Benchwork thoughts wanted

Yeah my "tiny" self would NOT be crawling up on those corners, they need more support. Remember, you cant over build your benchwork. It's the foundation to your "house" so to speak so don't be afraid to beef it up. If you look at the layout we're building, we can walk, crawl, stand and/or lay on this thing anywhere. We've even both been up there at the same time with no issues.

I see no problem with the corners. Around the walls layouts like this have the problem of ducking under or a drop/lift/swing gate. If you can drill a few holes in the walls, the 2 arm wall brackets described in the book would work very well in this case.

I am totally with Laidoffsick here. I have never been a fan of L girder benchwork. I'm a firm believer in 1x4 frames with 2x4 legs. In your application, if you can attach to the walls, you won't need many legs. Also, it can be made to come apart if it ever needs to be moved.

good bones are VERY important and make it easier to move entire platform at a later time on modify it without being rickety Some pics although mine is a bit over the top...

adding video, its older but some may see it for the first time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG5qv-mUv40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KR3GTHqcL0    enjoy

I have fabricated and used L Girder twice in HO but in "O" quickly found in several layouts that the simpliest and cheapest is 2x4s and 1x4s which are screwed up quickly and straightforward. On my little 9x16 round-the-room attic layout I screwed a ledger board to the wall to catch 1x4 grid ends which rest on a 2x4 beam at the front.

 

One side, the Yard is 40" wide. The Village side is 36" and the rear corner structures  are a "reach" even standing on the toolbox. 

 

I recycled my hinged "Barrett Drop Section" from a couple of dismantled layouts as the layout entry. Initially I left the far trianglur corners open as access but later used them for a much compressed Sawmill and Denim Mill[unfinished]. 

 

Old photos below.....

 

 

Dewey, nice layout!! For storage under and between my platfrm legs i use 3/4 plywood w/straight (4)set 1" wheels and simply pull out 3' sections w/boxes stacked on them. Seeing that you are retired from your old business(denim manufact.), and past your old trains down I guess we can assume that "trains run in your jeans",, sort o speak.

Thanks Rich, working on the layout's severely compressed far corners ever so slowly. Health issues have delayed me for awhile. Getting cranked up again.

your sloped ceiling there is screaming for heavy smoke graphic coming off your industrial smoke stack there!!

Thanks for everyone's input. WyoRail I did consider the wall arm brackets but chose to play around with the free standing design first. I will get to it though. LaidOffSick I like the ledger board idea as it seems an easy way to get things level over a long span compared to a bunch of Wall mounted arms. I think an angle support arm from the base of the wall vs a vertical leg would offer more flexible storage. A wall mounted solution might not work for the wall with the two closets. It's possible I could poke holes in the walls and actually use the closet space for the layout, but for now I'm pretending I can't do that. I will do some more drawings and check back in soon.

 

Rep56, I saw your build thread weeks ago. Awesome work. The counterbalanced lift gate is clever. And the benchwork... looks a shame to cover it up with a layout. <grin>

Tim,

   I came late to your thread, however I will give you my thoughts.

I like your engineering on the side structure, however I am 5' 11" and weigh

210.  The legs on this engineering plan scare me to death.  Got to go with the big guys on this, my advise is to re-engineer the legs in a completely different manner.

Especially if you plan on a multi level train layout. 

PCRR/Dave

 

Tim there is a lot of different ways to engineer real strong bench work, that a big man can stand on, and some of it is easier than you might think.

 

Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not sure why you wouldn't attach the outer girder directly to the wall and then put a post under the inner corner girders and then cantilever over those back to the outer girder.

 

3' is wide for modeling back against the wall, and 4' is nearly an impossible reach for any length of time, consider how your back will feel after several hours of reaching that far. I'll go against the masses here and say I think most benchwork is way over built, but at a 3' max depth on my layout there is no need to climb up there, when I can reach it from the floor. Besides even if the layout will hold you imagine how many trees and buildings your size 12 shoes are gonna take out once you get up there. 

Hi Tim, I would definitely move the green, blue, and yellow legs to the corners.  I built my platform using 1x4 frame work with 2x2 legs.  I built sections of 2' wide x 8' long.  I have 1 leg in each corner and 1 leg on each side at the 4' mark. I don't have any bracing on any of the legs.  Once all the sections are bolted together the platform is very tight and stable.  I am about 6' tall and weigh about 200 pounds and have been on top with no problems. 

 

 

Good luck,  Rick

I too am a firm believer in L-Girder for many reasons which I have outlined in my never-ending post about my rebuild so I won't bore anyone any further. Suffice it to say that it's clearly strong enough to support an average human when built properly. I would suggest you reconsider using cantilevered wall brackets. Since your design is around-the-wall there will be a wall behind every portion of the layout. I'm using brackets for the entire 39 foot rear of my design where the layout meets the walls and it's very strong and there's nothing in the way on the floor so it's easy to move underneath for wiring and maintenance. It's very easy to clean under that portion of the layout. I built my right out of the book you're using so I don't need to describe it.

 

I use 2 X 2s for all vertical supports, 1 X 4s and 1 X 2s for girders, 1 X 3s for joist and risers, and 1 X 2s for cleats. It's very easy to erect with one person since nothing is very heavy. Gussets are either Tempered Masonite or 1/4 ply. I used carriage bolts, nuts and washers to fasten legs to girders, and star drive deck screws for everything else. I found SPAX star drive screws at The Home Depot which are wonderful wood fastening devices that are easy to drive, don't split wood too often and hold like crazy. I generally was using #8s or 9s in various lengths.

As Laidoffsick mentioned, you can't overbuild benchwork.  I know people swear by the L-girder, but I haven't bought in yet.  I do my benchwork with 2x4s all around, including for a shelf at the bottom for storage.  L-girder might be great for supporting the bench top, but I've never seen an L-girder set up as sturdy as my 2x4 based benchwork.  ****, I build my benchwork like a deck and am not joking when I say, if there's ever a tornado warning in my area, I'm going in the basement to trade spots with the Rubbermaid containers underneath the layout.

But, I think you've actually defined the problem. O'gauge train layouts are not decks. they're not expected to hold outdoor grills, have teenagers dance on them in the summertime. They're holding engines that weigh at most 11 pounds, and occasionally a static person (not jumping up and down) when scenery is being constructed or a repair must be made. I weigh 185 pounds. The layout doesn't even creak when I'm on top of it. L-girder is much easier to run wires underneath since you don't have framing blocking off the underside of the table in every direction. It's really the difference between how an airplane structure is built or a frame house. So I do believe that you actually can overbuild a train layout.

So the local modelers decided to go with 1x4 l-girder.  We went down to the local box store and the 1x4's was 225% the price of a 2x4!   Soooooo the new layout is 2x4 construction!  Russ

Tim, don't get me wrong, I never said L Girder was a bad idea. My point was simply more support (legs) in the corners. We used 2x4's for a couple different reasons, but mainly cost. You can build sturdy bench work with 1x4's, no problem.... but 1x4's cost twice as much as a 2x4, and if you want clean, prime grade 1x4's, they cost even more than twice that of a 2x4. Whatever you decide to do, remember you can't over build any of it. You don't want to look back after the fact and say.... well I wish I would of ________________! 

Agreed Greg, if your not going to be crawling on the layout 2"x2" legs or 1"x4" legs are fine IMO. Some like 2"x4" to each his own.

Roughing in a legless RR.  You can get six 32" cantilevers from a sheet of 3/4" X 4' X 8' plywood.  I have mounted them at 16" and 32" centers and they are capable of 225# huminoids:

Ply is an excellent way to go if you can handle the sheets and the cutting.

 

While 1 X 4s are more expensive, they're only used in making girders, and I bought the finger jointed material at home depot. It was much less expensive, strong enough, very straight, square and primed with white paint. The reason for L-girder is you use so much less of the expensive stuff. Nuff said!

Tim,

 

Well, your simple question about the corner has certainly stirred a few opinions.

 

I find it interesting that some have negative opinions on something they've never used.

 

Many years ago I did the typical 2x4, 1x4 box frame. Just recently, after studying Linn's book, used L girder as in Linn's book. I was astounded at the strength of the lighter materials when used correctly.

 

Linn describes both box frame and L girder as both being viable choices. I prefer the L girder for it's ability to move joists, customize positions, and most of all for the use of lighter materials 1x4,1x2,2x2's. but either designs are fine. Both are strong.

 

As far as your question concerning the corners, simply add a 2x2 leg where you feel its necessary. At a buck and a half each, you'll sleep better.

 

Your design looks well thought out. Linn has a bit more expierance than all of us combined. Follow him and you'll be fine.

 

Keep us posted.

I think people's "negative opinion" about L girder is less negative opinion and more comfort and confidence with a different method.  I'm a 2x4 guy, but will admit L-girder may be more efficient in terms of material usage and is more flexible in terms of design options.

 

However I have a few beliefs (call them educated or not) about L-girder which I suspect others share:

- The joinery seems to be more complex to ensure you have sufficient strength.  (Complex can mean something as simple as the aim needed to hit with a screw the 3/4" profile of a 1x versus the 1.5" profile of a 2x)

- There appear to be a lot more cuts required for L girder, along with more precision.

- I'd prefer to err on the side of too strong versus not strong enough.  The last thing I want is part of my bench coming down.

- I suspect I can build a 2x4 bench in far less time than I can an L girder, if only because I've done it before.

- 2x4s are darn cheap.

 

My reasons for not preferring L girder (note I didn't say "not liking L girder") have much more to do with my confidence in my own woodworking skills versus my negative opinion about it. 

It depends what you built your benchwork to do.  I don't disagree with most of your comment, but for some like me the benchwork serves multiple purposes.  For starters, I have a shelf built into the benchwork that sits a few inches off the ground for storage because I don't want to store items on the ground.  That shelf easily holds several hundred pounds. 

 

Additionally my layout shares basement space with my kids' entertainment area.  I get nervous enough thinking about a ball hitting the layout, I don't want an impromtu wrestling match to take out a leg and with it, much of the layout.

I think people's "negative opinion" about L girder is less negative opinion and more comfort and confidence with a different method.  I'm a 2x4 guy, but will admit L-girder may be more efficient in terms of material usage and is more flexible in terms of design options.

I would agree with this as most guys have enough tools and skills to build a reasonable platform out if 2x4's and plywood and have trains running in a weekend. I tend to take for granted being in the wood business and having a fully equipped shop below my train room makes L girder more practical for my application. I prefer the light weight and adaptability of L girder construction combined with the fact that nearly all of the components can be made out of 3/4" plywood with little or no waste. It's all good.

I know it's silly, but the thought of filling that drywall work with lag bolts or tapcons (two of the walls are outside walls....poured concrete with firring strips) will need to become an acquired taste.

I get it, but the first one is the hardest 

Thanks for all the input so far. So many excellent examples on how to get the job done. I look forward to throwing mine in the mix eventually.

 

Greggj410, Yes it looks like you do get it.

Question. Since no wall is perfectly plumb how did you adjust your arms for level with such inflexible joinery? Did you shim under the girders? Or does it really matter since you usually screwing risers above that anyway? Seems to me perfectly level girders would only matter if you're putting a flat tabletop right on top of the them. Looks very well done by the way. .....And nice laser level.

 

Ok the more I look at it, how many purposes is the ledger board serving? I get that it brings the top out from the wall to match the baseboard thickness. And it gives a truly level reference. But you could've marked that on the wall and used small blocks versus a complete board all the way across. Does it serve a later purpose not shown here such as supporting some additional benchwork or scenery? Do you have more pics or a build thread somewhere?

Make sure the top fasteners are the big ones for the wall brackets. The pull-out load on them can be substantial. The bottom has very little loading and just stabilizes the leg. If it's a studded wall, make sure you hit the studs with those fasteners. I wouldn't want to depend on sheet rock anchors.

 

Regarding cutting accuracy for L-girder, it's actually the other way around. Since there are no butt joints in L-girder, the lengths of material, e.g., joists, risers, cleats, is completely arbitrary. The only pieces that should be close to equal length is the joist web and flange. When making long joists like 24' (4, 8ft pieces) I fasten the flange offset by some amount say 1.5" so the flange catches the next joist being spliced and makes it easier to align. Since you level each cleat independently, even the joists don't have to be level. I made them level just because I'm anal, but you adjust each riser as you go and use a water-level to level things that are far apart from each other and the whole thing comes out very nicely. 

Greg410 touched on it, my biggest concern is the uncertain stability of dimensional (1 x 4, 2 x 4, 2 x 2, etc) soft wood.

 

There is a reason stacks of soft wood are picked through at point of purchase, the stuff warps. No two pieces at the same rate or direction.  It is a crap shoot as to what will happen to the lumber in time to come. 

 

I am reworking a 40' X 50' layout right now that a very capable professional carpenter assembled using 1" X 4" framing with 12" support centers and 48" spacing of 2x4 legs with dual 24" diagional bracing on every leg with 1/2" decking and 1/2" homosote.  All held together with tight fastener spacing. 

 

The benchwork sat for 1 1/2 years in a beautiful climate controlled room before I was called on to install 2k feet of track.  

There is a 1/2" to 1" potato chip affect throughout the entire decking.  Soft solid wood is inherently not stable.

 

To give you an idea of a sort of spec; solid wood flooring is not rated for below grade installation.  Enginered wood (read plywood) style construction flooring is rated for below grade installation.  This is a rating that the mfg puts out there because if there is a warping, expansion leading to "tenting" or other failure there will be expensive warrantee concerns.

 

I believe there is no one right way to construct benchwork.  Experience tells me that stable decking can range from 5.5 meranti, 6.0 Russian Birch, 1/2" OSB, 3/4" Birch shop grade and 3/4" Advantech.  It all depends on the particular grade and particular style of construction.  I have seen failed benchwork using 3/4" Birch over shoddy frame work.

 

I like L girder but I only use ripped 3/4" maple/birch when building it.

 

A sheet of plywood will yield thirteen 8' strips of 1x4's.  If your plywood costs $45.50 per sheet each stable strong 1x4 will only be $3.50 and there will not be any knots even with shop grade Birch/Maple.

 

But for the life of me, I fail to understand why folks seek to cheap out on their benchwork which is the foundation of their fun or frustration for years to come.

 

To each their own.

Like I noted before, ply is a genius solution although it wouldn't take screws edgewise which is the standard way of securing joist to the girder flange (one 2" star drive screw on each end). But you need to be able to rip the stuff. I don't have a table saw and using a hand circular saw is a challenge since you need to install a straight fence on the ply if there's any chance of getting decent cuts. Now, if the lumber supplier could rip the pieces on their panel saw that would be something...

 

I had an L-girder layout in the basement for years and nothing changed. I was using German ply as the top surface. Here I'm using OSB and expect results to be similar. Where there was cupping I inverted the panel pieces and used the joists and risers to pull it straight. We'll see how that holds up over time.

Ya gots ta furget the big box stores when it comes to certain products or services.  Check out a wood shop or a genuine lumber yard with a mill shop.  Most will rip a sheet of plywood for a modest charge. 

 

Even if you have a table saw it is very helpful if the first rip cut is done for you on a panel saw.  Much easier handling 2 x 8 half sheets.

Originally Posted by Tim Newman:
Thanks for all the input so far. So many excellent examples on how to get the job done. I look forward to throwing mine in the mix eventually.

Greggj410, Yes it looks like you do get it.
Question. Since no wall is perfectly plumb how did you adjust your arms for level with such inflexible joinery? Did you shim under the girders? Or does it really matter since you usually screwing risers above that anyway? Seems to me perfectly level girders would only matter if you're putting a flat tabletop right on top of the them. Looks very well done by the way. .....And nice laser level.

Hi and thanks Tim the tool man Taylor(you kinda remind me of him). To get the arms level, I simply shimmed the top out or the bottom out depending on which way it needed to go. I tried to get the brackets level but then tweaked everything as I went to get as closest to perfectly level as possible. Then from there if you want level sub roadbed you can do accomplish that with the risers as you mentioned. Trainman has a good point that the top lag needs to be a bit heftier vs the bottom is more for stability.

Ok the more I look at it, how many purposes is the ledger board serving? I get that it brings the top out from the wall to match the baseboard thickness. And it gives a truly level reference. But you could've marked that on the wall and used small blocks versus a complete board all the way across. Does it serve a later purpose not shown here such as supporting some additional benchwork or scenery? Do you have more pics or a build thread somewhere?

You are correct, the ledger board just saves me from getting smaller blocks in a precise position and presently serves no other purpose. I am working on some photos and will post a link soon.

Greg that's really nice work! The pictures show the progression really well. I would not cull any of them. You certainly spared no expense on materials. Here are some more questions...

What's the timeline for those pics?

It looks like homasote roadbed and you beveled it with a router. I thought about doing that myself. Was it really hard on the router bit? Did it make a lot of dust? Homasote looks like a very loosely packed MDF and MDF makes a ridiculous amount of dust on a router.

Now that you're past using the hardboard for templates for the plywood roadbed, would you do it that way again? Seems like a lot of waste. I admit it gives you a great result though. The pics didn't show how you cut the plywood roadbed. Did you use the templates for shape transfer and then use a jigsaw, or did you use them as a template for spiral cut router bit?

Tim,

 

If you have dust collection for a table saw and router table, it makes your life a lot easier. If not, you can make your cuts outside, and let your neighbors think it's snowing . I prefer L-Girder with plywood. I don't like wasting my time picking through 2x4's, and I can break the sheets down myself. Bottom line, whatever method you feel comfortable with that works. Good luck.

 

Andy

Greg that's really nice work!
Thank you my friend


The pictures show the progression really well. I would not cull any of them. You certainly spared no expense on materials. Here are some more questions...


What's the timeline for those pics?
I built about 24-26 of the maple brackets that support everything during the blizzard of 2010 here on the east coast. They were the most time consuming. Much of the other components are basically 4" rips of plywood docked at set lengths with bored holes. L girders were all pre cut, glued up and stapled in a short period of time. Lots of repetitious stuff here that you can really crank out in a weekend, from there it's just assembly. Sub roadbed can eat up some time if you have lots of curves. I used GG flex but if you use sectional you could pattern cut ply wood with a template and a pattern bit and churn out bunches of them too.


It looks like homasote roadbed and you beveled it with a router.
correct, see my condensed version and notes on the Picasso link below


I thought about doing that myself. you should


Was it really hard on the router bit?
went through it like butter

Did it make a lot of dust?
enough to kill a man without dust collection

Homasote looks like a very loosely packed MDF and MDF makes a ridiculous amount of dust on a router.
agreed, dust collection or outdoors but either way wear a mask 

Now that you're past using the hardboard for templates for the plywood roadbed, would you do it that way again? Seems like a lot of waste. I admit it gives you a great result though.
probably at 8$ a sheet. I'm still pondering the use if the waste laminated up for the facia. It can be utilized in other areas

The pics didn't show how you cut the plywood roadbed. Did you use the templates for shape transfer and then use a jigsaw, or did you use them as a template for spiral cut router bit?
I used them as a template transfer and then jigsawed them out although  using a spiral cut router bit would produce much nicer results. I was going for time here and much of it will not show in the end

Here is a condensed L girder link with some notes, hope this helps
https://picasaweb.google.com/1...Gv1sRgCL3l0vShjfTcbg

The latest design. I actually finished cutting the pieces and mounted the first arm on the wall.

 

 

 

 

Very nice! Ain't Sketchup Great!

 

I don't know if you've thought about it yet, but to join two girders at right angles like you have at the junctions, I take a 2 X 2 piece of leg block and cross drill it for carriage bolts to hold the girder coming in to the angle and use some long #9 deck screws to hold the block to the base girder. It makes for a very strong junction and you're not putting any screws into end-grain wood with is weaker than fastening cross grain. I avoid any end-grain construction whenever I can.

 

I try and pre-drill all the holes since it's not easy getting a larger drill size into the corners. Like I said, you could take the easy route and come into the end grain from the back, but this is much more secure. The perpendicular-girder's web is notched so it nestles under the cross-girder's. This helps align the girders and makes it easier to put it all together when working alone.

I use a variety of corner blocks, just set the chop saw for 45 degrees and slid-n-flip a 2 x 4 thru untill you have enough.  Being a production effort I simply coat surfaces with urathane adhesive, tack in place with some brads and build with a modular format. For rework easily slice off the offending area and re configure.

 

This approach is quite a bit more pragmatic than Greg 410.  Now Greg's work is what real precision benchwork really looks like!!!

This module is inverted.  The raised portion is really a creek valley.

Tool man, your brackets look brilliant. If I had to do it again, I'd do the brackets just like wescott. I should mention the reason for using the maple is because I had plenty of it on hand, not something I'd buy. How'd that lag bolt feel going through that freshly painted drywall? I like Trainmans method for the corners although I ran screws through the back side through to the joining L girder. Pockets screws would probably work well too if you have the jigs for doing so and of course Tom Tee always has rock solid methods. Show us more as you go.

Trainman2001, Sketchup is awesome! I've virtually hashed out so many things with it. Actually I had not given much thought to using the blocks, although I did ponder just how much shear stress a screw or two in the end grain could take. But then I haven't finished gluing up all my girders. The blocks or some additional component are the best option.

 

Tom, Thanks for the pics, nice work there too. I can't figure out what the second pic is with all the oval cutouts?

 

Thanks Greg, who am I to judge your use of fine hardwoods and joinery for your wall brackets. But they are a far cry stronger than my rip 2x4s.

One lag in the top and fine thread drywall screw in the base. I can patch that if I ever need to. I do have a kreg jig, but I like the blocks better too.

 

Since I don't have a track plan, the initial benchwork will support a 30" wide flat deck around the room. This will give me a chance to play with different designs. No subroadbed for now. Later I can lengthen or shorten the arms if needed.