Christmas 2020...errr...2021 layout _ The Magical Ascent

Design Criteria:

Critical (non-negotiable)

• Modular: Need to be able to break it down in sections for storage and moving. I’m active duty military and move every ~24months.
• Light Weight: The moving thing and storage/packing it up.
• Must be able to accommodate a LIVE Christmas tree.

Non-critical (negotiable)

• Command Control to run two Christmas trains simultaneously with route deconfliction (is that what it’s called?).
  • MTH DCS via WiFi and iPad App. No remotes.

• 4-6 cars per locomotive
• Solid rail track for QUIET-AS-POSSIBLE operation.
  • Considered Atlas-O, Scaletrax, and Gargraves. (designed with Atlas-O thus far)

• Scenery (prefer the “easy” answer here)
  • Minimal buildings/accessories…maybe 5 or so buildings (?)
  • Lots of snow
  • Lots of trees
  • “climbing a mountain” look…steep cliffs and valleys with rocks and boulders

I think this will be broken into four main tasks: (1) building the 6’x9’ platform (benchwork). (2) building the track layout. (3) Wiring. (4) adding scenery/buildings/accessories

1. Building the platform

    

   Given the modular and light weight requirement, I’m not exactly sure how to do this. I want to raise the base platform at least 12” off the floor, preferably 16-20”. Top of the track (and base of tree) is +13” from that. Will also need to construct some sort of pedestal for the tree stand to sit on, which will obviously need to be weight bearing.

   Plywood and 2x4s is the easy answer, but the WEIGHT...ouch. Fortunately, I have an extensive background in composite construction and that may be the answer. Foam-core sandwich laminates may work, perhaps even carbon fiber vs regular e-glass, but carbon gets super expensive really quick. And sometimes the weight savings isn’t all that great after a 3-ply per side layup. Perhaps vacuum bagging panels and then assembling them together somehow like Mianne benchwork.

2. Building the track layout 

    

   I think the way to do this is a giant foam (Expanded Polystyrene ) block, then sculpt it to form. Carve in the track grades, the embankments, the everything. Once done, track verified it fits/works, cut the blocks into sections, like a 3D puzzle. Use the track itself to keep the blocks together…push pins through the track fastening holes etc. Foam would also help with the track noise and possible defer the use of track bedding. I think I may have clearance issues right now so keeping the track as low profile as possible is key.

3. Wiring

   This probably won’t be an issue. I bought Barry Broskowitz’s DCS and WiFi books. I will read those and educate myself on how I should wire this up for DCS. I will need to keep modularity in mind while doing this. I’ve wired two experimental aircraft from zero-to-hero including avionics, so my confidence is high for this task (famous last words!).

4. Scenery

   I’m not artistically creative, so I will struggle here. Probably throw a white hobby cloth over the whole thing, stick some trees into the foam, and call myself a scenery master! I honestly can’t see any of this right now as its too far away…this is a December 2020 problem! 

So, there is my initial going-in game plan. Please fire away, shoot holes in it, “oh you can’t do that stupid” it everywhere. Here are some ideas…Grades are too high. Not enough clearance in tunnels and bridges. Plywood and 2x4s CAN work. You’re seriously going to carve a 6x9x2 foam block? Atlas track and switches…are you a dumb-dumb? Again, I’m brand new with all this and don’t know what I don’t know. As I make progress somewhere with the design, I will update it here for you to see. Thanks!

-Russ

Russ

See if you can find a model rr club near you. You’re likely to find really good ideas and maybe even hands on help.

Beyond that, I’ve nothing constructive. it looks very cool, but very complicated.

Marty

Thanks Marty. I've looked, but it's thin here in Colorado. I'm originally from Maine and as all here know, trains are much "bigger" in the Northeast than anywhere else, especially the Midwest. 

Hi Russ,  I grew up running Christmas trains with my Dad, and now I run 4-6 trains during Christmas, so I'll throw in what I have learned over the past 14 years running trains with kids at Christmas.  

For the train you run around the tree, I think that KISS is the rule to follow.   Kids like to build the track, so keep the layout and power simple, but building a simple layout is a great intro to electricity and STEM.  My experience has been that kids like the remotes over transformers. They REALLY like the remotes.  And the apps if you have a device to dedicate to them, otherwise they will have your phone/pad for hours. Younger kids freeze with the MTH and Legacy remotes, too complex. They want the trains to run FAST, so make as many individual loops as you can fit, unless you don't mind repairing crashes, in which case, add switches.  They LOVE the milk cars, the present cars, the log cars, the ice cars, anything that dumps anything, so invest in operating track.  (But I have boycotted all modern lionel operating accessories, like the sawmill and ice house.  Perhaps the original models functioned well, but every modern version I had invested in died by the 13 month of ownership.) Get empty ore cars and gondolas so they can run their action figures around, and stock cars they can stuff things in.   Buy used.

We've tried fancy layouts under the tree from time to time, but the tree itself gets in the way of train fun. Every. Time. Even elevated and trimmed, consider that a 7-8' tree is quite wide at the base, depending on the species. Also, running trains with kids, you will have derailments. Even without switches. And problems with needles, ornaments, tinsel falling on track. I've had party guests spill champagne on the track. Coffee on the track...tree water on the track..I have a cat who insists on drinking the nice fresh water under the tree, and knocks everything over... onto the track. Do you want to lay down and correct track problems behind and under the tree while nestled in foam scenery on Christmas eve or during a party? 

I've tried to eliminate anything that requires me to make rules about the trains...so if you can imagine a scenario where you are saying, "Now, you can't do it that way or (insert problem here)...".... don't set it up that way.  I set it up so that they can run it themselves and have fun!  

(Then I built my own complicated 6x12 layout in the basement.)

Peg

Thanks Peg. All GREAT things to consider as I go forward! Of course, I won't listen...hahahaha...

I just got my WIU and TIU up and running tonight. I continue to source ATLAS O track. Right now I think I'm going to create my "table" out of foam sandwiched with 3/16" pegboard. Not sure...MTF.

AviatorRuss, I'm curious where you went with this as I'd like to plan/build a tree layout this year as practice for building a spare bedroom layout for the first time. Your baseline design is too complex for me so here are my requirements:

• approximately 6' x 6' (can go a bit bigger in one direction as necessary)
• modular plywood construction (2-3 modules) for garage storage
• MTH Realtrax (i already have a fair amount of this)
• simultaneous two train ops (LionChief; loco, tender + 3-4 cars each)
• interconnected at ground level so trains can trade loops (two switches)
• outer loop stays at ground level
• inner loop climbs about 12" and then descends (mini nested helix?)

I welcome anyone's thoughts!

I missed this thread back in January.  I'd stay away from wood if you can.

I built a modular layout last Christmas.  My structure was 100% XPS foamboard and some Great Stuff spray foam.  I did use 2x4's and plywood for the tree stand itself but the layout was all foam.  After Christmas, I covered the modules in cheap painter's plastic and put them up in my garage rafters.  I plan to use it again this year.

Going back to AviatorRuss's original plan, I don't see why he couldn't carve it out of solid XPS.  Those 4x8 sheets of XPS are pretty pricey though.  I think the 2" variety are almost $40.  If you need stack those to reach 2 feet, then it'll be expensive. 

I would recommend using spray foam where possible.  I used a method I learned from a forum member (ChrisA).  You spray the foam and after it's done expanding but before it sets up, you cover it with white quilt batting and gently shape it.  Then after it sets up hard, give it a coat of white paint (I also sprinkled some glitter on top of the wet paint).  Here are a couple pictures of the building phase of mine and a completed shot:

This is two sections upside down:

Below is a picture of 4 sections (now right side up) and painted white (tunnels blacked out):

Below shows the wood tree stand and the gray tunnel entrances.  The pink XPS areas are where the spray foam will be:

Below shows the spray foamed areas with quilt batting before white paint:

And finally, the completed layout:

@James in VA posted:

AviatorRuss, I'm curious where you went with this as I'd like to plan/build a tree layout this year as practice for building a spare bedroom layout for the first time. Your baseline design is too complex for me so here are my requirements:

• approximately 6' x 6' (can go a bit bigger in one direction as necessary)
• modular plywood construction (2-3 modules) for garage storage
• MTH Realtrax (i already have a fair amount of this)
• simultaneous two train ops (LionChief; loco, tender + 3-4 cars each)
• interconnected at ground level so trains can trade loops (two switches)
• outer loop stays at ground level
• inner loop climbs about 12" and then descends (mini nested helix?)

I welcome anyone's thoughts!

 

And to Russ too, you need to practice grade pulling before planning. Knowing your equipment quirks on grades is important. 

You'll also need command or blocks for running "no hands". Grades require attention to the throttle at all times. (or a reduced voltage block)

I have a grade near Lionel tressel grade (actually less) and its 18ft for 7" rise and my best can only pull 10-12 light cars, or just 3-4 heavies and that is with "modded" track; one rail has detacked two sided tape on it for better traction.

Test your intended trains can handle the grades and transitions (no fast change at top or bottom)

MikeH and Adriatic,

Many thanks! Your words of wisdom have made me realize my multiple errors and exposed me as a carpet loop runner with delusions!  :-)  I took out a tape measure (duh!) and realized that one of my dimensions is limited to 5'. A little math and I realized that rising just 10" using a 5' loop puts me at almost 7 degrees of incline! BTW, my tree is artificial and the x-shaped stand footprint is 21" diagonal.

I think what I'll do is create a 3' x 5' elevated platform out of foam (5 x 2" thicknesses) with a 3" hole in the top layer to allow the "trunk" to pass through. I can then put a variant of the attached layout up top. The platform can have two portals and a connecting tunnel (around the back of the tree stand) to allow for the base level train to run a loop on a 5' x 5' square.

Thoughts? Thanks again!

@James in VA posted:

I think what I'll do is create a 3' x 5' elevated platform out of foam (5 x 2" thicknesses) with a 3" hole in the top layer to allow the "trunk" to pass through. I can then put a variant of the attached layout up top. The platform can have two portals and a connecting tunnel (around the back of the tree stand) to allow for the base level train to run a loop on a 5' x 5' square.

Now you're talking.  I like it. 

I used 1.5" foam.  Using 2" won't hurt anything but it just adds expense.  If you create a few interior supports/braces  inside your platform, then 1.5" will be plenty strong.  I was going to use 2" like you but when I showed up at Home Depot that day, they were out.

By the way, I used Gorilla glue to adhere the foam together.  As you can see from the pics, I built it in my garage (Oct./Nov.).  I'd glue a few pieces, then weight it down or clamp it and let it dry for 24 hours.  It's nice to be able to take your time.  And if you get started in October, then you have time to react if (when) something goes wrong.

Just go for it.  The Christmas layout was the first time I tried something like that.  It was fun.  My kids and their cousins loved it.

Hey guys...thanks for the comments. I haven't done anything over the last 6mo towards this project except except source all my Atlas track. Acknowledge the grade issue...I'm only pulling 3 light cars plus caboose...correct though I still need to test. At some point soon, I plan to set the track up, artificially prop it up to the correct heights (boxes, blocks etc), and test. I'm thinking I might be able to get away with it.

Mike, EXCELLENT idea with the spray foam for the mountains/hills...I'm gonna steal that! I was already onto the XPS idea. I still want to tinker with a light epoxy layup over cheap-ole styrofoam. I have a bunch of 1" sheets in my garage and a bunch of leftover s-glass and about 2 gal of alpha epoxy (NOT polyester or vinyl-ester resins though!). There are also some techniques for using lightweight fiberglass screen mesh instead of fiberglass if you don't need anything "structural."

-Russ

Aviator Russ: Inside joke for you and anyone else who has served. Sounds like you'll be doing an Early Operational Assessment (EOA) prior to your Critical Design review (CDR). Make sure to crosswalk your existing design against your Capability Development Document (CDD) to avoid excessive gold plating and to mitigate technical risks. Also, be sure to book time with CINC House to allow set-up and Operational Assessment in Q1 FY2021. The latter is non-negotiable!

MikeH and Adriatic,

Many thanks again for all your invaluable assistance. Last night I played with SCARM for the very first time and I'm going to start a new thread showing what I came up with and seeing what the folks say. As Keith Moon said to Jimmy Page back around '68, that new band of your's will go off like a lead balloon!  :-)

James, copy all, WILCO!

@AviatorRuss, I tend to agree with the others that your original plan seems rather complex.   Christmas tree running is typically a display style layout so simple is generally better.   Covid has made some materials scarce, so start getting your foam sheets soon.  Use precut woodland scenic risers if you want to save time on elevation changes.   If you're looking to save on cost then cut the foam sections yourself.   In the past I glued two 2" sections together,  then ran them through the table saw for long straight cuts.   This makes a terrible mess but the finished product was spot on. 

For putting foam together I highly recommend Glidden Gripper.  It's  a primer paint but works amazingly well at sticking foam board together.   

Also, you mentioned scenery as your weak suit.  Well, right now is the time to strengthen that up.  Get some foam. Glue , cut, shape, file etc.  Then practice painting.   There's lots of various techniques for foam painting.   Dec 12th is not the day to try them for the first time.  

I highly recommend a practice project.  1' wide by 2' wide is plenty.   But give yourself a deadline,  say anywhere from 3 to 5 weeks,  and make a practice project with a couple feet of track, wiring,  paint and scenery.   It's now August.   By the time the practice run is over it will be mid to late September.   With everything that happens in the fall you will feel the desired date for your Christmas layout bearing down on you like a freight train!  

If you want some inspiration from a total foam novice like I was, check out my Halloween 2017 thread.  I built that layout for fun and simply so I had an excuse on how to learn about working with foam.   

Have fun my man!!

@jhz563, I appreciate all your input and ideas here! This thread belongs to @AviatorRuss but I've benefited as much as he has from all the guidance and dialogue. I tried to create my own Christmas layout post so as to not "threadjack" this one but that didn't get much love . . . which is the case for most spinoffs . . . except The Jeffersons!  ;-)  My proposed layout has two flat levels with a pair of interconnecting ramps but I don't know how to get that third dimension in SCARM. Any chance you could look at it in terms of feasibility?

Bringing this one back to the top.

NEW TTILE:

Christmas 2020...errr...2021 layout_The Magical Ascent !!!  hahaha...

More to follow before Christmas. Basically, it's complete minus scenery, that's next years project! Standby for pics and a video!

I failed miserably to get this done in 2020. Lots of (valid) excuses, but I just didn't get to it/finish it. I was plagued by track problems...keeping connectivity through the aggressive slope changes. Several mentioned this would be a problem; you were correct. So, two weeks before Christmas 2020, I ended up designing and building a layout a single day (20hr day). Pretty simple, but effective...my kids loved it!

BUT...

My wife hated it. "Why is that train so F#**% loud?!?!?! Yes, my wife has a potty mouth! It was on Fastrack because that's what I had and could build out quickly. All my Atlas track was sitting in a pile of concentric circles stacked on top of each other held up by carboard boxes! I love Fastrack for it's simplicity, but HATE it for it's noise. I keep it for carpet layouts, and that's probably the only thing I'll ever use it for after hearing the near-silence of Atlas solid rail track. Wow, it is absolutely noticeable.

Context: while I'm typing this (Dec 23, 2021), my boys (3 & 5) are enjoying not one, two, but three toy-train sets simultaneously! They are both fanatical about trains, but my little one is ludicrous-fanatical about trains. IT IS ALL HE TALKS ABOUT! (and this is my fault...lol)

Ok...actually...let's start with Christmas 2019. This is what got me thinking about going all-out with trains at Christmas. (testing a basic design on carpet). I only had a single LionChief 'Construction' train starter set. This remains my youngest's *FAVORITE* train!

Which then evolved into this around the tree. I set this up on Christmas Eve 2019, so when the boys came up the stairs that Christmas morning, I had the train running. They were beside themselves. The priceless video, with all the facial expressions, will be cherished forever. (not gonna upload those videos, sorry).

So, onto Christmas 2020. This was the 20hr design and build. I started with the idea from an older model train magazine about Christmas layouts. It was called 'twice around the tree' or something like that. This guy built a full-up 2x4, plywood, and MDF layout for vintage tubular track. I can't find the article or I would link to it. I used 1" and 2" XPS foam, hot glue, and a flush-cut saw.

Anyway, here's what 2020 looked like. Overall success, but not what I had intended after so much work on the failed layout. BTW, the raised platform was completed and used here, and I'll detail how I built that in the next post.

placeholder for 2021 layout

Looks great!  I'm sure the boys enjoyed.  Hope you got the 2021 layout the way you wanted!