Consist derails at switches

Track and switches appear to be all Ross. Has to be the consist. Is the engine derailing?

I have only Lionel switches, so I can't speak with Ross experience,  but back when I had a lot of derailments, I shot some videos with my iPhone on slow-mo. After watching a slow-motion video or two, I determined that slight warpage in my substrate (pine lumber) had created a situation where the subject switches had to be shimmed slightly. I started out shimming with small post-it notes, then switched to a small piece of cedar shingle. Problem solved!

You might also try moving cars to different spots in the consist and see if the problem moves with it. That will tell you if it's a car problem or something more systemic as experience above.

Hi all thank you for the input. L

locomotive is not derailing.

I will look into the shims approach’s

not sure if my consist is too long at 8 hopper cars? I am going at a very slow speed and it appears as if derailment happens at car #6.

all 4 Atlas hoppers 4 MTH

2 k-line hoppers

so that’s 10 cars and the locomotive.

it happens all throughout cars 2 - 8

It looks to me that your switches may be situated in the middle of a slope / grade.  Your first photo, in particular, seems to show a sharply-peaked joint leading to the straight side of the switch.

It might be inconvenient for you to change at this stage of your layout construction. But the best practice is to make sure a switch is on 100% level track, and probably the immediately adjacent track section(s) should be level, too.  Gravity works 24 hours a day.  If gravity is pulling wheels, axles, trucks downward toward the center of a curve, the flanges will be riding against that rail and looking for the first opportunity to diverge.  The weight of the trailing cars may also be pushing on the trucks / couplers of the head end cars.  You're not going to win this battle.

Another important thing to think about is vertical easements.  This refers to the transition from level track to graded track.  I have scoured the internet and there's not a good concise mathematical formula to follow for the heights of risers supporting the plywood sub-roadbed.  But the general rule is that your first "step" should be very small, and the steps should naturally and gradually increase to a manageable gradient (usually 3% or less.)  This means you'll need MORE space, to acheive the same total increase in elevation.  The inconvenient truth is that it takes a LOT of space to incorporate multiple levels into a layout, and have it run reliably.

I hope you get it solved.  It would be better to redesign if necessary than to live with continued frustration and unreliable operation.  My $.02.

Make sure that you don't have a binding truck. You could also try adding weights, just to see if you get an improvement.

switches need to be on a flat surface. if on a grade, all three tracks connecting to the switch need to be on the same grade, a flat surface. The grade can then change away from the switch, a car length or more away.

I need to put the OP’s pics up on my desktop screen for a better look when I get home, but it sure looks like some kinks/uneven track through the grade transition.

I run three rail O gauge trains on the basement floor for various reasons. Holes thru walls that will have to come down anyways for various reasons. O-72, O-81, 0-96 tubular, with K-Line O-72 switches.  Just counted, 19 cars of mixed Lionel Standard O, Lionel modern, MTH, K-Line, Atlas, + MTH SD40-2 dummy being pushed by a Lionel SD70m. Last derailment was caused by ~1/4" gap when two straights came apart, track not tight enough.

I don't think the length of your train is the issue.

Thank you all for the suggestions and recommendations. I will definitely review any gaps in the connections on the track. And I will also break out my level just to confirm. As during construction, we were very meticulous in ensuring that we were building all aspects of the layout Level.
I really like the recommendation for weights because those hoppers are ABS plastic. Maybe that might help. I will keep you all posted. Please keep any suggestions and recommendations coming. If I need to post additional pics, please let me know.

I suspect the plywood is flexing when the loco goes ove it an knocks the cars loose.

Gunny

I started this post a 5:45AM but had to stop and go to work, but here are my thoughts, some of which have been likewise mentioned by others since the early morning:

AWP, you should easily be able to pull 8-10 cars, and at a pretty good clip. I don't ordinarily run over 30 scale MPH, but my trains do run reliably. The most I can fit is about 30 cars with 2 locos. More locos looks impressive but then I have to drop cars due to space. I've run as many as 5 locos on a riprap train with weighted gondolas, and yes...with granite right out of the driveway.

I was very frustrated early-on expecting too much out of switches somewhat torqued to fit MY plan. Unfortunately, my plan was not the switches plan. I have since positioned them at places where they are on the same plane. Not level at all, but under equal influences.

In the video, the train going happily up a 8.33% grade. I checked it twice before starting this post.  (yeah....steep but it works and I needed to get over an obstacle). There are 4  parallel  tracks on this grade a short distance from a level bridge. One is the main, one passing track, and 2 storage tracks. It also works a bit like a hump yard. You will note early in the vid there are 2 switches, also on the 8.33% grade....and a few shingles... I never have derailments there. After the steep grade, the rails trend slightly downward back to level on the bridges.

Anther point that allows this to all run pretty trouble -free is that, with the exception of the tank cars and one or two others, all these cars are weighted to ~ 20 ounces or more. The flats have real marble blocks. The covered hoppers are full of popcorn. The box cars are full of rocks  in bubble wrap. What ever I can shove in the door.

So my hunch is that once you level, shim, re-support as needed, I think adding last some weight to you cars is going to help. Weight and lubrication or bearing journals!

Good luck!!

Bob

Bob thank you for the thoughtful and intentional as well as detail oriented response. I agree I believe the weight of the cars appears to be an issue. I removed all of the hoppers from the consist off the double reverse loop. And I solely tested just the locomotive this afternoon. Ultimately, it was trouble free With the exception of needing to switch various switches in the proper direction for the desired route. I’ll have to find a way to add some weights to the hoppers on this particular consist. Thanks again to you and everyone who put time into helping me resolve my issue. Wishing you a very happy holiday season. Sincerely, Anthony

For an easy way to add weight, go to a tire store and get some wheel balancing weights. They come in different weights and are adhesive backed, They will have pails of used ones also that you can add loose or use your own adhesive. Usually, for the used ones, the price is just right.

AWP34, you're very welcome!

John, that is an excellent idea. I've always wanted to add some weight to the tank cars but never could figure a good way. I'm going to try that!! Thanks!

Thank you both for the suggestions.
The ABS cars seem a little light. Hopefully weights that resolve the issue. Going to run the locomotive with a few die cast cars today to test the theory. I’ll keep you posted.

I had trouble when my roadbed crossed joints in the sub roadbed.  Wasn't QUITE level.  The straightedge wobbled over the joint.

I solved it by sanding the roadbed until the straightedge didn't wobble.

IIRC, NMRA O scale standards call for 5oz plus 1 oz per inch of length (you can double-check that online). I have a kitchen scale (demoted from the kitchen). I put the car on the scale and pile spare screws, nails, nuts, scrap etc. until I reach the right weight. Then I put the hardware in a zip lock plastic bag inside the car. Before I had the spare scale, I borrowed the kitchen one. If you don't have a kitchen scale, buy one for your wife. They are better for dry measurements than volume, especially when baking.

For flats and gondolas, I glue flat steel bar either under the car, or under a load. Again, weigh the bar on the scale, then calculate the length to cut off to make the NMRA weight.

Ken,

Thanks for the info. I had seen 20oz once on this site, so that's where my number came from. I may have taken that out of context at the time, but my cars aren't squawking.

I might add that a new digital kitchen scale would offer a high degree of accuracy, and they are not expensive. An old spring-loaded, analog type scale that us geezers (speaking for myself...LOL) grew up with may have a +/- range of accuracy that precluded hitting the NMRA mark. I'm not an engineer, but QA has been drummed into me after working 40 years in industrial environments....

The single best thing I ever did to improve “trackability” and eliminate derailments was to weight my cars to the NMRA standards. It made a HUGE diifference.