Buss Wiring vs Home runs.

My layout is smaller than yours (6'x16') and I have a Rev L TIU. I followed the guidelines in the DCS Companion (Barry's book) which recommends star wiring to wire for DCS it and it works great. I have yet to have a DCS error on it in over 2 years. I am sold on the star wiring for DCS. I had some small temporary layouts prior to my current layout and I had occasional DCS errors with every one of them, but none of those had blocks. I thought they were too small to make any difference. I am not so sure now and creating blocks is the other thing I am sold on for DCS systems. I can not say for certain whether the star wiring or the blocks or both resolved all my DCS errors, but if I ever do another layout I will do it the same as I have done here.

There are others here that have bus wiring and also have DCS working well. However, they may have had to use the 'magic light bulbs' or Susan Deats' filters to get reliable DCS results, I really don't know what they have done here? Hopefully they will comment here for you as well. I have never done a bus wired layout so I have no experience with those or with bus wiring and DCS systems. Others here have had bus wired layouts with DCS for many years and have them working very reliably from what I have read in other threads here. 

I think the general consensus if you already have a bus wired layout is to try it as it is and see what happens before doing any re-wiring. Then if you have problems you can go from there. Some folks here can probably help with that. Which ever way you choose I recommend getting the DCS Companion, if you don't already have a copy. I think others will recommend that also, regardless of how their layout is wired. Good luck!

 I use buss wiring. 12 gauge buss with 14 gauge feeders. Every section of Gargraves has feeders as well as every rail of Ross turnouts. Not a lot of complicated trackwork. The track is blocked. A big area. 20ft by 48ft. No voltage drops and 10's everywhere. I use 2 TIU's and 6 channels. I try not to overload any one channel.

I run 2 rail !

Whenever I've had multi paths to the engines, I have had troubles. Double responses to commands, poor communications, etc. I have always had the best luck hooking power to one end of a block, and having a filter or bulb at the other end only with older TIUs. With the newer L version, I pulled all the filters off. Sometimes a feed in the middle of the block will work, when other times it's not as good? So length of track blocks and number of engines in that area seem to be a concern.

 I have learned some other stuff, some that applies to very large layouts only. Like on my outside G scale running large consists. I consulted others who didn't believe I was correct. Yet when I made the changes, the layout ran flawlessly. Sometimes without changes or warnings, things went south? So I keep these for myself on my outside layout only. I always wanted to try them on large club's layouts, but have not had the opportunity.

 I believe in the end, do what works for you. It seems like we each have our own rules to go by. From that I can conjecture, that each layout maybe it's own special case.

My personal; view is that there is nothing wrong with buss wiring, BUT, only one center rail drop per block.  Blocks are defined by breaks in the center rail.  Use 14-gauge stranded wire minimum.

I have a couple questions that might be appropriate for this thread:

Question 1:  Why do you guys use 12 or 14 gauge bus wires?  That seems to be a bit overkill.  I don't know that's why I'm asking.  Everybody I spoke with and said 18 would work ok, but 16 is the standard; so why the very thick bus gauge?

Question 2:  A few different local hobby shops told me 16 gauge stranded speaker wire is a great and cheaper substitute for the "regular" wire.  Is this true?  Is the speaker wire just as good?  I'm curious because it costs about 75% less and it's stranded.

Question 3:  Why do DCS systems need a special wiring layout?  Why wouldn't a bus work in most cases for DCS?  Power is power right?

LIRR Steamer posted:

 I have a larger layout in an 11 by 30 foot area . Buss wiring approach would use less wiring it would seem. Thoughts please?  

I'm in the process of wiring my 14 x 39' layout with home runs. Currently I'm into the third 500' box of this.  I can tell you this, it's expensive to wire home runs.

Three of four districts are wired. I'll be hard at it again tomorrow morning. There are 25 feeders complete, 8 to go. I just hope that's enough.

I use 12 gauge wire for my layout with the DCS command control system and have it wired in bus style about every 4 sections of track and that works great.

18 gauge wire can overheat because it is rated for around 5 amps and most DCS units can handle close to 10 amps. If you use 18 gauge wire better have a fire extinguisher handy!!

I would use 14 gauge wire as it is not too expensive and can handle most power loads, even handle a direct short without problems. Most circuit breakers will trip before the 14 gauge wire melts unless you are using the new Lionel ZW-L.

Lee Fritz

McGee, because of voltage drop and diminished signal.  Stop talking to N gaugers.

Thanks guys. 

Ps.. RJR, will do. 

I run conventional and have had no trouble with distributing 500 total watts to five districts (100 w per district) using #16 buss wire.  100 watts divided by a conservative 12 volts gives me 8 amps max per district- no issue for #16.  I have 10 amp quick blow fuses and never lost one except for grandchild or a derailment.  If I had it to do over I would use 14 just for iron plating. 

Tom, is your home run wiring need based on Legacy or DCS?

hokie71 posted:

Tom, is your home run wiring need based on Legacy or DCS?

I'm following Barry's recommendation for DCS installation. I do have TMCC as well. Currently I have only one Legacy locomotive.

I run G scale and O scale. I run up to around ten engines in a train. Even the passenger trains with less engines still have lighted cars.

So I would not use smaller than 14 gauge on these layouts to be safe. Of course it all depends on variables. How many engines or lighted cars, how long are the wire runs, etc.

 If you're building a small loop of track for a layout, smaller wire may handle the needed supply. More connection points may help distribute the load on each wire as well.

LIRR Steamer posted:

I have a dcs with the Rev L Tiu version. I have read in the past that the Home runs were recommended for layout wiring. Just wondering if anyone has tried wiring their layout with a Buss wiring approach and if so, what your experience might be. particularily with signal. I have a larger layout in an 11 by 30 foot area . Buss wiring approach would use less wiring it would seem. Thoughts please?  

We have a 16 x 33 layout.  All Atlas track and turnouts, 14 AWG drops wired to terminal blocks.  Everything is done exactly according to Barry's book.  It took a whole lot of time and money to do this. With three mains and a 48' siding, over a year in my spare time on weekends between soldering every drop and then connecting all the drops to the terminal blocks.  We have the Rev. L TIU.  We experience regular nonsensical DCS faults. From "train not on track," while the train is in motion, to "check track," when the engine has run over that track a dozen or more times without issue, to you name it.  I've never bus wired a DCS layout, but my guess is that all the extra time, effort and expense was a waste.  

Peter

One other thing mentioned in the DCS Companion is no more than 10 or so track joints per block. I also followed this on my layout.

I have a buss wired layout with nothing less than a 10 signal. 

Version I. connected to buss wiring here.   14 gauge Romex, stripped of its outer skin, as feeds, with the bare ground wire as common.  14 gauge stranded wire drops, one drop per block.   Initial signal issues were found to be certain lighted cars.  There's a list out there somewhere, and a caboose in my roster was on that list.  Removed the car and instant 10's all 'round.

Both DCS and Legacy play nice together in that environment, for now,  but things are far from completed on the layout. 

Bruce

Some constant voltage boards in lighted cars will kill a signal.  Try a 22uh choke in the AC lead to the board.

Romex is solid wire.  I would not use that.  Stranded wire is what you want.  On smaller layouts, you can use just about anything.  On wiring on larger layouts, use 14 ga stranded wire.

My layout is 7' x 16'.  I used 14 gauge stranded wire.  I purchased 100' 14/3 extension cords and just stripped the wires out.  Cheap and easy.

Gentlemen,

   I use 14 gauge good stranded wire, it delivers great DCS signal no matter which engineering method you wire your layout with, I have used both the star wiring, and the bus wiring methods, and achieved a constant 10 DCS signal with both.  I like the star wiring method for my multi level layouts, and always use the good 14 Gauge stranded wire.  Everything works perfectly on my multi level FasTrack/RealTrax layouts in this manner.  McGee it's more than just power delivery, it is also DCS signal delivery, the Milti Stranded wire in 14 Gauge delivers the DCS signal better, as it travels down many strands of wire to your track.  Single strand wire does not transmit DCS Signal any where near as well.  

PCRR/Dave

I agree with Pine Creek and have same results as Marty Fitzhenry.

If you don't agree, remember it's your railroad and you can run it as you see fit.

This topic is interesting. I will be starting a new layout come spring/summer. Still have some room preparation work to do. I run primarily Lionel but my thinking was to wire the layout for DCS so that if I ever decided to add it, it would be easy and quick.

However, it sounds like many have had success with a buss wire setup and I would hate to go through a lot of extra work and cost with no real benefit.

John, 14 gauge wire can't hurt, whatever you run.  If you have a common buss, 12-gauge should be used for that.

In designing your wiring, if you want to also run conventional, there are other considerations relating to controlability

There are various definitions of buss wiring.  I use a common buss for outside rail, and individual feeds from a control panel to individual insulated (center rail only) blocks.

Am glad to be reading this and seeing the positive experiences with Buss wiring. Our new club layout (40' x 30') wraps around most of our whole room and is wired with a buss. The owner has very little MTH equipment at all and neither do the two other principles.  A couple of us do however so this is hopefully good news!

My TIU is the older version and the other fella who had the Rev L has moved away. We'll have to see where we go from here. At present, my only PS3 engines are the Premiere Southern F3's and Scale Texas Specials along with a RK Scale Santa Fe Dash 8 and a C&O Ten-Wheeler. I've been holding off on acquiring any more PS2/3 units with the uncertainties ahead.

RJR posted:

John, 14 gauge wire can't hurt, whatever you run.  If you have a common buss, 12-gauge should be used for that.

In designing your wiring, if you want to also run conventional, there are other considerations relating to controlability

There are various definitions of buss wiring.  I use a common buss for outside rail, and individual feeds from a control panel to individual insulated (center rail only) blocks.

That is my definition of "buss" as well.

c.sam posted:

Am glad to be reading this and seeing the positive experiences with Buss wiring. Our new club layout (40' x 30') wraps around most of our whole room and is wired with a buss. The owner has no MTH equipment at all and neither do the two other principles.  A couple of us do however so this is hopefully good news!

My TIU is the older version and the other fella who had the Rev L has moved away. We'll have to see where we go from here. At present, my only PS3 engines are the Premiere Southern F3's and Scale Texas Specials along with a RK Scale Santa Fe Dash 8 and a C&O Ten-Wheeler. I've been holding off on acquiring any more PS2/3 units with the uncertainties ahead.

c.sam

Just to add, our club layout was wired with a buss when we started 15 years ago. I think it is 000.

We have implemented DCS on two of the four mains so far using the filters and have excellent signal strength.