Engine pickup roller pin issue - any advice?

Walt

if you still have the pin, I read an article for just such a fix. put the roller in slide the pin threw and then put a small bead of solder on one end to hold the pin in place.

If your handy with a soldering iron this should be an easy fix.

Thanks

Popi

I'm TERRIBLE with soldering!

What I'm doing right now, which is intended to be VERY temporary, is kind of like what you said but I'm using that candle-wax like product from Scenic Express.  I'm not confident of it holding up though.

Maybe I will find someone good at soldering and ask.

It's really puzzling though - how it's held in place.

- walt

Walt, I'm not familiar with your equipment, but if I'm visualizing it accurately could you do this?  If there is enough length to the pin could you slip on a tiny washer, then a tiny blob of JB Weld??  Be sure to clean that wax off well with some solvent first.  Good luck.  Hope you can get it running some way. 

Trains: the pin BARELY makes it thru to "exiting" hole.  There is no extra length.

I have JB and maybe that it a better temporary solution than me using the candle wax (if that's what the product is called).  Thanks for mentioning it.

- walt

Walt,

I'm only familiar with prewar so this is a little out of my league. Check your piece to see if the end of the pickup has not spread out. This might be what's causing the pin to be too short. Give a search for, gunrunnerjohn. Good Luck! my friend.

God Bless,

"Pappy"

Thanks for jumping in Pappy.  The pin is NOT too short - it extends thru the 'exit hole' as far as the one that is still in place.  It's only a micrometer but it does fit all the way thru correctly.

I will get it fixed eventually - I just HAVE to find a way to make it thru the Christmas season while my layout is up.

thanks - walt

Hey Walt,

The weather turns to winter and the black clouds show up again:>)  I'm assuming that the pin is solid and for whatever reason, the 'force fit' holes in the roller holder are now too big?  I don't recall the exact application, but I do remember having a problem with a pin slipping out of holder.  I took a pair of pliers and gave the one end a good squeeze so it wasn't a perfect cylinder anymore.  Then when I pushed it back in the holder, it was wider than the hole and locked back in.  The JB Weld might be the solution also- put the pin in and then a dab of the weld on each end of the hole to keep the pin from coming out.

The pin is probably just pressed in with an interference fit. Put the roller and pin in position and distress the pin at the center of each end with a center punch. You will need another set of hands to help hold everything in position on your work surface, and some soft rags to wrap the loco for protection while it's being maneuvered for the punch process.

Walt

was poking around and found this;

http://www.lionel.com/media/su...ent25/25Complete.pdf

some postwar locos have a pin with retaining clip on the end.

scroll down about half way, it shows the pin and clip. you could retro fit a clip from

parts guy, Jeff Kane ttender.com

or maybe from a hardware store.

I had one come loose and used a pair of Channel Lock plyers to simply flair the one end. Be careful, too much pressure could bend the pin, or force the roller yoke to bend.

A possible solution to consider would be a small nut and bolt, say 2-56 or whatever size may be close to the roller hole size.

Larry

Walt,

I would make a few phone calls to some of the local MTH dealers. This could be a easy repair. Find out who would do it for you as you wait in their store. Call Mercer Jct. I believe they have a repair person there all the time.

Looks like the set is a repro of a Prewar set, and the original locomotive had a 2 piece roller and pin assembly.

Larry

Yes Ken, the black cloud has found me again!  Wait til I post pictures next Friday of what I had to do last night to my partially completed layout - 5 hours of wasted time to find "something" (not the pin and roller).

The pin is solid.  I thought about doing what Rob suggested but as he said, with one set of hands I couldn't pull it off.

Popi: I'm 100% certain that there is no retaining clip on the pin.  One is still in tact so it's an easy compare.

Mike - bending of the pin is something that I am concerned about.  it's one reason why I haven't "smashed" or "whacked" it on the "exiting end" to try to flair it.  The pin is heavy metal, thick, so I am questioning if whacking it will do anything.

Larry: i have been thinking if there might be another solution, at least for a Christmas time fix.  Thanks for the suggestion.

Jim S.: That's a really good idea - I'll call around and see if anyone can fix it.

I was worried that if it's a "press fit" that I might have to get the entire assembly replaced.  But then I thought "what a stupid design that would be to NOT allow for a roller to be replaced."  But I've seen dumber designs before !!!!!

GUYS:  thanks SO MUCH for the suggestions.

On last thing: I don't work with JB Weld hardly ever.  My concern there is that if I put it on it won't come off to all for the permanent fix which I do plan on having done.  Will it come off?

thanks again - walt

JB-Weld does come off if you really want it to.  Perhaps you could take the pin out and give it a light "whack" on the end on an anvil (back of your vice?) to add some friction to the fit.

Guns,

   I have fixed a couple of these in that manner, however some of the new pins were made short, so he must squeeze the bracket slightly also, what he really needs to do is order the complete new set up or find an old broken Lionel car to steal the original longer pin from.  Broken Train show stuff for the fix parts.

PCRR/Dave

Depending on this specific roller pick up the whole size is different on each side, having said that, it is easy to drill and use a PW pin.  Just stake it after it is installed.  No reason to use the same pin if it broke.  No need to use glue or epoxy.

In fact this is a better approach to replacing rollers because that pickup assembly is a bear to get out and in.   G

Thanks for contributing John, Dave, and GGG!

Dave: you said "in that manner".  What did you mean by "in that manner"?

The roller just fits inside the bracket so pinching the bracket to TRY to make the pin "longer" isn't possible.  The pin only sticks out a micrometer, if at all.

I hate to go thru the expense of replacing the entire pickup assembly.  I had to do that with my Blue Comet last year because the piece that held one of the rollers actually broke off!  It was warranty work.  I know from that experience that I will NOT try this on my own.  I don't remember the tool but there is a special tool (a spreader???) that makes the job 10000% easier from what I was told.  Plus the soldering, which I stink at.

This design is really BAD if it's this hard to replace a pin!  Certainly the designers couldn't ignore that rollers wear out and need replaced at times, right?  Right?  Really, right? 

I will consider PW pins but GGG what do you mean by "staking it"?  Is that the clip that Popi referred to?

I still think my best bet is to do what Jim S. suggested and call some repair shops.  I know that the one closest to me, which did my Blue Comet repair, did not leave me with a very cozy feeling.  When a guy doesn't know whether to get the part from Lionel or MTH, well that's outright scary!!  Especially after he sees it and says "Oh, new tin-plate?".

-= walt

Walt, could you post a close up picture of the underside of the loco with the roller pickup assembly in question? Thanks.

Larry

Walt,

Order a replacement pickup roller assembly as suggested, then:

As a temporary fix, try your local hardware store for a "finishing nail" of the approximate diameter.  Slid the nail through the pickup roller framework and roller and measure for the length needed and leave a little extra.  Cut the nail to length and reinsert back into the loco.  Now take a pair of "Vice-Grips" and flatten the 'little bit extra' you left on the nail so it will not slide back out.  Do the 'flattening' proceedure in two or three steps as it might take the grip of a Sumo Wrestler to flatten it all in one go...  Flatten once, tighten vise grip adjustment, flatten some more, repeat.  Lubricate your repaired collector assembly!

Finishing nails are cheap, buy 2 or 3 for practice.

Run train.

Replace entire asembly when your parts order comes in 

Best,

Dave

Dave,  That assembly for his engine is not an easy replacement.  You have to spread the chassis against the rivets, or disassembly.  Even than getting it in requires prying and trimming the collector base.

What I do when I get those in now and the rollers are worn is grind the end of the pins off with a dremel tool on both ends.  Drop the pin and roller.  Drill the one small dia side with a drill to open it up.  Install a PW roller and rivet.  One side of the river has a head.

Walt staking means, peening the other side of the rivet to mushroom (like a rivet) so that it stays in place.   Works great and takes much less time to do.  Next time even faster since the hole is now drilled. G

Dang it anyways, the ONE picture that I wanted to be clear is blurry - it showed how there is no extra pin sticking out of the "exit hole".  But I'll post it anyways.

- walt

Dave: I wonder if that would work.  The pin itself is fatter than the very tip that fits in what I am calling the 'exit hole'.  That probably is to ensure good, positive contact with the inside of the roller itself, I would think.

I suppose I could Dremel the exiting part of the nail down to a thinner diameter.

Good suggestion for a temp fix.

- walt

GGG: I remember you being one of the people that helped me with my broken pickup assembly on my brand new Blue Comet in January.  You were the one I believe that alerted me to the difficulty of trying to do this repair.

After a few of the warnings I called a repair guy that I used and he too said it required a spreader tool.  That sealed the deal for me - send it to someone that knows what they are doing (wish I had done that!!!!  See comment above about the guy that I went to).

I have sent an email to one of the repair shops (Mercer Junction) asking if they could fix it while I wait.  Haven't heard back yet.

- walt

Walt,

   In reality this is a delicate fix and maybe with your luck sending it out to be fixed might be the best way to go.

PCRR/Dave

This is the spreader tool needed to replace the entire shoe assembly. With the tool, replacing the entire assembly is not too difficult. Similar repair to the postwar 2034 locomotives, for example.

Larry

A spreader like that wouldn't be that hard to make. I need to replace some sliding contacts on a nice 1666 that I have. If I screw up I will let a repairman do it.

Walt,

Did you try putting the pin back in from the other side? Maybe it would tighten up that way.  Also, if you don't want to use the jbweld, you could put a piece of tape over the pin end and on the holder.  I use some double sided which is really sticky and holds to metal.

quote:

A spreader like that wouldn't be that hard to make. I need to replace some sliding contacts on a nice 1666 that I have. If I screw up I will let a repairman do it.

There is no reason to spread anything / remove the collector plate to replace the shoes (sliding contacts) on a 1666.

I insert a small tool, such as 1/8 inch screwdriver, or a small metal ruler between the shoe and the contact that pushes down on it / holds it in place. Gently lift the contact away, and the shoe will slide out.

Reverse the process to insert the new shoe.

Walt, Perhaps you could get some 2-56 bolts long enough.  Put either 2 nuts locked together or one nut with loctite on the end.

let me see if I understand the problem:

The pin slips out of the roller and bracket.

The pin can only be inserted one way because the end of it is a smaller diameter then the rest of the body.

Therefore the following should be correct:

The holes in the arm that holds the roller /pin should be two different diameters, requiring that the pin always be inserted in the same direction.

If this is true, then the setup of this collector assembly is similar to what was used on a number of postwar collectors. The smaller diameter end of the pin should be peened over to keep it from sliding out of the hole. If the end is damaged, so there isn't enough left to peen, perhaps one can be ordered, or maybe a postwar one would fit.

Otherwise, I'd go with a screw, as has been suggested already.

The last thing I'd do is replace that whole collector plate.

Walt, another idea is to use a small brad.  Clip off the pointed end after insertion, leaving just enough to bend 90 degrees without touching the track or frame. 

Another idea is to go to a hobby shop and look at the telescoping brass tubing.  With a cutting pliers, clip one end, and it will give you a flat head that won't slip through.  Insert in bracket, and clip other end.

Personally, I find the standard rivets to be a real pain to work with.

C.W. - you have it correct regarding the varying sizes of the diameter of the pin.

Ken: I tried tape, didn't hold.  Also, it can't be inserted "the other way".  Even if I drilled a larger "exiting hole" (the original one) the fact the end of the pin is a smaller diameter than the body would mean that it would wobble in the "new exiting hole".

I can't believe, I really can't, that the design of this thing is this bad!!!  Almost like everything else anymore it's almost impossible for the regular, non-trained hobbyist to do a repair.  Very frustrated at the design.

- walt

Forgot to post these.  Better images of the 'exiting' side of the pin that was requested.

- walt

Dumb question, since other solutions don't seem to be doing it, how about cleaning up the pin and side plate and soldering the pin in?

John,

Soldering was discussed WAY up top and my response, basically, said that I STINK at soldering and would save it as a last resort - which is about where I'm at!!!

As always, thanks - walt

Assuming that the roller spins around the pin and the pin is stationary-

how about a drop of super glue at the end of the pin?  I'd clean up the metal with

some acetone first and then put on a drop - maybe the thicker stuff so it doesn't run down and hit the roller.

HI Walt  try checking your local Ace Hardware supply  ....they should have rivets that size and they Evan have rivets that you do not have to peen! just spread the outer ends  and you should be good to go.. they look like split rivits   Good -Luck...DANiel.....