Can two Z4000's be wired through one TIU

Paul,

Right now I am using two TIU's with two Z4000's to run four mainlines. Can I eliminate one TIU and run both Z's through one TIU. And if so how would they have to be hooked up to the inputs.

Yes, you can. Connect the four Z4000 outputs got the 4 TIU channel inputs, one output per input.

Change the 2 variable channels to fixed mode:

• Menu/System/DCS Setup, select one of the variable channels and press  the FXD once (or twice, if necessary) to get the message "TIU Channel in Fixed mode"
• Repeat for the other variable channel.

Thanks for the information Barry...............Paul

I have been doing it that way from day one.  No problems.   The two mains I use the most get through variable one and two.

Paul,

    You bet, follow Barry's directions, I now have 3, Z4K's with side receivers all connected to one TIU, next Christmas we will use the 2nd TIU once again.  I do recommend powering thru the Aux, with a stand alone TIU power supply of your choosing.  I use mostly the Gold Banana Plugs with great results, from the Z4K's to the TIU. Same on the out going TIU Channels.

Scotty we need more Power!

PCRR/Dave

Dave doesn't tell you that he's also heating that room with the shelf full of Z4000 transformers.   Clearly a bit more power than needed for the layout.

Guns,

   I am still looking to add a good used ZW-L!

Scotty we need more power!

PCRR/Dave

Just don't wire two power feeds to the same TIU input. You could have one Z4K power inputs 1 and 2 and the other Z4K power inputs 3 and 4.  Also, shouldn't be an issue, but make sure your Z4Ks are in phase.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Dave doesn't tell you that he's also heating that room with the shelf full of Z4000 transformers.   Clearly a bit more power than needed for the layout.

We should have a separate thread discussing what Dave could do with his 1.2 kW of power.   With a ZW-L, he will be getting close to 2kW!  That's some serious arc-welding...

I was wondering that about Dave also.  I'm sure he doesn't have a few dozen locos running at once.  Or, like some politicians in other countries, is he power-hungry

RJR posted:

I was wondering that about Dave also.  I'm sure he doesn't have a few dozen locos running at once.  Or, like some politicians in other countries, is he power-hungry

I estimate Dave can run 8 locos on each channel.  Dave has 6 handles, so with that, he could run 48 trains at the same time!  He would need a lot of track for that.  However, this would only consume about 1,080 watts of his 1,200 available watts.  So, he would still be able to run some accessories off the 120 watts of outputs, but he has a separate 250 watt ZW for those (which I forgot about).

Dave, this is why I don't understand your dislike for the PH 180's.  With the ZW-C and 4 PH 180's, I can run ~32 locos with one ZW.  Add a second and I could run 64 locos!  I know you like the remote control of the handles, but I do that with a Cab-1.  (Oh no, here we go again...)

George

Geroge,

   Actually it's 10.  Also remember I ran DCS for many many years on my larger multi Level layout, never owned a Cab 1, now I have the Legacy/ DCS combined.  I picked up the last Z4k for very reasonable money, less than I could pick up the Brick Type ZW-C, and I also have 3 old ZW's and a couple KW's, along with some old smaller Lionel Transformers for all kinds of different running options.  I use different Transformers on different layouts, and I also lend some of them out, when our US Military families, are just getting stated in our hobby.  Some have also been given away, as I support our Military Christmas Program, on a mostly yearly basis.  There are times we supply a full layout, for Military/Veteran families, to make sure at least one Military family has a truly Merry Christmas.  Some of these Transformers come and go here.  

Scotty we need more Power!

PCRR/Dave

Wow Dave, that is a lot of power!

Nice what you are doing for the military families.  Keep me posted next year when you are putting together your Christmas program.  I may have a few spare power supplies and some track laying around.

George

I guess I have never really understood power very well. All of the trains and loops (which are all interconnected) that you see here are run by one TIU and one Post War ZW with TVS and fast acting fuses added. The SW that you see runs the power to the switches and some accessories. Another DC HO transformer runs some of the LEDs that have been installed in headlights of cars and trucks and other accessories. I have run up to 4 trains at a time on this layout. I believe that Dave is a Maximumist and I am a Minimalist .

It's not that you don't understand power Rick, it's just that Dave is the Tim Taylor of the train set.   MORE POWER!!!

Guns,

   Now that is a good analogy,  seems we have the same political views also!

PCRR/Dave

My feeling is that if the transformer output is sufficient to operate your devices without getting hot to the touch, the voltage dropping too low, or the breaker popping, it's adequate.

Well, Dave's setup is certainly adequate, they're not getting warm at all, the voltage isn't dropping, and I'll bet he doesn't have breaker issues!

May have breaker issues in the basement.

The historical Lionel layout at 10 E 26 St in NYC only had 4 ZWs.

RJR,

   Actually the layout has it's own properly Grounded 30 Amp Circuit with 2 - 4 Wall Plug Outlets, run with the correct size wire & Breaker.  I have never had a problem, not even a popped Breaker.  On top of that my the entire home, is set up to switch over on to our New Powerland Generator when required.  This particular 10K Powerland Generator can run on Natural Gas, Gasoline, or Propane, 24/7 -365.  Hay you want to be able to keep running trains, if your electric power coming into your home has failed, for some unknown reason, don't you.  Especially at Christmas time.  Usually the people in NYC have never had to survive in the back woods, or run a train layout there!  Always over power your layout for the safest & best operating result.

PCRR/Dave

Here is Virginia, Dominion Virginia Power is quite adept at keeping the power on.  In the 4 years I've had a generator, used it only once, for about 15 minutes. 

Actually, I'm more concerned with keeping the furnaces running in the winter than running trains, which is why, over protestations from the wife, I did buy the unit.

RJR,

   I hear ya buddy!

PCRR/Dave

Ranger Rick-

Like your layout- much better than my crappy basement layout!

In your first photo, I recognize the ZW, but the other transformer looks like a TW (175 watts) to me. Just showing my age. It should do the job, though.

Mike, you are correct that it is not the KW....I actually still have that with me now. The one in the picture is an SW!  Thank you for your comment on the layout too.

Rick

So ...How many trains can  you run with one Z4000 and one TIU ,  just had a conversation today with a friend ... Z4000 180 watts each throttle at 18 vac = about 10 amps ea. ~ ?  Do you add trains until the amp meter gets close to 10 amps ?

RickB,

   I never even think about it, I just run what I want, with the power I have, and because of the limited space, even with multi-levels, I never endanger my layout, even with many engines and lighted passenger cars.  In addition my layouts are set up in Blocks using the 12 track join discipline for the DCS, and this also safe guards any power over loading.  In addition I have a couple TIU's I can use for spreading out the power & signals.  The object is to engineer a safely over powered layout, to run most anything you want, with the space you actually have.

PCRR/Dave

 Actually the layout has it's own properly Grounded 30 Amp Circuit with 2 - 4 Wall Plug Outlets, run with the correct size wire & Breaker

Dave, this just sank in.  You say you've got a 30-amp circuit for the trains.  That means 10-gauge wire.  This presents a hazard.  I'll pass on to you what an electrican said to me.  When wiring houses, I always use 14-gauge/15 amp for lighting circuits and 12-gauge/20 amp for receptacles, to assure heavy duty things that are plugged in get enough power.  The electrician pointed out to me the flip side of this, that items plugged in, like lamps, are not adequately protected so there could be a fire.  With 30-amp circuits, and the 16-gauge lamp wire used on transformers, you've got a similar situation.

Just pointing this out:  it's your railroad.  Personally, I I needed more power, I'd go for 2 20-amp circuits coming off the same side of the main line, or for tains, maybe even a pair of 15's.

I assume you've got 30-amp receptacles and use adapter plugs.

RJR,

    30 & 20 Amp Breakers the lines are 12 Gauge, I have no problems with the wiring meeting code.   Everything works perfectly.  Including the Converter Switch Box, for the Generator.  

PCRR/Dave 

A 30-amp breaker on a 12 gauge line does not meet NEC.

I can't imagine why you would run a 30 amp circuit.  First, you need 10 gauge wire, which is really hard to use.  Second, there are no 10 gauge appliance wires in any consumer grade products, including the heaviest extension cords you find at the hardware store. As noted, 12 gauge wire is not code on a 30 amp breaker.  Also, where would you find 30 amp wall plugs?  I could see multiple 15 amp circuits.

A Z4000 at full load pulls 400 watts (likely less).  A 15 amp circuit has a max load of 1800 watts; 30 amp circuit has a max load of 3600 watts.  Even with all of your power supplies, how can you run enough trains simultaneously to draw this much power?  Further, why would you do it on one circuit?

I have run 30A circuits, and they terminate in a big honkin' 30A circular receptacle!  I have one in the garage for a 5KW heater.  I can't imagine running this for normal outlets, and as stated, it sure doesn't meet the NEC.  FWIW, anyone can access a fairly current version of the NEC at Archive.org, here's the NEC 2011 Edition.  You can also download a PDF of it from that same link.

Gentlemen,

   If it make you happy I will put the 20 Amp Breaker in both, the 30 has been in there for many many years, with no problem at all.  At one time the line was used as your was guns, until we rewired including the Recept, and just left the 30 Breaker.  

Good Grief

PCRR/Dave

It's not my house that will be burning, so I can be happy either way.

Dave,

Just as an FYI, the issue is that if the wiring has less load capability that does the breaker, as in 14 or even 12 gauge wire, the wire will burn before the brakes opens.

Code mandates, correctly, that the current-carrying capacity of the wire must be greater that of the breaker.

Gentlemen,

    The line now has a 20 Amp Breaker on it, so it meets code.  Doubt I will ever have any problems with the line.  Probably should have removed the 30 before.  

PCRR/Dave

GRJ, that's not the right attitude.  We have to care for a friend.

Thanks Dave, now I'm happy.  You did move fast.

Some of us who are getting long in the tooth can remember when houses had fuses.    It was not unknown for people who were besieged by fuse blowing to place a penny behind the fuse.  This ended that problem.  Most people lived happily ever after.  Unfortunately, some lived happily for only a short while.

RJR posted:

GRJ, that's not the right attitude.  We have to care for a friend.

Gee, it was a joke!

Guns,

   What RJR is doing is also a joke, although tongue in cheek, and in one section of my work shop that controls the lighting, the old time fuse box still runs everything.  All lighting is LED in the shop now.  Some day I really should put a new Breaker Box in that area of the shop, although it's not really needed.

PCRR/Dave 

Dave, I am glad that you and your family (and trains) are safe again!  

If it makes you feel any better, I did the same thing years ago with my entertainment center (20 amp breaker with 14 gauge wire).  The house didn't burn down, but when we sold it, the home inspector caught me and made me hire an electrician to fix it.  

Also, this is actually better protection for your significant investment in power supplies. 

George

GRJ, I understood that your comment was in a light-hearted vein.

Dave, there's nothing wrong with a fuse box.  My last house (built 1964) had fuses, and I never considered changing the box for beakers.  I would note that many years ago (but in my lifetime) changes were made to fuse boxes to preclude putting a 20-amp fuse in a spot for which a 15-amp was appropriate.  I wasn't joking about the pennies; people did do it.  I wasn't joking that I'm glad we were the cause of you removing a hazard.

George, that was a darn good home inspector.