when using the track I have on hand.

I have built modules, or sectional layouts before, and I like the flexibility. This also allows for easy expansion in the years to come. As I work around the basement, I can repurpose many of the sections to other parts of the basement, and save time and money. I have a standard way of building the sections that speeds up the process.

As far as the walk in area, right now, and I should have mentioned this in my original post, there is a 2'x4' lift gate in the short section at the top left of the plan, just to the left of the stub-wall. When my plan is complete, there will be no need for bridges, gates, or duck-unders. The layout will, for the most part, follow the perimeter walls of the basement. Entrance to the area will be via the stairs, which exit at the point labeled "stairs up". You enter the basement at the bottom of the stairs there.

Right now, I'm focusing on the area where the benchwork is complete- Phase-1. I'm just not sure how to adapt that two mainline concept, to make room for accessories, sidings, and well, more fun!

Thanks!

Rick . . .

Suggestion:  Consider purchasing a copy of John Armstrong's Track Planning for Realistic Operations or Creative Layout Design, or both.  Although I'm currently selling both on eBay, I'm including a link to them since their tables of contents are provided there for you to peruse.

Track Planning for Realistic Operations contains many, many track diagrams for freight, passenger, engine service, industrial, etc. operations.

Such books may help you better identify and define the elements in your current project that you wish to include.

In any case, good luck with your project--you've got some real pros helping you.

I've added the location of support posts, and noted the lift gate and location of it's hinges.

Carl, I have them both! I'll look into those. I haven't opened them for a long time.

Thanks!

ricka1 posted:

Carl, I have them both! I'll look into those. I haven't opened them for a long time.

Thanks!

Good Man, Rick!

ricka1 posted:

Carl, thanks for taking a look! Great questions!

There is no garage entrance. The shaded area is the footprint of the unexcavated area under the garage. Those are solid, block walls, with a 2' stub-wall protruding down from the lower left corner.

There are two 4" tubular support pillars to contend with that are outside of the "Phase-1" area I'm now working with. I will need to work around them as I expand into the rest of the basement.

I'd like to make sure I have enough space for larger locos and rolling stock. I think I was shooting for ~4" when I whipped up the two loop concept in the pic. I'm not dead set on that, but figured that would provide enough separation. It's wider on the curves, to allow for overhang, but I didn't really have a set spacing on the curves, it just sort of worked out that way when using the track I have on hand.

I have built modules, or sectional layouts before, and I like the flexibility. This also allows for easy expansion in the years to come. As I work around the basement, I can repurpose many of the sections to other parts of the basement, and save time and money. I have a standard way of building the sections that speeds up the process.

As far as the walk in area, right now, and I should have mentioned this in my original post, there is a 2'x4' lift gate in the short section at the top left of the plan, just to the left of the stub-wall. When my plan is complete, there will be no need for bridges, gates, or duck-unders. The layout will, for the most part, follow the perimeter walls of the basement. Entrance to the area will be via the stairs, which exit at the point labeled "stairs up". You enter the basement at the bottom of the stairs there.

Right now, I'm focusing on the area where the benchwork is complete- Phase-1. I'm just not sure how to adapt that two mainline concept, to make room for accessories, sidings, and well, more fun!

Thanks!

 

The pillar that I am speaking of is the block bump out on the garage wall that you wiggle the track around. When, I check the dimensions in RRT they show 24.19" x 6.30". The 6.30" wide doesn't sound like a nominal block width. Something around 7 5/8". if it is 6.30" than so be it.

Well, 4.5" to 6" is what most use for center rail spacing. 4" is ok on straights and yard sidings, spurs.

The log loader needs a track on each side, the others work on one track.

I was thinking the outer line is mainline and you would vary the inner route on the wall opposite the garage from a concentric line to accommodate accessories or provide space for switches to go to siding spurs.

I suggest building the plan (phase I) with all that it will be . The remove future switches and such and replace with the track that you have. If it's already spaced or fit for the expansion, it makes it much easier. Cutting the track or using sectionals now is how you work with what you have.

Ok, I have a handle on the area now. Do you want to select the accessories you'd like to use first? The log loader is a lot of fun, but you would need 1 or 2 more switches. So, choose some others.

Ok,

Are you working with all 37" straights or do you actually have the miscellaneous cut straights in inventory?

Rick,

Just a little food for thought.  As designed now, both of your mainlines seem to be closer to the walls/back of the layout.  This necessitates putting all sidings and action accessories in front of the mainlines, making them easier to watch while simultaneously creating various view blocks for you mainlines.

This is OK for the time being (using inner loop as one big siding for accessories), but personally, I like to see my trains running, so I would try to avoid view blocks.  With the room you have, how about creating an industrial "island" yard area with a single entrance from both directions (a wye that could also be used to turn locomotives or trains) to place most, if not all, of your operating accessories?

Again, just my thoughts.

Chuck

Carl,

Thanks for pointing out the odd dimensions on the stub-wall. It's actually 9.75"x24". It all fits with the dimensions of the sections being accurate. I think I didn't sweat those dimensions, because it's outside the Phase-1 area. I'll definitely fix that prior to moving into Phase-2!

I like the idea of designing Phase-1 as I want it when complete. Seems like it would make things easier in the long run.

I plan to use Ross switches throughout, nothing less than O-72. I currently have 37.25" Gargraves flex track straights to use.

I think rerouting the inner line to accommodate accessories would be a great way to go. Chucks comments also got me thinking about whether I want to obscure the mainlines with accessories, etc. If I route the main (one or both) closer to the front edge, creating room for accessories behind the mains, It could work.

Chuck,

I agree with you, I like to be able to see the trains run, and with a benchwork height of 50", it's really nice to watch them roll!

I've thought about rerouting the mains toward the front/inside of the benchwork and placing my sidings and accessories in the back. I don't want to put any track or accessory beyond 30" from the front edge, as that is the maximum easy reach in distance, without a stool. That's one of the givens I have- nothing out of reach from the front edge. That, along with- no duck-unders, and no curves or switches under O-72.

I like the industrial spur idea and will probably incorporate that in Phase-2, along one side of the stairwell. I would probably put the Y on a lift/drop bridge, to ease access. 

Thanks for the ideas guys, I really appreciate the input. You've brought up some good points that I hadn't thought of!

Rick

OK, I've come up with an idea that I think will allow the use of accessories, and allow running of at least the inner main line, with minimal obstruction. A Lionel log loader is illustrated for scale and track spacing. The arrangment would also allow for some storage in the siding on the lower leg of the loop. I'll need to purchase of a few additional pieces of track, but I think I can manage. Let me know what you think.

Thanks again for all the input!

Rick

If anyone was curious, here are a couple of pics of my liftgate/bridge.

I appreciate you want to get the trains up and going.  You might want to consider a way to "reverse" your trains so you aren't stuck just circling.  I am a fan of having a point-to-point set-up with reversing loops at each end.  A set-up like this gives the appearance that the train is going somewhere.  It appears more realistic as the train is actually going from "end" to "end" and a configuration like this provides for an easy walk-in layout.  I see you have addressed the access issue.

If you decide to leave the track-work as a loop I would install back-drop dividers to break up a scene from one scene to the next.  It will make the layout appear bigger and the run longer.  Also, if you stick with just circling I would use very large diameter curves that will make anything in O scale appear realistic.

I think your space is a good candidate for a second level and have stacking staging areas on each end of the run.  But, I'm assuming you running a hilly/mountain area.  For all I know you could be modeling the Chicago yards.

What is your railroad?  Where is it going to be? 

John, thanks for the input! I've been admiring your layout and videos for some time. I agree that going in a big circle is not exactly realistic. The goal here is to get things running and then expand around the rest of the basement. It would be very difficult to incorporate reverse loops in my space. With a maximum dimension of 12'6", even O-72 would cramp the useable area, and result in access issues I want to avoid. I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, so I plan to use scenic dividers to represent a PNW feel to the layout. I just want to let the GN, BN, and BNSF trains run, and if the mood strikes, do a little switching of operating accessories on a high-rail type setup. I envision the portion illustrated here, as an industrial area like Everett or Wenatchee, WA. The layout will eventually curve "north" where the lift bridge is, through a "cascade" tunnel, across the cascade Mountains, and into a rural/small town area, then back through (maybe) a passenger station scene and into the Phase-1 section illustrated here. I'm familiar with the staging concept and have thought about stacking loops, or staging. I may incorporate that at some point, but for now, I need to get trains running and keep it simple so I can maintain my momentum.

I've spent years "operating" on some of the country's great, HO, N, and O scale model railroads. While I really enjoy that, and appreciate and admire the accomplishments of the talented and dedicated modelers that own them, after many false starts, I've come to realize that's not what I really want to do. This loop arrangement is the start of a journey for me. I am open to any and all suggestions, and if any would like to try their hand at creating a track plan, I would certainly consider it!

Thanks again!

Rick

Rick,

I have zero experience with RRT software, but your log loader sure seems squeezed between the two tracks with no room to spare.  If all the dimensions are accurate within the software, then it looks like it would probably fit.  But you might want to try a test fit with the one switch and some track to see if that plan can handle all your equipment running by on both sides of the accessory before you invest in additional switches for this plan.

Chuck

Wise advice, Chuck! Test fitting will definitely be a part of putting this together. At this point I don't have a log loader, but plan to get one prior to putting in that inner siding. Right now, I'm just trying to see what kind of track arrangement will work here for Phase-1. This latest version seems like it could check most of the boxes.

Thanks!

Rick . . .

I believe you are on the right track (ha ha) with anticipating accessories, structures, and so forth that you can acquire and incorporate into a track plan.  The more of this anticipation that you can do, and adjust your preliminary track plan, accordingly, will be more efficient in building Phase I.

Keep up the informative posts; we enjoy following along in your process and progress. 

The size of the accessories in RR-Track are accurate.

You, know, I am not sure what one does for a activation track with slide rails when using Gargraves. I know Eliot collected quite a few postwar uncoupler tracks to get scavenge the electro-magnets to make uncouplers tracks on his layout.

I did notice that you used a piece of cut plastic tie track approaching the lift gate on the inner line.

Have you run the simulation on this design? Very helpful to determine if it operates the way that want it to operate. After track fitting and design work, I always take the time to run a sim.

The log loader is lots of fun. But, a touch of reality now says that you could have a logging operation (at least scenically) and a sawmill accessory. A siding could be in a town to a lumber supply company building with board loads and a lumber shed.

If you will be acquiring these accessories, the new versions run much better than postwar and some have sounds.

Add some buildings and platforms for passenger service and this side is almost done.

Use some area for country scenery, perhaps a pond.

Keithville is coming together.

Rick, where did you grow up in the PNW?

Mike,  I grew up in Ferndale, WA, a small town just south of the Canadian border, on I-5. Bellingham was a hub of action for the GN, NP, and Milwaukee Road. I still remember all those roads operating in the area and was around for the big merger in 1970. I think it was a fascinating time to be a railfan, and is why I have an affinity for those railroads even though I am now a resident of PA.

Carl, I will be trying to pair industries, like the log loader and sawmill. I believe it will enhance interest and showcase some of the great operating accessories available. Regarding the plastic-tie track, I probably clicked the wrong selection in RR-Track. I'll be using all Gargraves wood-tie and Ross switches. Gargraves does offer operating and uncoupling track sections, as well as sections which combine the two features. I will try the sim, which is a great idea. I've always had a little trouble with that feature. It seems to cause some instability and locks up the program frequently. It is a great way to see if things work right! A logging operation is definitely one of the things I'd like to add, along with grain elevator, passenger/freight station, scrap yard, with gantry crane, etc. I'm beginning to realize that planning the entire basement layout will be very beneficial in determining what goes where in Phase-1. Think I'll start working on that as well!

Hi Rick, I know where Ferndale is, My mom and grandmother live in Birch bay. My Brother use to live in Ferndale, but now live near lake stevens. Have you already got your saw mill? If not let me know I bought one for my future layout and not sure if I am going to use it or not.  But it sounds like you are sure your going to need one.

Rick,

Just use an engine to reduce the load on the computer in the sim mode. Close any other apps. Make sure RRT is updated.

No need to really design the whole track plan, but locating towns, industries and elements will permit a focus on this area that will work with future expansion.

I only went with passenger service as they can run faster than freights and look good while you are playing with a freight doing some work.

Combining the play value of operating accessories with some prototypical design makes for a good display layout that you'll enjoy.

I have been messing with two wyes that join this section to the rest of the basement. One at the wall side and one near the lift section. That would leave Phase I as an independent RR with access to another RR. The outside line on the open basement end would be the shared track.

These are some of design techniques used by the authors of those books that have. Blending enough realism into fantasy to suit you.

ricka1 posted:

 

Regarding the plastic-tie track, I probably clicked the wrong selection in RR-Track. I'll be using all Gargraves wood-tie and Ross switches.

I just wanted you to know that I am paying attention.